101 uses for a mobile!

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Originally Posted by novice

Or people without a mobile phone should be made to carry change to use in a phone box

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Ain't seen many of them on top of kinder?

Think if you are stuck on top with bone sticking out of ankle the problem would be getting help (or to a phone box). I know they have that provision in the dark and white MMM who say mobile phone or change for phone box but I have not quite understood the change rule apart from summoning help for a fellow contestant once you finally find a phone box.

Is GPS allowed at the Edale Skyline? I only ask as my phone has built in GPS and therefore not allowed at many races where I also have to bring a phone? Oh what it a techno geek to do?

I have to admit I understand the organisers decision. Not sure or even bothered to think if I agree or not. He is putting on the race for our benefit so we should abide by the decision. If someone asked you to take your shoes off at the door would you do it (and stick to their house rules) or scream nanny state?

Scurries off to put his really small thin lightweight phone in kit box(yes I have more than one)

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Originally Posted by AndyJ

Organisers of fell races take responsibilty and make decisions concerning the welfare of those who take part in their events.
I have made it perfecly clear above my reasoning behind this move.

One other decision I have made is that you/xrunner and anyone else who do not like this decision are not welcome at the skyline.

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Does that mean you are going to reject entries of runners who do not like your decision?

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Originally Posted by david

If it is the case that emergency calls don't work across networks then I suggest that carrying a mobile phone in a race will be of dubious value for many of us, unless race organisers are going to start specifying which mobile network we must be using for their particular race :rolleyes:.

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I think that any organiser who asks runners to carry mobile phones should make reasonable efforts to advise runners of network coverage. This already happens with the WHW race but as you might expect, due to it's length, continuous coverage from any network is always going to be in doubt.

There's absolutely no point in being required to carry a phone for which there's no network coverage.

(Another thread on the 999/112 myth here: http://tinyurl.com/2kznug)

[QUOTE=AJF;91699]Ain't seen many of them on top of kinder?

Think if you are stuck on top with bone sticking out of ankle the problem would be getting help (or to a phone box). I know they have that provision in the dark and white MMM who say mobile phone or change for phone box but I have not quite understood the change rule apart from summoning help for a fellow contestant once you finally find a phone box.



I said it tounge in cheek based on dark and white. I haven't done the MMM but they say when you do the mountain bike trailquests you should have change for the phone box. I always imagined myself crawling miles with a broken leg to find the phone box and then it would be vandilised!

So I always carried a mobile phone and can't see what the problem is

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Originally Posted by david

Very true Daz, but no-one in any position in any walk of life should be, or even think they should be, above criticism.

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thats a fair point but if andy feels its right i think we should back him , i think its unacceptable that a person who has took it upon himself to step up and organise something thats rewards so many people should be criticised, its a bloody phone for gods sake, sorry getting a bit carried away but if i was andy i would be fuming at some of the attitudes.

im not saying im all for it but lets at least back the INDIVIDUAL in case here.
i carry my mobile with me on most runs , carried it at rotherham and some other longer races that ive done, i just dont see a problem with it on these longer races

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Originally Posted by daz h

i just dont see a problem with it on these longer races

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I agree with Wheeze that it's the thin end of the wedge. What's next - GPS, tent, sleeping bag? And, as we have discussed, many mobiles simply won't work anyway.

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Originally Posted by david

I agree with Wheeze that it's the thin end of the wedge. What's next - GPS, tent, sleeping bag? And, as we have discussed, many mobiles simply won't work anyway.

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no we have maps and compass to navigate with and as for tent and sleeping bag thats just silly

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Originally Posted by daz h

no we have maps and compass to navigate with

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Until some health and safety/risk assessment/accident insurance jobsworth decides we'd all be a lot safer if we used GPS.

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Originally Posted by daz h

and as for tent and sleeping bag thats just silly

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I really hope you're right.

As far as safety of fell runners is concerned, no matter where you draw the line running up wild hills in wild weather will be dangerous. Insisting on a mobile will of course be helpful in certain circumstances but at the other end of the silly scale just not letting anyone run at all is even safer.

I started this thread not to negatively criticize but just have a bit of a chuckle; Andyj as an organiser obviously has to worry about the runners safety but the indemnity wording on the entry form has already got all the runners to agree to death as part of the race ;)

Like I said my O2 mobile phone (which is actually my employers) will be absolutely of no use to man or beast and I will stand a bloody good chance of breaking it, if its in my bum bag and I slip over on one or two descents.

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Originally Posted by david

I agree with Wheeze that it's the thin end of the wedge. What's next - GPS, tent, sleeping bag? And, as we have discussed, many mobiles simply won't work anyway.

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Forget the GPS, like a map & compass it's only as good as the person using it.

If you want to see a big kit list check out the three peaks yacht race runners kit

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Originally Posted by david

Until some health and safety/risk assessment/accident insurance jobsworth decides we'd all be a lot safer if we used GPS.I really hope you're right.

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Why should be bother with GPS, tent, sbags or even phones when some people don't even carry full body cover, map, compass, etc

RRR springs to mind as the most recent. Weather forcast appaulling-was there a kit check? it didn't seem so to me.

I reckon I've only had my kit checked 6 times this year in approx 30 races, I'm not talking about short races but med or long where you cross open country.

We have a requirement when we enter a race to carry the stipulated kit, reguardless of whether we think it's neccessary or not. I'm often surprised at the lack of kit check in many races. Even last year at the skyline where we knew the weather was going to be...interesting, there were runners trying to get away with not taking kit or taking kit clearly not adequate for the conditions. We had two kit checks one at the entry and spot check at the bridge where one or two runners were found to have 'lighter' bumbags than when they were checked at the start.:eek: despite the warnings.

A number of people were helped off the hill or dropped out because they were cold and suffering, I'm not saying they weren't prepared because the weather was as we know awful. But how many more people would have got in to trouble if we hadn't had a strict kit check?

One of these days a race organisor will get in to a lot of trouble because someone is going to have an accident and get in to a serious situation. If they haven't had a proper kit check it will come back to the organisor.
Insurance for races will get harder and more expensive if we don't do a proper kit check.

is there an FRA policy on the actuall check it's self

Nanny state or common sense?

comments?

Stands back, ducks with hands over head

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Originally Posted by Chris

One or two of you have come close to saying it.

Mobile phones in fell races. Bollocks.

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I'll second that.

I have nothing against anyone wishing to carry their mobile when out running or racing, personal choice - fine. I chose not too 95% of the time, and would go nowhere near any event that it was compulsory to carry one.

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

One of these days a race organisor will get in to a lot of trouble because someone is going to have an accident and get in to a serious situation.

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Are the FRA Safety Rules being used to protect the runners or the organisers?

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Originally Posted by XRunner

Are the FRA Safety Rules being used to protect the runners or the organisers?

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Probably to protect both. Also to help the people that might be tasked with rescuing someone from a tricky situation.

But the problem is that when a rule is brought in at one race, it quickly becomes common practice.
I am one that often runs with my mobile anyway.

But lack of such technology has already created a problem with 3 peaks entry. Will we all be required to enter online before long?

That's life though - remember buying houses in the 80's and the damp proof course requirement. It soon came to pass that all houses had to have one even if the house didn't need it.

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One of these days a race organisor will get in to a lot of trouble because someone is going to have an accident and get in to a serious situation. If they haven't had a proper kit check it will come back to the organisor.

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I honestly could not see this happening if it ever went to court.

If the organiser of a race stipulates that certain kit must be carried and all entrants of that race are clearly informed of this then that's as much as the organiser could reasonably be expected to do. In my opinion a kit check is above and beyond what a reasonable court of law might expect.

If an accident was to happen and this accident was deemed to be down to some lack of required equipment how exactly do you envisage an organiser getting into a lot of trouble given that participants have been informed of risks and responsibilities?

I am assuming that race entrants are all adults in the eyes of the Law, if children were involved there would be much more of a Duty of Care from the organiser towards them.

Havin nearly frozen my balls off on the latter stages of the Tour of Pendle, I'm all for compulsory kit requirements. Even in the summer the weather can be awful (the first half of Borrowdale this year) and I'd imagine we've all seen weather turn from lovely to god awful in no time at all, so starting conditions or weather forcasts can't be used as reasons to not take the kit either.


A mobile though isn't what I'd call a kit requirement.

This is what you sign up to for the Edale:

"I confirm that I am familiar with the requirements of the Edale Skyline Race. I also hereby absolve and discharge and undertake to relieve and indemnify the organizer, officials and advisers of all liability for any death, injury or loss I or my family or other dependants may suffer while participating in or attending the Edale Skyline Race or as a consequence of my so doing. I understand the nature and effect of signing this document, that it has legal consequences for me and my family and dependants and that I have had time to consider it and take legal advice on it before signing. I declare that I am an amateur as defined by UK Athletics Rules. I am at least 18 years old on 30 March 2008 and take part in the Edale Skyline Race entirely at my own risk. I understand that the Skyline is a long distance race over difficult terrain which requires navigational skills and it may be held in poor weather conditions".

Given all of that, I think the organisers are absolutely in the clear, should a competitor unfortunately have a very bad day.

It was mentioned we will not need GPS in the future due to having a map and a compass.

So why do we have whistles? I was guessing it was to summon help in case of accident?

p.s still not bothered if I carry a phone. Although carried one for the RAB and I managed to break it. New model Samsung worth £300 new. Could buy a few whistles for that!

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Originally Posted by jmacewan

I honestly could not see this happening if it ever went to court.

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This situation has occured in a New Zealand race:

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..race organiser Astrid Andersen walked away from the Christchurch District Court on Friday relieved that she had escaped a prison term but was sentenced to pay a $10,000 fine after being found guilty earlier this month on a charge of Criminal Nuisance. The conviction resulted from the death of a competitor, Vanessa Caldwell in the 2001 "Le Race".

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Originally Posted by XRunner

Are the FRA Safety Rules being used to protect the runners or the organisers?

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what kind of comment is that

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Originally Posted by daz h

what kind of comment is that

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It is designed to stimulate conversation and make people think about the reasons behind the rules and, perhaps, discuss issues that they would not normally consider.

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Originally Posted by XRunner

It is designed to stimulate conversation and make people think about the reasons behind the rules and, perhaps, discuss issues that they would not normally consider.

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well id have thought its obvious it protects both

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Originally Posted by daz h

well id have thought its obvious it protects both

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A mobile phone may protect neither.

Consider the case of an inexperienced runner who relies on a phone to summon help when difficulties occur rather than withdraw from the event because it is beyond their ability.

If the worst situation occurs and the mobile phone doesn't work, then the next-of-kin may take the organisers to court for criminal negligence because they failed to check that a mobile phone worked over the entire area of the event.

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Originally Posted by XRunner

A mobile phone may protect neither.

Consider the case of an inexperienced runner who relies on a phone to summon help when difficulties occur rather than withdraw from the event because it is beyond their ability.

If the worst situation occurs and the mobile phone doesn't work, then the next-of-kin may take the organisers to court for criminal negligence because they failed to check that a mobile phone worked over the entire area of the event.

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By vetting entries an organizer can minimize the chance that an inexperienced runner takes part. This occurs with the skyline race.

XRunner, that case was in New Zealand, the verdict was overturned some time later as far as I can remember.

I'm in Scotland, there has been a fairly recent case involving a mountain guide and client where the outcome was basically that as a voluntary participant in certain activities you accept the risk. I would be very surprised if a race organiser ended up in court unless they were very and recognisably negligient(open to debate I know!).

I suspect in England, Wales etc. things may not be so clear cut but not that far from the Scottish position.

7. If the worst happens, phone your lawyer. Don't forget to photograph the hazardous fell as evidence of negligence on the part of the organiser.

I do find this the biggest load of 'a**e' I have read on here.

It must have many an old fell runner turning in his grave at the thought this is the direction the sport may go in the future.

Thank god I am not a serious racer, but a fell runner happy with my own company on the hills, and responsible for my own actions.

This is even funnier than the Fell Ponies.

I suspect that if it had been raised as a theoretical proposed new requirement, rather than being put straight into practice on an actual race, it would have been laughed off the forum.

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Originally Posted by Mud

This is even funnier than the Fell Ponies.

I suspect that if it had been raised as a theoretical proposed new requirement, rather than being put straight into practice on an actual race, it would have been laughed off the forum.

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Oi! Wot you laughing at?:D

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Originally Posted by Mud

This is even funnier than the Fell Ponies.

I suspect that if it had been raised as a theoretical proposed new requirement, rather than being put straight into practice on an actual race, it would have been laughed off the forum.

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You mean like the way that the forum laughed off the theoretical proposal that the FRA should remain under UKA?

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Originally Posted by dominion

You mean like the way that the forum laughed off the theoretical proposal that the FRA should remain under UKA?

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Well it's an interesting comparison.

On the FRA/UKA issue there were a load of people of the sheep tendency, saying "the committee know best, they put lots of work in and we should respect their judgement".

Here it's the same with race organisers?

Doing huge amounts of much-appreciated work doesn't stop you being wrong (and certainly doesn't mean that people can't suggest you might be wrong...)

If carrying my mobile means that the chap who organises the Edale Skyline feels he has a better chance if anything goes wrong, then that's alright with me. I'm certainly not going to complain - and I know it won't affect my enjoyment of the race. What's all the fuss about?

At least most folk know how to use a mobile phone!!

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Originally Posted by Mud

This is even funnier than the Fell Ponies.

I suspect that if it had been raised as a theoretical proposed new requirement, rather than being put straight into practice on an actual race, it would have been laughed off the forum.

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The FRA had the rules changed last year to enable race
organisers to include extra reasonable safety measures and equipment
above and beyond our rule 9 mandatory kit. This decision falls well within that clause.

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Originally Posted by AndyJ

This decision falls well within that clause.

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I'm not suggesting it's not a legitimate decison, just that it's not a very good one (for many if not all of the points made above).

This is partly about practicalities (network coverage, false sense of security etc*) and partly about the culture of fell-running.

* I don't wear a helmet on my bike except when racing, if that helps place my position...

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Originally Posted by AndyJ

The FRA had the rules changed last year to enable race
organisers to include extra reasonable safety measures and equipment
above and beyond our rule 9 mandatory kit. This decision falls well within that clause.

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Indeed the FRA did. I drafted it.

As I recall mobile phones were not raised at the relevant FRA Committee but there was a debate on the definition of waterproof rather than windproof and what is "full" body cover.

I did Edale in 2007 and I have raced in even worse conditions.

However whether or not I think carrying a mobile phone is sensible, as a race organiser my start point is that the race organiser is always right. It is his race and if you don't want to play by his rules then don't play at all.

Btw there are now approaching 7000 members of the FRA. The days that Wheeze likes to wax poetical about are gone or going. Fellrunning isn't a fringe pastime for a few hard men who build dry stone walls and have sheep anymore.

Welcome to the real world of the 21st Century.

Always interesting to read your posts Graham, often they are very informative.

Shame that so often you spoil it by having a dig at someone.

Don't worry Fellrunner, he can't help it.;)

Progress is progress. Doesn't stop people pushing vigourously to preserve the essential culture of something...witness Golf Clubs. This is a very worthy discussion. Do we want to preserve the 'old-skool' hard-man image or go for the full-lycra GPS version?

I've got absolutely no issue with the concept of accepting whatever the RO wants as what you have to comply with. But RO's need to see all aspects of what they introduce. Andy is clearly scarred after last years very difficult situation. Believe me, I know EXACTLY how that feels (with an even worse outcome than he endured). So, I sympathise fully with his decision to increase safety and the new rules allow that (and there was nothing to stop it before).

But I think it's worth carefully considering everything thats been said here because it does have implications for the future. I believe its very important not to over-react to an extreme circumstance just as much as you should never ignore an obvious and sensible improvement. Simple as that.

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Originally Posted by GrahamB

However whether or not I think carrying a mobile phone is sensible, as a race organiser my start point is that the race organiser is always right. It is his race and if you don't want to play by his rules then don't play at all.

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I'd agree with that. He can be wrong, but if we don't like it don't run.

The race organiser puts the work in, its up to him what the rules are. As runners if we don't like it we race elsewhere, don't race at all, or organise a race ourselves.

I'm not in favour of carrying all the kit that things like the '3 Peaks Yacht Race' demand, its the main thing that puts me off, but the fact remains its the organisers call.

I've seen a race organiser have to deal with the guilt of a death during a race, it wasn't his fault at all, but nevertheless its something that will stay with him forever. So whatever they feel they need to ask for to avoid/reduce the risk of such a situation is their call.

Personally I'd rather not carry a mobile on a race, but its a standard piece of safety kit in the hills. As an ML if I had a client who died of a heart attack and I was in an area of signal and not carrying a mobile I'd be strung up and would potentially face court action. It's up there with any other piece of safety kit, suvival bag etc really.

Well, that was a very interesting 20 mins spent reading this thread.

I fully realise people want to protect the traditions and the aura of the fells.

But if carrying a mobile has the potential to save a life, even if 1 in 50 years, then I think it's a sensible thing to carry.

However, I took my phone up Helvellyn in my Walsh bum bag, in a plastic money bag. The phone got condensation in it and the lower half of the display broke. In the end I had to get a new phone.

So there are practical issues to be dealt with. I wouldn't like to take a state of the art phone out, not use it and find it was broke when I finished.

And if people haven't got a phone, I don't see it's fair to ask them to buy/borrow one.

So while in priniciple I have no problems with this rule, I think it may turn out to be unworkable on some levels.

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Originally Posted by GrahamB

the race organiser is always right. It is his race and if you don't want to play by his rules then don't play at all.

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Coming from a Rugby league back ground, the above is certainly true and clear to all.

Its simple to me, if you carry a phone you can race Edale. If you don't want to then go and run it at some other time.

We must have respect for the good people that organise our races.

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Originally Posted by Stagger

Its simple to me, if you carry a phone you can race Edale. If you don't want to then go and run it at some other time.

We must have respect for the good people that organise our races.

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We do, but that doesn't mean we can't disagree with them and have an open discussion.