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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
The cost isnt the issue here. A few £20 sessions may be extremely difficult to fund if you are unwaged or a low earner who runs because it's a cheap sport.
£3000 a term is a huge amount in comparison but not if you are a top businessman or football star or even a barrister or a doctor.
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
I'm not defending or attacking GPs.
Just saying if you have an injury which affects your running go to a physio or an osteopath or a chiropractor or whatever. I doubt Shane Warne goes to his GP, or Kluft or Gebreselasie. I doubt you will either in future, Moley:)
Mind you some are better than others. My favorite Physio died a while ago so injuries are more of a worry.
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
How do you manage to reply so quick Chris?
Other forums have email notification of a reply on topics I am watching
but I havent seen how to do this on here. Are you just on the 'puter the whole time? Surely not with the youngster you have there.
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bestathlete
How do you manage to reply so quick Chris?
Other forums have email notification of a reply on topics I am watching
but I havent seen how to do this on here. Are you just on the 'puter the whole time? Surely not with the youngster you have there.
He's been learning from his missus ;)
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Yorkshire Thug
In my experience Doctors are the most judgmental, opinionated and pompous examples of our species, and if they taught them a tiny bit of empathy at university we wouldn't even be discussing them on this thread.
As I asked on a previous thread, re Mountain Rescue Teams, did you have a challenging childhood YT.:confused:
What thread could we start that will bring the positive side out?:)
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Quote:
Originally Posted by
PlumBum
What thread could we start that will bring the positive side out?:)
YORKSHIRE
MOST WONDERFULL PLACE ON EARTH
OR POSSIBLY
YORKSHIREMEN
MOST WONDERFULL PEOPLE ON EARTH.
But I'm not starting either of them :p
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Quote:
Originally Posted by
molehill
YORKSHIRE
MOST WONDERFULL PLACE ON EARTH
OR POSSIBLY
YORKSHIREMEN
MOST WONDERFULL PEOPLE ON EARTH.
But I'm not starting either of them :p
Starting a discussion on either of these topics would be tricky
Whats to discuss, I thought it was a statement of fact:D
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Quote:
Originally Posted by
molehill
Yet if I went in as a fat, smoking, unfit lardarse, I could probably have consultations, pills and disabled benefits till I die.
Someone called?
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
If we make the end of Dragons Back - we'll celerate with a big fat cigar :)
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
You are on mate. Cohiba or Monte Christo?:D
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Quote:
Originally Posted by
molehill
Certainly some opinions here, just need YT to add his bit to the debate :D .
I had a back problem (NOT running induced problem, but it was affecting my running considerably). My GP told me I could still walk so wasn't that bad, there was nothing he could do for me (no examination) and would not refer me to a specialist, as there were more important cases and too long a waiting list.
So I put up with it for another 12 months, believing I would just have to wait till I was totally crocked.
In desperation 3 weeks ago I booked an appointment with the osteo (the one that also treats the NHS referrals), and 1/2 hour later my back is better than for years. :). Hardly surprising I was p****d off with the GP.
If I was in charge of the NHS :eek:, I would give all fit, healthy, sporting types preferrential treatment for everything. And the rest could bloody well wait at the back of the cue. Sod 'em. Sorted.
so everyone that doent run 40miles a week or cycle 50 miles a week wouldnt get treated molehill, shocking:mad:
my amanda
doesnt do loads of exercise had an abnormal smear test 4 months ago, anyway she was diagnosed with that word, yes cancer
its been hell but anyway , excellent treatment from the NHS and she recieved a clear result yesterday.
wot a relief, nice one NHS
i cant fault them
molehill like me your bad back etc was caused by you abusing it same as me lifting heavy objects, simple as that
i would never call the NHS
when you need them there brilliant
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Daz, so good to hear that the all clear has been sounded. You are right, for some things the NHS is excellent and cannot be replaced. They all begin with C.
Cancer
Children
Childbirth
Cardiac
Casualty
i.e. the Big Life and Death stuff. Anything else and I'm afraid its everyman for himself. And to be honest, its all very well bleating on 'I pay my taxes so I have a right...' etc etc, but the cost of just doing the above is as much as the economy can stand. If we all took large chunks of responsibilty to balance the big heavy rights we demand, things would be better all round.
But...sigh...there'll always be those sponging b*stards that take advantage.
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Complex debate with few black and white answers, but Wheeze, you sum it up nicely. I work in a busy city centre Intensive Care Unit and could tell tales to alternately make your hair curl and blood boil. I have lots of opinions but not many simple, universal answers. Living responsibly has to be the best course of action, but getting people to do that isn't easy.
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Quote:
Originally Posted by
paulo
er.... hasn't everybody been trained with our money to one extent or another? Should lawyers, CEOs of large companies, plumbers, physicists all have to work for the state for 25 years??
Less than 30% of NHS consultants do ANY private work. The government screwed up the new consultant contract because they thought it would force people to do more NHS work - in fact it transpired that the average consultant did in excess of 50 hours per week for the NHS and all the sums were wrong causing a huge extra pay bill for the treasury - d'oh.
I would count non-serious repetitive use training injuries as somewhere in the sports equipment / nutrition / luxury item field that we might reasonably be expected to pay for or wait for - and I HATE private medicine
cheers P
paulo, i am a afraid you are talking rather stupid and you should know better.
first, less than 30% of consultants are doing ANY private work assumes that consultants have morals , well WHO is doing all this fecking BUPA work then? the pope?
secondly, if you are correct then these 30% should be sacked and thrown in jail and all their possessions should be confiscated.
thirdly, plumbers are usually (until thatcher the milk snatcher ended all apprenticeships) paid for by the employer or by the employee himself in the way of vocational courses.
lastly, i am quite disturbed by your quote of actually hating private medicine, but you seem to give a reassuring thumbs up to the new labour fascist by claiming that non serious repetitive injuries should be privatized.
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Is this Comrade gaz returned to the fold??:D
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
How about this then?
I entered the Ultra Tour of Mont Blanc, and went to my GP to ask him to sign the form saying "having examined me there were no contra indications..."
He took my blood pressure,asked a few questions then demanded £45, saying that these examinations were not covered by NHS,and he would soon be meeting colleaugues at his practice to draw up a protocol for Sports Medicals,and would be recommending £90.
My protestations that a) Everyone I have asked was charged nothing or £10
and b) that the blood pressure check etc are only what he should be doing regularly as part of his NHS contract
fell on deaf ears. Moreover writing to the PCT only achieved a referral back to the GP for comment,and writing to my MP got no response at all!!
Does the GP have no conscience now about private charges??
Does the NHS now have no responsibility for preventive health care and exe
rcise?
Does this mean that I can never afford to enter an event in France again??
Does this mean that all the overseas championship events will become unaffordable?
How long before UK events require a medical disclaimer to satisfy their insurance??
Has the FRA committee come across this one before??
Can the committee take this up with the BMA or whichever body (in the Labyrinthine Health Services) is responsible for this disgraceful situation?
Do a lifetime of paying Nat Ins and Tax buy no services whatever??
Any advice on where to go next.
Fuming,as you can see...........
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
There are quite a few things that GPs do that are not covered by the contract they have with the NHS, always been the case.
The BMA suggest typical fees, what your doc is charging seems in line with fees suggested here:
http://www.bma.org.uk/ap.nsf/Content/noagreement~onlybygp
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pete simpson
How about this then?
I entered the Ultra Tour of Mont Blanc, and went to my GP to ask him to sign the form saying "having examined me there were no contra indications..."
He took my blood pressure,asked a few questions then demanded £45, saying that these examinations were not covered by NHS,and he would soon be meeting colleaugues at his practice to draw up a protocol for Sports Medicals,and would be recommending £90.
My protestations that a) Everyone I have asked was charged nothing or £10
and b) that the blood pressure check etc are only what he should be doing regularly as part of his NHS contract
fell on deaf ears. Moreover writing to the PCT only achieved a referral back to the GP for comment,and writing to my MP got no response at all!!
Does the GP have no conscience now about private charges??
Does the NHS now have no responsibility for preventive health care and exe
rcise?
Does this mean that I can never afford to enter an event in France again??
Does this mean that all the overseas championship events will become unaffordable?
How long before UK events require a medical disclaimer to satisfy their insurance??
Has the FRA committee come across this one before??
Can the committee take this up with the BMA or whichever body (in the Labyrinthine Health Services) is responsible for this disgraceful situation?
Do a lifetime of paying Nat Ins and Tax buy no services whatever??
Any advice on where to go next.
Fuming,as you can see...........
Peter who do you think should pay for YOUR medical?
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
I think I should be given £150.00 for NOT smoking.
Smokers offered money to give up
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC
Smokers in the poorest areas of Dundee are being offered £150 worth of groceries by the health service if they are able to give up cigarettes.
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
re: doctors charging for a certificate for running in Europe.
My doctor didn't even examine me! I asked if he was going to check my heart or something and he said that I looked 'ok'! In and out in 2 minutes. Charged me £12.
I thought that my medical was already 'paid for' when the doctor picked up his pay packet!
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Post #19 of the thread below is pretty useful if you want to save some money. I'm getting it signed by any old pal & I'll stamp it at work;
http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/showt...hamonix&page=2
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Quote:
Originally Posted by
spring heeled jack
remember these doctors and specialist have been trained with OUR money, graduated into a fabulously paid job at OUR expense, and now these specialist don't want to treat us because they can earn more money treating people who have gone private so they can jump their turn in the waiting list.
ALL doctors and specialist must work exclusively in the NHS for at least 25 years until their debts are paid back to the people who have invested so much of their hard earned taxes, and then and only then should these self interested professionals be allowed to do a very limited private work.
yours
spring heeled jack
I'm sorry but I have to pull you up on this one because you're talking ill-informed nonsense:
1) 5 years at medical school - tuition fees of £3,000 per annum in addition to general University costs. Most medical students come out of University with about £30,000 debts.
2) Starting salary for a Pre-Registration House Officer based on a 40 hour working week is £20,000 - any extra pay is accounted for in the extra unsociable hours they have to work, up to 60 hours per week. Hardly fantastic wages bearing in mind the £30,000 debt you've just built up
3) After University, it's still another 5 years of continuous assessment until they are at the stage to become a practicing GP or a Consultant, working silly hours (like 9pm - 10:30am, 9 days on the trot) for not fantastic wages.
Doctors are obviously intelligent and chose to do the job to help people; they could have probably made much more money if they had gone into a different profession such as Law.
I don't blame them for going private to be honest when they have to put up with the crap that's been written on here.
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Pete, I share your frustration but the point has already been made about some things not being covered by the GP contract with the NHS. Most people do not realise that when the NHS was set up, hospital doctors became NHS employees but GPs did not. They are independant contractors with the NHS so the problem lies with the nature of the contract between the NHS and GPs. And, as we all know, until very recently, the average medics view of a sporting injury was that it was a self inflicted injury and it would receive very little sympathy compared to someone who presented with diabetes because they ate too much crap food or lung disease coz they smoked like a bleedin' chimbly. THing is, GP's get paid for sorting out those things, but the sports med side gets such a raw deal. There is hope on the horizon with the Faculty for Sports and Exercise Medicine now being official and a few (VERY few) NHS funded training posts in Sprts Medicine now appearing.
I think you should write to the BMA and your MP, if only to get the issue raised a little.
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
doesnt your uka card count as a fitness for competition licence?
I know most GP's (who are a sort of private sub contractors to the NHS if i remember rightly) charge for health certs for rig workers and people needing occupational health clearence, so it doesnt seem to harsh for them to charge for non NHS work like a fitness cert to run round three countries and a bloody big mountain.
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
If you need health certification for work then I'd guess that your employer would probably pick up the tab. I've no objection to paying for a medical certificate for sport, but the £90 figure suggested above seems excessive.
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Quite correct - your EA card will do just that.
In the past I've used my EA (or NoEAA!!) card in lieu of a doctor's certificate in championship races both France and Switzerland with no problems - if you do race regularly abroad, it makes affiliation worth it.
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Quote:
Originally Posted by
christopher leigh
Peter who do you think should pay for YOUR medical?
I think it has ALREADY been paid for, both by myself as a tax and NI payer for 40 years and by the PCT contract:Apparently as an over 45 years old, I should get "regular" checkups. As I have NEVER had one,and as the only examination the GP did was a Blood Pressure check, then surely that is part of a "regular" check up. the ONLY additional task for the GP was a signature on a form. Surely £10 should cover that.
I think the GP is guilty of 1) charging twice for the same service 2) charging what he feels like without reference to any overseeing body.
More than that I think the NHS should spend a few of its resources on PREVENTIVE care instead of all of it on people who have to wait till they are so ill they are almost beyond help, before they can get a look in.
Thanks to all those who have responded,yes I will forge future certificates,and yes I will take this up withe the BMA for the reasons stated above!
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pete simpson
I think it has ALREADY been paid for, both by myself as a tax and NI payer for 40 years and by the PCT contract:Apparently as an over 45 years old, I should get "regular" checkups. As I have NEVER had one,and as the only examination the GP did was a Blood Pressure check, then surely that is part of a "regular" check up. the ONLY additional task for the GP was a signature on a form. Surely £10 should cover that.
I think the GP is guilty of 1) charging twice for the same service 2) charging what he feels like without reference to any overseeing body.
More than that I think the NHS should spend a few of its resources on PREVENTIVE care instead of all of it on people who have to wait till they are so ill they are almost beyond help, before they can get a look in.
Thanks to all those who have responded,yes I will forge future certificates,and yes I will take this up withe the BMA for the reasons stated above!
Peter our political system is based on 'need' and self sacrifice, not on self interest. The money you've paid in taxes over the years have been spent on others. That is the nature of our NHS and political system.
According to this country's moral code people have to be supported by the state, therefore someone has to be sacrificed. That somebody is you.
If you're against the NHS in principle, and support a private system then I sympathise with you. If on the other hand you support the NHS, then aren't you getting what you asked for? Or did you imagine that your turn to be sacrificed would never come?
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Ooooh... I love it when you talk politics Chris.
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Margarine
Ooooh... I love it when you talk politics Chris.
The thing is Margarine, people complain about the consequences of our political system, but don't oppose the cause of such a system.
The socialist policy of redistributing wealth requires the government to sacrifice some individuals or groups to pay for such redistribution.
Whilst on the receiving end people are quite happy getting money they haven't earned, but as soon as it's their money that's being confiscated, it's all tears.
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
What is the alternative to a socialist system or a mixed economy though - naked capitalism and free markets amount to misery for millions, what ever you say there are people at the bottom of the pile who cannot drag themselves out of the shit and whose only function is as consumers to line the pockets of the rich. I believe they should be aided by the state and am happy to pay taxes to see this done;of course I know no welfare system would ever be perfect and I would like to see for example a public transport that is not run for the profit of shareholders or anybody else, but that is subsideised by taxes. I think we need this more than ever and I don't think capitalism is going to save us from the abyss we are staring into, in fact I think it is largely the cause of it. I think our political system is the result of capitalism and it is there to serve Mammon. Think what this contry would be like if it wasn't for the reforms of the 19th century etc. - these weren't given but had to be fought for. Do you think people were wrong to fight for reforms which limited the degree to which capitalism exploited people,
and to fight for the National Health Service and the welfare state?
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
(Just thought I'd stick me oar in before Margarine started rabbiting on).
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Blimey :eek: - this is getting interesting!
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
A lot depends on your doctor and the local demographic of his/her surgery and how they feel they can best spend their budget. Basically the NHS is there to get people in a fit enough state to go to work so anything over and above that and you have to be lucky.
I grew up in the south Lakes and the local surgery was inhabited by, shall we say, senior citizens. Hence whenever I went in with a climbing injury it was "Oh! This is interesting!" Hence no complaints whatsoever on my part.
Some time ago I posted in the injuries section about a knee problem. I went to see the doctor (we have one of those practices where there are about a dozen doctors and you can either wait to see "your" doctor or see whoever is available first) he asked reasonable questions - i.e. on-road or off-road running etc. Put me on a stronger anti-inflammatory but with the usual platitudes of "take it easy" and "see how it goes".
Well after a couple of weeks the swelling had gone down but it still wasn't "going" so I went to see the physio. This guy had treated my ITBS a few years ago. Immediate diagnosis - meniscal tear (torn cartilege) and a request for my GP's phone number to get a cortisone injection on the NHS. By the time he rings the surgery, the doctor who had seen me first has gone on holiday so I get another of the dozen or so. This time it happens to be the senior partner in the practice who is also my neighbour.
He knows I run a lot and I got the "take it easy for three or four days" routine but also that if it wasn't working out to come back and he'd arrange an MRI scan.
The physio cost £35 but I can afford it, and having a specialist who is more attuned to your desires to get back running or whatever and who can guide the GP side of things means you get the best of both worlds.
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
I have managed to wangle a physio (achilles injury, 7 weeks) for the first time ever on the NHS, second appointment on Monday. A couple (friends) who moved here 6 months ago have both immediately received physio treatment for running/sports injuries - I have had nothing previously in over 20 years.
So this time I pushed the GP and had an appointment. I can't say the physio is as 'sports orientated' as my previous private consultations, but I do feel I deserve a bit of treatment for free.
When I speak to smokers about their rights to treatment on the NHS - considering their abuse of their bodies - I have had the reply "The amount we pay in tax on cigarettes, entitles us to our treament". So the amount I spend on keeping fit/healthy entitles me to a bit of free treatment, I reckon :). without feeling guilty.
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Grouse
What is the alternative to a socialist system or a mixed economy though - naked capitalism and free markets amount to misery for millions, what ever you say there are people at the bottom of the pile who cannot drag themselves out of the shit and whose only function is as consumers to line the pockets of the rich. I believe they should be aided by the state and am happy to pay taxes to see this done;of course I know no welfare system would ever be perfect and I would like to see for example a public transport that is not run for the profit of shareholders or anybody else, but that is subsideised by taxes. I think we need this more than ever and I don't think capitalism is going to save us from the abyss we are staring into, in fact I think it is largely the cause of it. I think our political system is the result of capitalism and it is there to serve Mammon. Think what this contry would be like if it wasn't for the reforms of the 19th century etc. - these weren't given but had to be fought for. Do you think people were wrong to fight for reforms which limited the degree to which capitalism exploited people,
and to fight for the National Health Service and the welfare state?
So because they can't drag themselves out of the s*** the rest of us should suffer?
All the misrepresentations of capitalism have come from Leftist socialists. Anyone who wants to know the truth of the socialist vs capitalism argument only have to look to history.
After the Napoleonic wars around 1815 to the first world war 100 years later, capitalism led to the longest period without a major world war. It wasn't a pure capitalism but they didn't have the controls we have now.
Today most countries are either completely socialist or are dominated by socialism and look at the state of the world.
Now you say the ones at the bottom of the pile are only there to 'line the pockets of the rich,' but how is that possible when those at the bottom don't work.
What I think was wrong was for our people in 1945 to vote in a system of government that we'd just spent 6 years fighting against(fascism). The only difference between Hitler and Brown is Hitler believed in robbing and murdering his own people, Brown just robs his.
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
I'm a touch confused Christopher, but I'm sure someone of your omniscience will be able to help me out. I thought the issue here was the narrower point of some GPs dealing with sports injuries poorly, and also whether it should be their role to treat them at all. The problem of the world being a near socialist superstate seems a bit peripheral to this. Tell me if I'm wrong, but otherwise let's not be distracted from our fell running harmony by politics. Phone up FiveLive if you need to vent your anger.
By the way, the First Opium War was undoubtedly capitalist in its very objectives, but it contributed to the Taiping Rebellion (1850s I think) and more casualties than any war except WW2. You may need to find a new anecdote.
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO... don't get him started on fell running again - keep him on the politics!
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Timmy C
I'm a touch confused Christopher, but I'm sure someone of your omniscience will be able to help me out. I thought the issue here was the narrower point of some GPs dealing with sports injuries poorly, and also whether it should be their role to treat them at all. The problem of the world being a near socialist superstate seems a bit peripheral to this. Tell me if I'm wrong, but otherwise let's not be distracted from our fell running harmony by politics. Phone up FiveLive if you need to vent your anger.
By the way, the First Opium War was undoubtedly capitalist in its very objectives, but it contributed to the Taiping Rebellion (1850s I think) and more casualties than any war except WW2. You may need to find a new anecdote.
Timmy C I don't think you're confused at all. What you want is to skirt around the fundamental issue. Peter wanted to know why he had to pay for his medical, and I've told him in fundamental terms.
What you want is a discussion based on non essentials, which is superficial and peripheral,because then we don't have to get down to the root causes of this country's problems, including the NHS.
Now the conflict you mentioned was a civil war, not a world war. China at that time was a theocracy and was committed to land 'socialization,' and the suppression of private trade. In fact some of the very things a capitalist system is against.
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Re: GP's, NHS & sportsmen - a
Hang on a minute... didn't Britain go to war with China in order to protect the trade in opium?