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Look, I could be wrong about this but I think we got the message and I think we are trying to tell you we are pretty indifferent about personal locator beacons.
I could be wrong and there might be exceptions but now might be a good time to consider that you have tried and that, after all, even you can't win them all.
I'm with Fellshoeshuffler. Fell running is er.... about biting off what you can chew and then um.... chewing it :D
:rolleyes: I don't really think you got the message. The campaign and petition is about a CHANGE in the LAW. so that everyone has the choice of owning one. We are not saying that everyone should go out and buy one! Does this hurt you?
FellShoeShuffler and Stolly you do not represent every fell runner. There are a lot of people out there who are not aware that there are such things as PLBs.
Stolly having looked at your beautiful scenic pictures and route, you go into the countryside very much like Long Distance Riders (except we don't chance it in the dark) where there is a high chance of a foot down a rabbit hole or a stumble and leg injury. We all like to rely onorselves but occasionally we can't.
Sorry but ths would be an expensive implementation for an underused tool. Stretching mountain rescue resources even thinner than they are at the moment. They have enough trouble with fools in the hills with a mobile for security imagine what they will be like with a mobile and a PLB?
Be like the drinking ad where bloke thinks he is invincible and climbs scaffolding. Load of people going outside their limits due to a little button they can press. I know you say that it won't be abused but it just will. One persons emergency is another persons challenge.
Maybe it would be better to have a general campaign to educate hill and mountain users instead?
:) So you rather deny many more responsible people?...not surprising! Have a look at the link below.
http://www.newstalkzb.co.nz/newsdeta...storyID=130702
:( I can't see how MRT's or SAR's would be stretched - quite the opposite, they would know where their casualty was by the GPS beacon co-ordinates (within 125 metres) and waste less time in the search part of the rescue. How many times in the dark have rescues had to be abandoned? ....the PLB will transmit through the night. Full battery life is at least 24 hours.
Those numpties that ring 999 for assistance to get back for a party won't likely know about PLB's. There's also legislation in place now with marine and air that will slow down the misuse of PLBs in-land.
If you are in a group you don't all need to have a PLB. In Australia they do hire them out from outdoor pursuit centres and this could be the way foward for some that don't want to afford the purchase.
Maybe not, but it seems from your responses that I am not the only who doesn't get the message.Quote:
Originally Posted by jenniwren
Any real level of interest would have generated a huge number of posts confirming what a good idea we all think PLBs are but it didn't happen.
Didn't happen on the UK climbing forum either, are you ignorant to this feedback Jenni or just ignoring it? On both forums it has been discussed rationally by people who are heavily involved in outdoor activities involving elements of risk. The conclusion I have drawn from both forums is that it is not legal to use on land for good reason - too many button happy wanna be explorers with the potential to stretch our UK MR teams to beyond breaking point.Quote:
Originally Posted by FellShoeShuffler
:rolleyes: I'm visiting the forums to inform people that don't know of PLBs existence. If you (personally) are not interested at this time that doesn't matter. You cannot speak for others. I don't think you have an argument to answer.
On the UKC forum you will have seen Outdoorsman's sound arguments for PLBs. A lot of very well informed information came from him/her. There was some element of rationality on UKC but a lot of the argument was from ignorance and possible prejudice leading to rudeness!
The lack of other participants in this discussion doesn't mean that it is not being read, quiet opinions being formed and futher investigation being done by the individual.
In the US and Australia they have had land based PLBs since 2003 and it is working well!
According to the news this week MRT's are already stretched from people going out ill prepared,
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7195365.stm
If that's what the unprepared hill walker in the UK thinks MRT are there for, then I don't think PLB's will be used responsibly.Quote:
One couple wanted a helicopter because they were late for a dinner party.
Yes in theory they are a good idea, but no, I don't believe they will be used responsibly. Are the MRT's campaigning for them to be made legal? Surely they are one's who should be campaigning for their legalization as they are the ones you believe will be benefitting.
Well said Dom. Leave it to the experts to decide. MRT's have a very well informed view of what they do and do not need.
I tend to agree with others that resources are better spent teaching people about outdoor craft than buying yet another gizmo of dubious worth that will be abused by the untrained/thoughtless.
....and if you're that bothered about being able to contact mountain rescue / emergency services, buy a satellite phone. They're 'relatively' cheap these days.
Is she still here?
She's posting on the 'Wilderness Horse Riding' forum at the moment. Bless her, did she mention she works for a major PLB manufacturer? :)
I sense a new thread.............:eek: Hope the Edale organiser doesn't read this.Quote:
Originally Posted by dominion
No? Really? Surely not? No-one can be that brazen can they? I just thought she was a pushy horsie type (no offence to the fell ponys)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ady In Accy
I agree with you that there is an element of ill prepared people that decide to take a stroll and come unstuck. I live near Snowdonia and the parking space on the A5 is so inviting on a good day that it wouldn't surprise me that people take impromptu walks! These are the people who wouldn't own a PLB because they are not responsible to equip themselves! This will always happen with or without PLBs. You can still spend time teaching people how to apply "outdoor craft".
I have no connection with any manufacturer. Some government agencies cannot go openly public with their support of PLB because of procotcol. I have been contacted by a few and can assure you that they are keen to see a change in favour of the use of PLBs. Peter Bell the president of MR.org has told me that a formal sub-committee has already been established to discuss all aspects of PLBs on land within the UK.
My efforts are to bring some publicity to an otherwise buried subject so vital to the safety of those that would choose to carry a PLB were it legal in-land.
There is no need to stoop to insults and rudeness.
People who don't own a PLB because they are not responsible to equip themselves? :confused: :mad:
Insults and rudeness? She ain't seen nuttin' yet.
:D
Jenni I'm not gonna insult you and your love of horses, (by the way all you dog lovin' fellrunners think on: a horse is just a big herbivorous dog that you can ride!) however, I detest the thought of electronic gadgetry on the hills. I wish they'd never been invented. The thought of our world being cocooned in a vast web of radio signals, like the elastic bands in a golf ball, gives me the spooks. But they are there so if you want to take a TV set in your saddle bag or anything else that makes you feel safer- do it. There should be room for all sorts, except trail bike riders and four wheel off-roaders of course, on the hills. But don't ask me and other luddites to get excited about your campaign. Good luck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guick Dotto
:D Well put sir!
What's the deal about whether it is legal or illegal? If you want a personal locator beacon why don't you just have one anyway. Who's going to know until you activate it?
Horses aside I do love to get away from it all like you lot off the beaten track.
I wonder if any of you have had to call MRT because of illness or a broken bone preventing your fnding your own way off a remote track! Having watched Richard Hammond and the Helis it is apparent there is some need for MRT's for fellrunners as well, so you are just as human and mortal as anyone else.
I did not ask you to get excited about PLBs...just put it forward that the information was there and to consider signing the petition. If you can't debate or inform yourself with any intelligence and polliteness then I suggest you don't take part in it. People should have the right to choose if they want to carry a PLB or not no matter what outdoor pursuit they follow.
Yes that's what I said to you. I thought people were being a bit hard on you that's why I posted. I bet you haven't wasted your time either cos there are loads of fellrunners who love mobiles and GPS and stuff, have a look at the 101 uses for a mobile thread in general Fellrunning issues, and I'll bet they are falling over themselves to sign your petition. And by the way if you think there's been rudeness shown see what Yorkshire Thug and her ilk think about people like me!
You don't know it but you've stumbled into a significant ethical debate about safety and responsibility. I'm sure your side is going to win, by the way. And not just for outdoor pursuits either. My free copy of Teacher magazine, which the government insists I read as they send me three copies, has lovely pictures of smiling children who are made even happier at the prospect of being fingerprinted so that dinner registers are easier to take. I'm sure personal locator beacons will be injected into our earlobes and then we'll never be lost ever again. They'll always be able to find you.:(
Excellent!!! I'm not the only paranoid looney in the world!!!
We will all be implanted with hypodermic microchips soon anyway so all of this will be irrelevant. I just think that people like Jenny of the green wellies and race organisers who insist on mobile phones will help this happen sooner. Technology looking for applications usually finds lots.
Paranoid????
Looney yes:D
I think that we should be allowed to make mistakes. I think children should be given the chance to take responsibility for library cards and dinner money, and that includes being given the opportunity to lose those things. It's part of growing up. I think that fell runners should be given the chance to take responsibility for their own safety, and that includes being given the opportunity to get lost and find themselves in dangerous or even life threatening situations with only their own resources to rely on. That's part of growing up too. It's part of being human, truly human and it's why I run on the fells.
BTW the Teachers magazine pisses me off too.
To put PLBs in a proper context have a look at
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3215276.ece
I totally agree with what you say, but at the same time we are not all of the same mould and other's should have the choice of PLB's. The pro PLB people have no wish to make it compulsory to have a PLB when venturing onto moor or mountain. It would be too difficult to monitor!Quote:
Originally Posted by Grouse
Guick Dotto I looked at the 101 thread and posted. As regards to fellrunning events I referred to Amatuer Radio clubs to monitor the route (as they do in other outdoor events) thus the mobile phone would not be needed to be compulsory. I have no idea if fellrunning events are organised this way. My husband is a licensed amateur radio man and is regularly called to events during the Spring, Summer and Autumn. It's nice when there are no incidents but they can get help promptly when there are!
I hate the compensation culture but when the chips are down it's difficult not to join it. The same goes for radio waves and technology...we'd be lost without it. We are communicating through the internet when 15 years ago it wasn't possible in the UK yet you (general) accept it! I'd love to return to the days when there were no pignetting/barbed wire fences and walls and have real freedom to roam...sadly those days are gone too.
Fair enough.
I've absolutely no problem with organisers using radios and so on. I'm grateful for people who give up their time and expertise to make a race safe. It's the inevitable destruction of the wilderness and wildness in people that saddens me when compulsion comes in. Also I might want to take a beacon myself if I was racing across the Greenland icecap (I can hear Grouse going "Wimp!") but it's not THAT wild in this country is it? Be honest. And with all this safety paraphernalia the illusion of adventure becomes more and more fragile.
There's agreat line in a book (I can't for the moment remember the name of :rolleyes: ) talking of buccaneers crossing from the Carribean to the Pacific through the Panama jungle in the 1600's 'with nothing more than a cutlass and a stick of salt to lick on'. Can you imagine the vast array of technology that any self respecting (sponsorship seeking) expedition would carry nowadays?
Quick Dotto has hit the nail on the head in mentioning the spirit of adventure; well to me he has. Next thing they'll be fitting an handrail on Striding Edge or... building a..a.. train station on top of Snowden ;)
Guick Dotto It's wild when you are out of contact and in trouble. I have ridden from my home to Lake Vyrynwy over the mountains. When you get to the Vyrynwy area it is really hard to get a mobile phone service. When you're in the valley there are a lot of people about but once you take to higher ground you could be in a wilderness. I took two ladies down there (riding there and back) on their horses last year and needed to contact a farrier because of a shoe that had come off one of the horses (mine's barefoot...no problem). The mobile phone reception was no better than my first visit there in 1998! I'm definitely not suggesting I'd use a PLB for this sort of event, just illustrating the "near yet so far" of areas like this. We have Clocaenog Forest nearby and the reception in the forest is bad. These are only two places I have sited, but there are thousands more!
Just thought you may like to take a look at this.
http://www.grough.co.uk/content/view/742/28/
Stolly Equine Rambers have the spirit of adventure too. If you go onto our website you'll find the Trail Stories. Most of us would like to just go with our steeds into the sunset.....I can just see it now...the silhouette of me on my horse against the sinking evening sun riding over a grassy mountain...sigh! But unfortunately reality kicks in and we count our financial and personal commitments of leaving everything behind and the cost going away. I still value my skin on more local rides (usually 10-15 miles) which still take us into less populated areas, thus the PLB campaign.
A mobile farrier? Like an AA for horses?:confused:
Those anvils must take some hefting about.
:D More common than you think! (but the shoes are ready made and just need shaping to fit.) :cool: Much easier an unshod horse.
Love the quote from mountain rescueQuote:
Originally Posted by jenniwren
If they get behind your campaign I will suspect a lot more people will be behind it as these are the people living with the reality of the introduction of such an idea. I know if they say they are all for it I will support them. I would not carry one myself but feel that MR do a sterling job and if they feel it will benefit them then fine.Quote:
Originally Posted by david allen - Chariman of MR England and Wales
I feel without the MR teams on board you may struggle with similar resistance from the more independant mountain users such as climbers and fell runners. If they were on board I bet the responses from UKC would be mightly different.
Here is another good link to consider on Grough http://www.grough.co.uk/content/view/671/28/
Can I ask why http://www.findmespot.com/default.aspx which is meant to be coming to europe soon is not a more sensible solution?
AJF:( Spot requires a monthly subscription whereas the normal PLB does not. There are some MRT people in favour of PLB's working quietly to change the law as I think I've explained before, Peter Bell being one of them.
The fact that the units were not originally as reliable as they are now has stuck in peoples minds, even those of some MRT members. The technology has advanced and false alarms are less likey to happen.....these can be checked before any SAR team is activated.
http://www.grough.co.uk/content/view/742/28/
As regarding the link above I have said that I agree with educating people that venture up mountains and in remote lowlands. I used to walk out locally with my dog and always used to wear a bright coat. Local farmers use binoculars and would know who I was with the dog and the coat combination, and it then did more for their reasurrance with their stock, but I was seen ....the casual off the cuff walker is more difficult to educate because they do it on a whim because it's a nice day and a path looks tempting.
There has been some publicity lately on MR where they have been trying to get the message across. I hope it continues. The PLB should still be a bonus to SAR. The reasonably accurate postioning will cut down the time of SAR and must be a saving all round.
Why the frown? Genuine question and a genuine thought about mountain rescue and their support needed to get this off the ground for your campaign. You will need them to get the law changed as I suspect they will be called upon for advice on the need for such a thing in this country.
It seems to me that £300 is still expensive as an initial outlay where at the moment the find me spot with todays exchange rate would be £135 for first year and £50 for each subsequent year therefore you would get 4 years use from it at the same price and it has more features than the PLB. If the costs and the subscription was the same in the UK which as they are the operator then I am guessing so. By the end of 4 years this technology will probably be incorporated into GPS devices anyhow. if you think mobiles were just developing color screens 4 years ago you can see how fast this and the GPS market is moving.
It would also be legal in the UK without the need for OFCOM licensing (I am guessing based on reading their website and soon to be released in Europe and the coverage map suggests UK).
It would also be useful across the world as opposed to just the UK so those trips abroad would be safer.
Also, if people are just lost and tempted to press their beacon they may actually go for the friends and family option who can find their position and if experienced could advice them on where they are therefore relocating themselves and showing their way off the mountain. So useful in non-life threatening situations and therefore reducing the possibilities of numpty use.
And the checking in feature would put the minds at rest for those back at home if you decide to bunk down for the night or are late back. Thus ensuring that loved ones do not call MR when there is no need.
Has Peter Bell given you his verbal support? To quote you on UKC
"has said will meet with me next time he visits my area for other business."
Now I used to work in sales (mobile technology industry including GPS companies) and to me that is a fob off and I would not put that on my sales projections unless I was way off my target and my boss would have given me a kicking for doing so. If he is supporting you and has come and met with you I apologise for being off the mark.
My own personal opinion and I probably do not speak for everyone (but I suspect a large % of this forum) is that it is overkill for the UK.
If people do want a device there is already more suitable ones on the market (or will be soon) that have actual useful functions as well as being a life saving device.
Please understand that I am engaging in debate here and not being churlish about it. I understand why you think that PLB's are a good idea but there has to be some serious thought into the one dimensional aspect of them (a major concern of mine), the costs that would prohibit the majority of users, the lack of features compared to other products that would dis-encourage those it is meant to save to actually carry one.
I feel even if you managed to get PLB use legalised its technology and usage will become archaic in a very short period of time. It may be best to look at how and why people use the emergency services and tackle that problem first as the PLB issue will be redundant with upcoming technology.
AJF I was frowning at the SPOT. The spot is cheaper initially but with the subscription fee makes it more expensive over time. (Personally equestrans do not like to pay out additiional fees as we have enough expense with upkeep as it is)The other disadvantage is that when you send an emergency signal it goes to the host company GEOS then gets passed on to the Police etc. With the PLBs that are in use for maritime and air now, it goes straight to RAF Kinloss cutting out any error in information. The signal from these PLBs is a lot stronger than that of SPOT.
I think SPOT goes on sale next week in the UK and we will have to watch over the coming months how effective they are. The odd thing is that it's not a level playing field as they transmit a signal and don't seem to require registration. This can only point in favour of normal PLBs being legalised!
I had an informative email from Peter Bell when I started the campaign. So far we have had no further communication and to my knowledge he hasn't visited the area since. I am still hoping he will call, but won't hold my breath!
I understand your comment about other products etc.... one concern with those is the lack of registration. Previous posts have worried about false alarms for MRTs with PLBs. I wonder if the fact that units like SPOT may not have OFCOM registration will have the opposite effect for MRTs(more false alarms)....you don't know and we'll have to see what happens. It may be that OFCOM will take action and require them to be registered with them.
I'm sure that most people who know about SAR / MRTs already know how and why they are used. As to the archaic, the PLB companies don't stand still in development as it's a competitive market out there.
I took on board your point about getting the MRTs behind the campaign and spoke to one of my contacts about it. He is keen to put the correct facts across to them so I will take a back seat on that issue for the moment. He's in a better position to present them.
They do require membership registration as the next of kin or designated person is contacted in an emergency therefore details has to be taken therefore traceable. This is part of the GEOS membership. The GEOS alliance is not part of spot. Spot is a new partner to the alliance therefore separate organisations.
Geos originally set up for rich business people in case of kidnap therefore it is not in the hands of a start up business such as spot. If it was it would give me major concerns. Understand your worry of miscommunication but it is an experienced company e.g. the personal protection officer to the Queen and ex Scotland yard superintendent is one of the directors.
Is your issue regarding registration around the punishment for false alarms if not registered? I am suspecting regardless of technology that issue would be hard to police. e.g. My wife lost in the hills in the dark she would be reaching for the beacon for fear of death in the hills never to be found again. Me on the other hand would be actually quite happy to spend time in the hills in the dark. If she set off the alarm fearing attack from a rabid sheep would she be charged despite it being a waste of resources yet also believing it a genuine emergency? (granted she wouldn't be in the hills but if she was she would be the type wanting a PLB before stepping out of the car)
They are not requiring OFCOM registration because of the way they send signals and who they send the signal to. They are not using public airwaves therefore get round it. I am not a techie in this area so that is all I can tell you about that. If that is a good thing or not I do not know.
As you say it will be interesting to see how the market develops in coming months. However much it may or may not be a good thing for the outdoor scene it will happen regardless of PLB's or not.
I am unsure that there is a need to change the law yet. It may be a time to watch this space and see how some of the other technologies progress.
I will keep an eye on how your campaign progresses and if MRT get behind it because they think it will benefit them please do let me know.
p.s Jenni, been interesting looking into this!
AJF Just a footnote....I've enjoyed a sensible discussion with you! It is archaic that the playing field is not level with the marine and air fraternity.