That sounds like a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
It would be interesting to view a graph of the number of participants in the various forms of British Champs. over the years (although I'm not going to research the subject).
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That sounds like a good idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
It would be interesting to view a graph of the number of participants in the various forms of British Champs. over the years (although I'm not going to research the subject).
Well, at the last British Champs race in September, i finished 30th overall.
That should not be happening under any circumstances.
Actually there are two proposals... a one-off race around medium distance, or the separate short/long races.
Interesting that this has been put up on Facebook "The Fell Runners Association" page, but not on the FRA Forum here.
I've no skin in the game. I've always been in the final 3rd of the field whatever the level and if I've run in a champs race, it's only because I had coincidentally entered.
I suppose it's as a coach I had more interest, as I coached athletes that were contenders in junior champs and trials, some won national titles and international vests.
It does interest me though, having given my thoughts through official and unofficial channels in the past.
MRAG - The Mountain Running Advisory Group - it's part of UKA/British Athletics - I was involved for about 5 years as the English Junior Rep.
It might technically have some remit for the British Champs (and Relays) but I tend to think it should keep out and leave them to the Home Nations bodies.
This is domestic competition. They might like it to be, but it isn't really for those chasing International vests.
Change if needed, but leave it to the FRA, WFRA, SHR and NIMRA or whoever looks after NI now.
One only needs to look to the trials.
The elites attend, but the numbers aren't high.
I'm one of a few on here with exposure and involvement in T&F, Cross Country, Road and Fell.
Can anyone point to British Championships in other disciplines?
You'll struggle, because where they do exist, it seems as a bit of an afterthought.
For example I think we have a British Marathon Championship incorporated in to the London Marathon recently. But what about a GB/UK 5k, 10k, or HM Road Championship?
In Cross Country we have the English National which is the big one, with the other nations having equivalents. But where is the GB/UK Champs?
In Track and field we do have UK indoor and outdoor champs, but the idea that they attract the elites is a bit stretched.
Mo Farah for example, last won a British Track title in 2011.
So UKA or GB Athletics as it is now branded, really seems to have no interest in UK/GB Championships in any discipline as exampled by the lack of them.
So my instinct says they should be done bottom up, not top down.
There is definitely something distinct about fell.
It's very heavily Vet orientated with many Vets still good enough to contest the Senior titles.
Vets and Seniors run together, where in other disciplines we often see Masters events for the Vets.
Champs events seem to be about the whole club, a big day out, such as we see at the National XC Champs, or the 6 & 12 stage road relays.
It doesn't seem so long ago that I used to see complaints on this forum and on Facebook about Champs races filling up quickly.
Maybe that's where to look to reform.
It's nice to move races around to make them more interesting. A National Cross Country at Marl Pits would be awesome - but the venue couldn't cope with it.
The main issue I see for the Champs is that they needed to stick to venues that can support large fields. If the Limits are so small that entries are closed within hours, then that in time will reduce the interest from those individuals that miss out, but also from their clubs as they can't all go and enjoy the event together.
The British Champs format does need to change - when just one women's team completed it in 2022 and not a single women's vets team - so those medals went unawarded.
For the record, i filled in the survey, and my vote went for the one-off race per year.
(there were options to vote for keeping it as current, and some other minor amendments)
"Interesting" indeed. Given the recent discussions within the FRA about how to make the forum relevant to members, this seems like another opportunity missed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Good to see the British champs being revamped though. Hopefully it will get some more interest.
Without looking at the numbers the British has been on a road to nowhere since home nations introduced their own champs.Quote:
Originally Posted by BillJ
(I have two English medals so perhaps I am biased but) it seems to me that if I were a Scottish runner I would want to be known as a champion by my local Scottish running peers - not by someone who lives in, say, Cornwall.
But attitudes vary. I interviewed one triple British Champ. who took the view that only the British mattered and so he didn't bother with the English. "Why would I bother with the English Champ. when I can win the British?"
But I interviewed one multiple English Champ. and he said he didn't bother with the British but "left it so **** could win it every year"!
I would suggest that biggest barrier to participation in the British Champs is the distances to be travelled and associated expense.
Especially if you live in Northern IrelandQuote:
Originally Posted by Llani Boy
Before my involvement, but it sounds likely it's one of the factors.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
It probably also doesn't go down well with many Female competitors when an athlete from a decade or so ago won titles unfairly and had results supposedly annulled, but they are still listed as English and British Champ and the ladies robbed of the appropriate medal haven't been upgraded or recognised.
I voted for option 2. I like the idea of having a short and a long category. It always seemed strange to me that those runners who excel at short fell races (which are akin to a 10k race), or those that excel at long fell races (which are more like a marathon) can't be champions at that distance.
I never got a vote or even knew about it. One of the downsides of not being a Facebook Warrior, or whatever it’s called these days�
I get this. There are plenty of us who can't use Facebook for professional reasons and probably an equal amount who just prefer not to. How can anything be declared a democratic decision when you don't inform the entire electorate?Quote:
Originally Posted by Llani Boy
I don't actually think its a "vote".
It was just a survey and you could indicate your preference at the end.
But your points still stand.... i'll try and post the survey up on here....
Proposals...
Edit: It appears you do need to be logged into facebook to read the proposals document.
Survey....
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1F...gwqXg/viewform
For anyone who wants to complete the survey, then the final question...
MRAG Proposal Option 1: A one-off race over something like medium distance.
MRAG Proposal Option 2: A separate Long & Short race, one in England, and the other rotating the other nations each year.
I'm not on facebook. It's on the front page of the fellrunner site as a news item:
https://www.fellrunner.org.uk/news/2...onships-format
Yes, front page of the FRA website, went up at the same time as the Faceache post. Should be sufficient to catch as many eyes as possible. It'll be bumped again a few times between now and end of March. Figured it'd make its way here pretty quickly anyway and the wider populace could drive the discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
Thanks for sharing the link. To me, that's a well thought out and reasoned consultation, r3ecommendations and survey. There will be a range of views and it is not possible to please everyone, so it is good to see that the rationale for change is explained and the survey is seemingly designed to gather information about preferences and priorities and not merely a choice between the two recommendations.
The thing that has ground my gears the most about the FRA English and British is that you can't enter it unless you can run long distance. Secondary to this is the issue of all races being Cat A, which i think is a mistake, so i've explained that in the survey. If the British was one race at medium length i'd probably do it.
1 x SQuote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
1 x M
1 x L
For Club and Individual at venues that can support minimum 500 runners. I would aim for them to be A Cat, but can see that there are some good B Cat that could be considered such as Stan Bradshaw local to me.
All individual Champs races and then possibly have an overall for combination of all 3 for individuals only.
Wouldn't that work? We have differing endurance distances on road and track.
I agree. I thought it was a useful illustration of the issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by benshep
Like everyone else I have an opinion on what a Fell Running Championship should test and once upon a time I had some influence on that. Twenty years ago a championship which didn't include Wasdale or Duddon Valley etc wouldn't have been worthy of the name but times change and the task for MRAG is to come up with a formula that today's runners will turn up and support - and then to denote that formula as The Championship.
Purity is fine but it is usually trumped by pragmatism.
Whatever they do, i think its still going to be overshadowed by the English Championship, which i think the vast majority are still going to see as the "one to win".
Hello Nic,Quote:
Originally Posted by ba-ba
Are there plans to send out the survey by email or even post to FRA members? Will members be balloted? (I am not suggestion there is an obligation to do so.) Both proposals represent a fundamental change to the British Champs, so my concern is over consultation process.
Full disclosure of my own bias: I don’t favour either option & would actually prefer it remains as it is or increases to six (3 or 4 to count).
Another concern I have with proposal 2 is that it seems to heavily favour runners at English clubs. I am struggling to see how this will increase participation from NI, Wales & Scotland based clubs.
I do understand that a one or two race format may attract more runners & better prepare top level athletes for international competition, though I don’t think that’s what Champs races have to be all about.
I don’t doubt the good intentions of the MRAG & the FRA on this. It reads as a thoughtful & well considered proposal. My voice may well be a lonely one here - I am an also-ran who will be little impacted in a competitive sense, regardless of changes or not. Thanks for the hard work you & others do at the FRA.
Well in cycling proper riders win Grand Tours or the Classics but there is also the World Championship for those who can only sprint for a few hundred metres and bother to turn up on the day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
But the wearer of the rainbow jersey feels no shame and neither will future winners of British Championship medals.
Maybe I'm not on the same wavelength as you with the term "classics" but I seem to remember a few of them being won by those who can only sprint for a few hundred metres and bothered to turn up ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
Totally agree.... and i'll dine out on the fact that i managed a top 30 in a British Champs race for the rest of my days!Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
I think the one (or two) race proposals are a great idea as it will return the British Champs to an event with a consistently strong/elite field (as seen at the one-off race at Dufton a year or two back).
On a slightly different subject, i note that the Inter-Counties course is a purpose-designed route this year, designed to aid in selection of the British team for the Mountain World Champs.... whilst i totally understand the reasoning, and i absolutely love the Howgills, i think its a stretch to call it a genuine fell-racing course.
I've an outside chance of making our county team, and while if selected i'll wear the vest with great pride... but on a course which is basically a couple of laps around Winder and Arant Haw, i would really fear coming stone dead last with no proper climbs or descents to slow the cross-country guys down.
Interestingly back in (I think) 2011 I was asked if I could find somewhere with mainly dirt tracks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
Spec for men was 3 climbs, near 1800ft of climb over 12 km for the World mountain Running Trials for the event to be held in Turkey.
So we held them at Witton :D
8 mile 1800ft
It was a fast course, but tough.
The powers that be were so "impressed" I was asked to host the Inters a few years later in 2014.
It wasn't for the purists :D
I seem to remember Graham sat on the sun at the finish straight. Can't remember if it was the Inters or the Trials.
I'm edging towards the Inters as it was certainly hot.
Probably an indication that runners are not really "fell" runners at the Inters is that I was criticised for not having a drinks station on the course :O
The word "fell" still puts the fear of god into some very good runners though...
I'm no longer taking care of our county team... but still have contact details of some of the top runners in the county...
I asked one recently if he might want to be considered.... i won't name names, but he's recently ran on the road for England, finished (very) high up at the National XC, and ran in GB mountain trials before...
His response was "i won't be fit for the fells".....!
He would probably finish in the top 10.
Whilst it wasn't me that brought cycling into this discussion, I should point out that what you said is not correct; here are the winners for the last 11 yearsQuote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
2012 Philippe Gilbert - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2013 Rui Costa - Grand Tour stage winner
2014 Michal Kwiatkowski - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2015 Peter Sagan - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2016 Peter Sagan - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2017 Peter Sagan - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2018 Alejandro Valverde - Grand Tour and classics winner
2019 Mads Pederson - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2020 Julian Alaphilippe - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2021 Julian Alaphilippe - Grand Tour stage winner and classics winner
2022 Remco Evenepoel - Grand Tour and classics winner
Two of these riders have won a Grand Tour, and all of them have won at least one stage of a Grand Tour. Only one of these riders has not won a classic race. And if we went back over 50 years, we would see names like Armstrong, Bugno, Lemond, Roche, Zoetemelk, Saronni, Maertens, Hinault, Moser, Merckx and Gimondi - all Grand Tour winners and top riders.
Whilst we're talking about two very different sports, 50+ years of evidence in cycling suggests that in a one-off race the title is going to be won by a top athlete, if not the top athlete of that year.
Marco, as always I respect your views but I did write "win Grand Tours" not sprint to win a stage in a Grand Tour, like Sagan (the rider that spoiled brat Cavendish got DSQ from a Tour after Cavendish did something selfishly stupid - but no surprise there).Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
And of course I know about Bugno, Gimondi etc but that is a long time ago and I am talking about today's events - just as we are with the British Fell Champs.
Btw I have always had a soft spot for Valverde - despite his drug taking. I suppose that's my forgiving, generously spirited, caring nature showing through.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
It was the Inter-Counties. Obviously my trip to the park named after you was memorable.:)
I thought the comparison to the cycling world championship was a good one and I'm sure Graham's comments were a little tongue in cheek. There isn't really an equivalent of a grand tour in fell running but you would have thought those riders who were there or thereabouts on the one day classics in any given year, would be strong contenders at the Worlds. I think Marco's list supports that and I don't see why that would not play out in fell running too.
I personally like the idea of a single short and long race but like others on here, I'd be concerned it would alienate non-English athletes under the current proposal.
There's a lot of difference between a short race and a long race, so if I was still racing I'd support one race for each.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
In the interest of fairness, I think if two races were adopted then they should both rotate through the four nations, so each nation would get one of the races every other year.
The British Championships are under the control of BA/UKA MRAG and the proposal on the British Championships is from them.
The consultation survey has been devised by the FRA to gather the thoughts of the FRA membership, FRA being the representative body for English fell running. FRA will then feed back to MRAG. It has been put on the FRA website and facebook page, and there will be a mailshot to club reps in the near future to publicise around clubs.
The Intercounties is now (and has been for a while?) the 'Intercounties Mountain Running Championships' and as such is now more fully marked and traily than it might once have been, and sometimes used as a Trials race.
As has been mentioned, it's a balance between purity and pragmatism. We don't expect a nice simple answer from the survey, but we need to get people's viewpoints. It also means that there's eyes on this proposal and people know what's happening - I wouldn't want something like this to be perceived as being 'snuck through' - by FRA or MRAG!
That's all good.Quote:
Originally Posted by ba-ba
I suggest what will be the more interesting aspect of this process is the response from the other representative bodies.
A phrase which gets to the heart of the whole issue. The FRA was set up to serve UK fell running. [And indeed the FRA fixture list still lists several Welsh and Scottish races (but then, the WFRA fixture list contains a fair number of English races, so that doesn't prove anything).]Quote:
Originally Posted by ba-ba
Thus, the FRA originally only organised a British Championships (or Fell Runner of the Year, as it was then titled). Then the Scots, the Welsh and the Northern Irish all set up their representative bodies for the sport in the 1980's, leaving the FRA to retreat south of Hadrian's Wall and east of Offa's Dyke, which has left the British Championships in its current limbo.
In the mysterious zone between sleep and consciousness this morning I remembered that when I first got into cycling, (40+ years ago), there were two world championships; there was the official one-off race, already fully discussed, and the unofficial world championships called the Super Prestige Pernod.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Prestige_Pernod
In the years from 1969, to its finish in 1987, every winner of the competition won at least one Grand Tour at some point in their career, and the list of names is stellar:
Merckx (7 wins), Maertens (2), Moser (1), Hinault (4), Lemond (1), Kelly (3), Roche(1)
I think you would agree, Graham, that this is probably a list of the biggest stars from the 1969-87 period. It was a season-long competition, based on a lot of races, with ( I think I remember correctly) more points for more important races, with Grand Tours having the most.
The reason I have posted this is that Merckx, Maertens, Moser, Hinault, Lemond and Roche are on both lists; they won both season-long championships and one-off race championships. In other words, in cycling at least, you can't stop a top athlete from winning.
MarcoQuote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I will always defer to you on cycling history but the period you cite ending 1987 is now over 35 years ago and the sport has changed beyond recognition - not least in the focus on money now mattering more than anything else.
Well yes...but the FRA from its foundation had been operating (problematically) outside the aegis of the athletics bodies and after the AAA in 1978 had unilaterally formally declared that fell and hill running came under its control then only affiliation would resolve the differences and this did not come about until 1982 from which other developments in terms of other national bodies were inevitable, including national championships.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonykay
For a long time it would be fair to say that the "UK Athletics" body (who remembers the British Athletics Federation?) wanted authority over, despite not having any interest in or capability to organise, fell running matters and it seems to me that current arrangements are far better than in those bad old days.