Kiss of life?

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Originally Posted by Travs

Whilst i understand where you're coming from on this point, not everyone on here is ancient....

I'm still in my 30's (for another 6 months anyway!)..... ba-ba is younger still, and maybe in his 20's still (and someone suggested above that there are no high-level runners posting on here, i think they are doing ba-ba a massive dis-service). In the aftermath of the Dragons Back this year, we had very interesting forum posts from two of the top 6 finishers.

Calvin used to post on here, and may still do occasionally, he must be late 20's-early 30's and a regular poster on the facebook page too.

It's certainly true that there is quite a lot of familiarity on here, and indeed i think i've met the majority of regular posters on here at least once.... but even the small number of regular posters on here come from a wide geographical area with a wide variety of backgrounds.

I totally agree on some of the off-topic/political posts and whether we like it or not, this is a forum linked to the FRA and it does not reflect well. However this does seem to have calmed down a great deal, due to either the odd banning, and the disappearance of a couple of the more volatile posters on such subjects.

Also agree on the lack of female voices... but you can't force people to post or join up if they don't want to, and i don't think it's necessarily a stick that can be used to beat the forum down. We could do with more regular posters, male or female...

On the subject of anonimity... i'd have no problem posting under my real name... i think most people on here know who i am, and i know who they are... not sure everyone would be in agreement though.

This is probably an old-fashioned view... but i get the feeling a lot of people would rather spend time on facebook discussing shoes and lightweight jackets... its the easy option, rather than thinking about training harder, learning race routes, losing a couple of kg (would make so much more difference than buying a shoe which weighs 25grammes less!!)...

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Part of my point is that to an outsider, there is no indication of who anyone is, how old they are or where they are based. It would be far more welcoming to potential new members of the forum, if all contributors were open about their identity. Many of the 20,843 members of the FRUK FB group are not fell runners and it would be great to make this forum a go-to place for folk who genuinely want to learn about the sport.

Of course, another significant consideration is future moderation as Brett takes a step back.

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Originally Posted by Charmian

Part of my point is that to an outsider, there is no indication of who anyone is, how old they are or where they are based. It would be far more welcoming to potential new members of the forum, if all contributors were open about their identity. Many of the 20,843 members of the FRUK FB group are not fell runners and it would be great to make this forum a go-to place for folk who genuinely want to learn about the sport.

Of course, another significant consideration is future moderation as Brett takes a step back.

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This Forum has had some very dark days through several incarnations and I have never read a sound justification to defend anonymity - but I have seen many instances of why malevolent posters wished to hide their true nature.

I may know the names of most of those posting behind pseudonyms but a newcomer to the Forum cannot - and that is a real barrier to the growth and health of a FRA Forum, which some on here claim to support.

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Originally Posted by Charmian

Part of my point is that to an outsider, there is no indication of who anyone is, how old they are or where they are based. It would be far more welcoming to potential new members of the forum, if all contributors were open about their identity.

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I appreciate the positive sentiment behind your reasoning. However, we don't have to be out of favour Russian oligarchs, or political dissenters from totalitarian regimes to want to be cautious about providing that level of personal information online.

I work for/have worked for, a variety of psychiatric services dealing with 'clients' who have significant, long-term, complex, mental health issues and often work alongside colleagues from the criminal justice service, probation, social services, etc. Sadly, as professionals in such fields we have very good reasons to ensure that our personal details are not broadcast and thereby kept separate from our professional identities.

How to contend with such concerns?

For me the demise of the forum has gone hand-in-hand with the various episodes of shouty arguments. And some of the main perpetrators of these have been people who have been happy to share their names.

So I suggest there are three issues here:
1. It looking like an old boys club that isn't open and friendly
2. It's a bit dated in the way it handles rich media content (photos and videos)
3. We sometimes get into drawn out debates/arguments that put people off

Mandating us to show our real names would probably help with number 1 (and might address 3 a bit). But we'd need to fundamentally change the way the forum is set up and moderated to fully address number 3.

Also we'd need agreement of why we're doing it. I'm sure there are quite a few of us on here who like (some of the) debates we've had. Where would/should we draw the line?

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Originally Posted by Charmian

Part of my point is that to an outsider, there is no indication of who anyone is, how old they are or where they are based. It would be far more welcoming to potential new members of the forum, if all contributors were open about their identity. Many of the 20,843 members of the FRUK FB group are not fell runners and it would be great to make this forum a go-to place for folk who genuinely want to learn about the sport.

Of course, another significant consideration is future moderation as Brett takes a step back.

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Or we could all do as Charmian and myself and many others have done - keep the Tag but sign posts with your name and club

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Originally Posted by noel

For me the demise of the forum has gone hand-in-hand with the various episodes of shouty arguments. And some of the main perpetrators of these have been people who have been happy to share their names.

So I suggest there are three issues here:
1. It looking like an old boys club that isn't open and friendly
2. It's a bit dated in the way it handles rich media content (photos and videos)
3. We sometimes get into drawn out debates/arguments that put people off

Mandating us to show our real names would probably help with number 1 (and might address 3 a bit). But we'd need to fundamentally change the way the forum is set up and moderated to fully address number 3.

Also we'd need agreement of why we're doing it. I'm sure there are quite a few of us on here who like (some of the) debates we've had. Where would/should we draw the line?

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Good points there Noel.

Correct me if I wrong (gently please as I know you will :) ) but isn't the forum simply reflective of the direction of fell running in general (from what I've read on here), that it's an increasingly minority sport with a disproportionately and increasingly aged, blokey participants? Of course, it might be argued by some that this is in part the fault of this forum, for driving away a more diverse and expansive range of participants - but I don't really think we're that influential !

Having been a visitor to this Forum and since joining in 2018 I believe it is a welcoming place for new members/posters, even though there haven't been many of them!

Lets be careful what we wish for!

FRUK Facebook page may have 20,843 members but the moderators regularly have to take down posts and have had to put up with personal abuse.

The last 2 years have been difficult for all, with Brexit and Covid causing folk to get hot under the collar, and posting comments, that on reflection, perhaps they wished they hadn't and I include myself amongst them.

However I think we have all calmed down and become more tolerant of others views and Wheeze's "Kiss of Life" appearing to have had the desired effect.

I am all for change and agree that the Forum needs updating but not at all cost's. From a technology point of view I haven't a clue what can and can't be achieved but I'll do my bit by keeping posting.

But remember. Be careful what you wish for!

Yes i think it's a bit of a myth that this place is unfriendly... i can't think of an example of a new poster receiving anything other than friendly comment/advice.

Sadly during testing times (Brexit, Covid, etc), posts relating to those subjects become busier than the fellrunning topics... and obviously contain some heated debate (and worse).... the casual observer would see these and avoid this place... it's quite sad that everybody then gets tarred with the same brush... especially when the majority of those who couldn't stop arguing are no longer active on the forum.

I lurk now and again on this forum, dont run now apart from parkruns following bowel cancer in 2018. I organize a couple of fell races still though. The forum has so much on-line competition now,I bet most new to fell running dont know of its existence.

I think most people would agree that there have been some pretty objectionable threads and posts over that last few years, none of which show either the forum or FRA in a good light and would no doubt be off-putting to potential new posters. I for one thought about deleting my account and shuffling off during the worst of it.
There's obviously a need and great benefit in sharing information not only on fell running but related topics e.g. training but I think more specific guidance on what is acceptable backed up by appropriate moderation is necessary. I have no problem with not being anonymous - more transparency usually leads to greater accountability. Anyway, there are a plethora of social platforms to air whatever views you may have if you don't like it.

On Facebook - yes it is a good source of information if you can find your way through the dross but I for one refuse to use it and there are others who cannot use it (and other social media platforms) for professional reasons so hopefully it won't be thought of as a potential replacement.

We also need to be mindful that this site is public and if it remains that way, should be inclusive to all users with an interest in fell running and especially welcoming to those users we seek to attract. I don't believe it conveys such as it currently stands.

Two thoughts.

Facebook is so pervasive these days, although like PeteS I refuse to use it, I suspect that the majority of people looking for fell running information or online interaction probably gravitate to facebook (or should that be meta) and don't even give the forums a second thought.

Another forum I frequent does not allow any political or religious discussion. Specifically to avoid any ugly arguments on those topics. General chat about anything else (unrelated to the main forum topic is no problem) flourishes. The no politics or religion is actively moderated with polite notices from the mods and threads locked where necessary. I think this rule is a real benefit to maintaining a (mostly ;)) friendly and harmonious community there.

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Originally Posted by dnf

I lurk now and again on this forum, dont run now apart from parkruns following bowel cancer in 2018. I organize a couple of fell races still though. The forum has so much on-line competition now,I bet most new to fell running dont know of its existence.

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Sorry to read about this dnf. Hope that you have managed to make a good recovery. Getting to the parkruns is a good sign.

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Originally Posted by Mossdog

... that it's an increasingly minority sport with a disproportionately and increasingly aged, blokey participants?

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I don't have recent data on the average age of FRA members but, off the top of my head, the % female members is as high as it has ever been (20%?), the % of females on the Executive Committee is similarly at a peak (when I joined in 2002 it was zero) and of the 16 FRA Chairs, two of the last three have been women.

I’m really in favour of being able to easily upload pictures, having a like button and a real name policy. But there again I’d really like the forum to grow and become a thing again. Most of the points being made here not to change are probably because those forumites are quite content with the way things are - a cosy little chat with people they sort of know. The lack of female members (millepede excepting) on the forum or indeed any of the front of the pack in any fell race speaks volumes. A no religion and no politics rule would be fricking excellent too

The forum really needs a full on makeover I think and it’s great to see that the FRA are really considering this. One things for sure though is with Brett retiring surely it will be the new way or the no way?

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Originally Posted by Charmian

Part of my point is that to an outsider, there is no indication of who anyone is, how old they are or where they are based. It would be far more welcoming to potential new members of the forum, if all contributors were open about their identity.

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As someone of mixed-race I know what abuse is. I also know that everywhere on the internet there is a small percentage of trolls, bigots, racists and worse. For this reason I will never use my full name or a photo on the internet, especially in a format that is open to the entire world. In a sport such as ours, which is predominantly white, I think this is the way not to go if we want to increase diversity (in all its forms).

Anonymity works both ways. Yes, it can offer protection to trolls and worse. It also protects those on the receiving end of abuse as they can report it, (and log off if they feel necessary), but feel safe in the knowledge that they can't be traced

You'll be easily traced Marco, whether anonymous or not.

We just need to look for a bloke, hanging around HS2 building sites, on his bike! ;)

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Originally Posted by Llani Boy

You'll be easily traced Marco, whether anonymous or not.

We just need to look for a bloke, hanging around HS2 building sites, on his bike! ;)

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Ha ha.

And any Forum that makes me laugh gently can't be all bad.:)

I admit I have never felt any need to look at facebook mainly because I have never enjoyed wasting time trawling through dross before finding what I am looking for and that is how this forum used to be and when I first joined the forum I could quickly find what I was looking for and if not I was confident that if I asked a question then a quick friendly response would be forthcoming.

However I feel that the forum is no longer like that when a newcomer novice fellrunner first opens the forum they are confronted with a bewildering menu that to a novice with quetions to ask the menu offers no starting point just the oppurtunity to randomly click on threads that may offer some answers but more likely than not wil intimidate and confuse them.

As has been said the whole forum requires a shake up and made more welcoming with a much less busy opening menu, so that novice users can feel their way around without trawling through threads they find confusing or intimidating.

Another specialist subject forum I subscribe to achieves this by having a a two tier membership system i.e. a novice registers on the forum and then when they decide they like it then they apply for full membership whereby they are sent an online membership form on which they record their details and then when the form has been processed they are given full membership and a membership number (which is displayed on the thread with their forum name etc therefore if need be the forum administrators should know the true identity of the member even if they are using a pseudonym on the forum). and gain access to the members only section of the forum where there is an even greater centre of knowledge and experience + members discounts for goods from various suppliers of products of interest to the members.

Plus one on no politics or relgion, I really see no point in like buttons etc much nicer and more friendly if you like something to just say thanks.

On the subject of photographs I think a link to photographs would be preferable to cluttering threads up with pictures that may or may not be of interest.

John i think just about all your points are very good in the post above.

However when i joined the forum, i was impressed by the layout... i think it's fairly simple and navigable... not sure how much more you can simplify General/Races/Training/Equipment/Other Races/Off Topic/etc.... there's even a sub-heading for Beginners. That all seemed very helpful to me at the time.

Interesting thoughts about "no politics, no religion ". Those items have bruised us and turned people off the forum. And yet I have greatly valued being able to have debates about non fell running topics with like minded folk. I would never post thoughts about such subjects on an open platform like Facebook. But being able to chat and test positions within a closed group has been of value to me. However, the great repository of experience and advice about fell running is perhaps to valuable to risk on the face of the acrimony that such debates can engender. Thoughtful moderation would be key to managing this. Buts it's a thankless task. Who would want to do it? I salute those who do, and have stood on this barricade.

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Originally Posted by Travs

John i think just about all your points are very good in the post above.

However when i joined the forum, i was impressed by the layout... i think it's fairly simple and navigable... not sure how much more you can simplify General/Races/Training/Equipment/Other Races/Off Topic/etc.... there's even a sub-heading for Beginners. That all seemed very helpful to me at the time.

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Travs I think that possibly one of the biggest problems is that so many of todays threads go off topic and often the newer posts have little relevance to the thread title.

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

Interesting thoughts about "no politics, no religion ". Those items have bruised us and turned people off the forum. And yet I have greatly valued being able to have debates about non fell running topics with like minded folk. I would never post thoughts about such subjects on an open platform like Facebook. But being able to chat and test positions within a closed group has been of value to me. However, the great repository of experience and advice about fell running is perhaps to valuable to risk on the face of the acrimony that such debates can engender. Thoughtful moderation would be key to managing this. Buts it's a thankless task. Who would want to do it? I salute those who do, and have stood on this barricade.

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Wheeze I feel keeping a Forum true to it`s cause is key to it`s long term survival, for my part if I want to debate an alternative subject with like minded folk then I seek them out where you would expect to find them e.g. Religion then a church or religious forum/website is where I would head for.

You are right the grass roots of this forum are too valuable to be put at risk.

On the anonymity issue, I always get a great buzz of satisfaction when I manage to work out the identity of some forumite who doesn't use their real name. [Marco and Mossdog can rest assured that I haven't (yet) worked out their identities.]

More seriously, anonymity shouldn't be a problem if there is a moderator who can remove someone who is being abusive, regardless of whether they are using their own name. But as Wheeze says, moderating is a thankless task; I certainly wouldn't feel able to do it.

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Originally Posted by anthonykay

…But as Wheeze says, moderating is a thankless task; I certainly wouldn't feel able to do it.

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Believe it or not I’m a moderator on this forum (imposed on me really - for sure I didn’t and don’t want to do it). I moderated one post (and one post only) because I thought it would stir up trouble only to have my moderation unmoderated by another moderator on the forum :rolleyes:. Haha moderator wars

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Originally Posted by Fellbeast

I moderated one post (and one post only) because I thought it would stir up trouble only to have my moderation unmoderated by another moderator on the forum :rolleyes:. Haha moderator wars

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Well, that's an intriguing post to start the day well:)

Stolly poacher turned fellbeast gamekeeper! Smart move. Tell us, has the experience enlightened you in any way? Does becoming a moderator result in you becoming more moderate?

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

Stolly poacher turned fellbeast gamekeeper! Smart move. Tell us, has the experience enlightened you in any way? Does becoming a moderator result in you becoming more moderate?

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If I’ve had a problem it’s maybe that I’ve always been ‘moderate’ in the face of less than moderate views, unlike perhaps many here in the past. And I’d argue that a good few of my past thoughts on some of the forum’s most contentious issues have funnily enough turned out to be pretty darn spot on in fact. I won’t list them so as not to open old wounds :cool:

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Originally Posted by Graham Breeze

I don't have recent data on the average age of FRA members but, off the top of my head, the % female members is as high as it has ever been (20%?), the % of females on the Executive Committee is similarly at a peak (when I joined in 2002 it was zero) and of the 16 FRA Chairs, two of the last three have been women.

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The total FRA membership is at an all time high with almost 8500 members of which 23% are female. The percentage of females increases as you move down the age groups which is understandable given that in the early days, the sport was dominated my men. So the percentage of females is:

Up to age 40 32%
Up to age 30 37%
Up to age 20 44%
Up to age 18 46%

I would say that the future of fell running is very healthy and inclusive and we should also celebrate the participation of minority groups rather than hiding behind anonymity. The article about Adnan Khan in the Fellrunner was excellent and he was a recognisable contributor to the FRA Forum.

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Originally Posted by JohnK

As has been said the whole forum requires a shake up and made more welcoming with a much less busy opening menu, so that novice users can feel their way around without trawling through threads they find confusing or intimidating.

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A few days ago someone mentioned EOD on one of the Races threads, and it jogged my memory to 12.5 years ago.

When I started I gleaned all my knowledge of the sport from this forum. Along the way I found something that took me to somewhere with forthcoming races.

I was able to work out AS and AM etc from the race distance and ascent, and even cracked LK somehow. With EOD, however, it took me two months to crack the code. This was critical to me, as back then I worked a lot of weekends but sometimes only got told this on the Friday before - ie less than 24 hours notice.

I do understand why people abbreviate, and miss words out, to save time in the knowledge that the majority know the term. If we want to make this friendlier and more useful to newcomers, however, we should be careful to make sure we are not using terms, or abbreviations, that are not in every day parlance.

What we could do, probably in the Beginners section, is make a single post thread called something like 'Glossary of terms' to explain abbreviations such as this. If the thread was then locked and made into a sticky thread then it would always be visible to novices.

In the General Fellrunning Issues section there is a thread called 'Reference Guide' created by 'TheGrump' in 2010. It's a great idea, and very useful, but some of the links no longer work correctly so it needs updating

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Originally Posted by Marco

What we could do, probably in the Beginners section, is make a single post thread called something like 'Glossary of terms' to explain abbreviations such as this. If the thread was then locked and made into a sticky thread then it would always be visible to novices.

In the General Fellrunning Issues section there is a thread called 'Reference Guide' created by 'TheGrump' in 2010. It's a great idea, and very useful, but some of the links no longer work correctly so it needs updating

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Or an up to date WIKI where all the knowledge for the frequently asked questions, such as WHAT SHOE etc can be found, and hopefully any one new to the sport will look there first before posting the question on another new what shoe or whatever thread.

It would also give old hands a reference point to send newcomers for information

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Originally Posted by Llani Boy

You'll be easily traced Marco, whether anonymous or not.

We just need to look for a bloke, hanging around HS2 building sites, on his bike! ;)

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Excellent overhead photo of the HS2 route in South Cubbington Wood (Warwickshire) in the Business section of the DT today. Lots of buildings and diggers on display.

But no awestruck cyclist is visible.:)

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Originally Posted by JohnK

Or an up to date WIKI where all the knowledge for the frequently asked questions, such as WHAT SHOE etc can be found, and hopefully any one new to the sport will look there first before posting the question on another new what shoe or whatever thread.

It would also give old hands a reference point to send newcomers for information

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I am thinking of selling T shirts with the slogan.

The answer is Walsh.

So what's your shoe question?

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Originally Posted by Charmian

The percentage of females increases as you move down the age groups which is understandable given that in the early days, the sport was dominated my men. So the percentage of females is:

Up to age 40 32%
Up to age 30 37%
Up to age 20 44%
Up to age 18 46%

I would say that the future of fell running is very healthy and inclusive and we should also celebrate the participation of minority groups rather than hiding behind anonymity. The article about Adnan Khan in the Fellrunner was excellent and he was a recognisable contributor to the FRA Forum.

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Regarding female participation, that's brilliant news.

Your comment 'rather than hiding behind anonymity' is unfair and unnecessarily barbed and, importantly, trivialises some genuine concerns folks might have about using their real names online.

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Originally Posted by Charmian

I would say that the future of fell running is very healthy and inclusive and we should also celebrate the participation of minority groups rather than hiding behind anonymity.

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It looks like you either haven't read Mossdog's or my post properly, or you have chosen to put your opinion above our safety

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Originally Posted by Charmian

The total FRA membership is at an all time high with almost 8500 members of which 23% are female. The percentage of females increases as you move down the age groups which is understandable given that in the early days, the sport was dominated my men. So the percentage of females is:

Up to age 40 32%
Up to age 30 37%
Up to age 20 44%
Up to age 18 46%

I would say that the future of fell running is very healthy and inclusive and we should also celebrate the participation of minority groups rather than hiding behind anonymity. The article about Adnan Khan in the Fellrunner was excellent and he was a recognisable contributor to the FRA Forum.

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In races which have a full range of junior age groups (particularly BOFRA races, but not exclusively so), the younger age groups often have a female majority. But there seems to be a reduction in female participation through the teen years.

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Originally Posted by Graham Breeze

Excellent overhead photo of the HS2 route in South Cubbington Wood (Warwickshire) in the Business section of the DT today. Lots of buildings and diggers on display.

But no awestruck cyclist is visible.:)

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Too far south for young Marco...

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Originally Posted by Travs

Too far south for young Marco...

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Nah. We cyclists...the second bidon and an extra gel and only the sea can stop us pedalling.:)

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Originally Posted by Marco

What we could do, probably in the Beginners section, is make a single post thread called something like 'Glossary of terms' to explain abbreviations such as this. If the thread was then locked and made into a sticky thread then it would always be visible to novices.

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Aaaaaaahem! https://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/show...y+fell+running

I think Marco and Mossdog both make very good points about anonimity.

I have family members, and indeed know people in the fellrunning community, who can't have certain social media accounts due to their professional lives.

Of course everyone should be accountable, and i'd agree with needing to register personal details to have an account.

Also wouldn't have an objection to people being "politely encouraged" to have clear details of who they are, without it being compulsory.

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Originally Posted by mr brightside

Aaaaaaahem! https://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/show...y+fell+running

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Well pointed out

I didn't notice it, as it hasn't had a post since 2009 and isn't a sticky thread, and I can never seem to get the search facility to work as I want it to (I can never find what I'm searching for with it)

I did look through the thread, and I didn't see EOD or LK and other such terms, so I think the point I raised is still valid

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Originally Posted by Travs

I think Marco and Mossdog both make very good points about anonimity.

I have family members, and indeed know people in the fellrunning community, who can't have certain social media accounts due to their professional lives.

Of course everyone should be accountable, and i'd agree with needing to register personal details to have an account.

Also wouldn't have an objection to people being "politely encouraged" to have clear details of who they are, without it being compulsory.

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I think there is an even bigger group of people, that we haven't mentioned, who may be unhappy to identify themselves: women. In view of the number who have received harassment, threats and worse, I can see good grounds for some of them not wishing to reveal their identity.

'Politely encouraged' is not a bad idea, but compulsion is