England Mountain Running Teams

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Originally Posted by keswickoldman

she is not 'my' Pipps' !!. She does run with wings on her feet, has won road races and is the Cumbrian X-country champion. Speed is her middle name.

OK end of debate from me.

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I wasn't suggesting she was your Pipps in that manner.....merely that clearly you support her.

All your statements of her achievement while good on the CV have to be qualified. For example, I once claimed a county schools track championship with only person to beat in the race.......not my fault, I could only race whoever turned up on the day......doesn't make me worthy of an international vest.


You must understand that I am not saying this scenario applies to Pippa but more demonstrating that statements of achievement need to be qualified. Furthermore, both Mary Wilkinson and Olivia Walwyn (who were selected) competed well in the trial race, have a history of running internationally in championship mountain races and in the case of Olivia has twice been in the top 20 of the English national xc champs, and once the top 10.

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Originally Posted by FellMonster

My 2 cents:

1) I think it would be wrong to make a selection based 100% on the trial race. Saying that, the winner should be guaranteed (or equivalent as publicised)...that's why i was outranged with the Long Distance cockup earlier in the year.

2) Stagger's suggestion about selecting the top 3 in the championships serves only to highlight his complete ignorance to any knowledge of running. I'm sorry if that seems harsh Trevor, but praise be that you have no part to play on any selection committee if you would seriously entertain that notion. Hopefully, you were just 'chucking it out there'. Which championship would you use: British? English? Let's face it, the British championship has been a softer touch (by comparison) than the English for a few years now as many do not travel.

3) Once again, I think the discussion on this thread has served only to highlight the ludicrous nature of the fellrunning championship system. This is not forumula 1 or a football tournament. In my opinion, it makes complete sense to have a championship as a 1 off race rather than a 4 or 6 race series, but then what do I know?

Fire away boys and girls....

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I'll have a shot first then :D

Agree on your point 1. I suggested a a tightening of the discretionary selection with no more than 25% of squad by selector's discretion - which could have a caveate of "or at least one place" as if the 25% rule applied, they would have no discretion with a 3 person team.


On your point 2 - whilst I agree, I think that it's a little unfair to Trevor - he does know his fellrunning but perhaps is less experienced (other than armchair) when it comes to the T&F and Road gazelles and the nuances of selection policy.


On point 3 - I do not agree. I do not think it is ludicrous to have a British and/or English Fell running Champs in the current format.
I think it does throw up the best all round fell runner in Britain / England - of course I would qualify that by "out of them that contends".
By providing a mixture of distances and terrain I think it's a fair test.

But I concede that perhaps it should stay National - ie English, Welsh etc

It can be then argued that there should also be a one-off race for the British Champs. Maybe it should sit alongside the Junior Home Internationals.
For example - at Sedbergh this year, you could have the top 6 from the respective home nations, competing on an AM course in the Howgills over approx 10 mile for the title of British Champs and British Team Champs.
Make it Male and Female.

Just been looking at the World Half Marathon squad - Rebecca Robinson will do well to compete in that and then go on to Keswick.

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Originally Posted by FellMonster

My 2 cents:

2) Stagger's suggestion about selecting the top 3 in the championships serves only to highlight his complete ignorance to any knowledge of running. I'm sorry if that seems harsh Trevor, but praise be that you have no part to play on any selection committee if you would seriously entertain that notion. Hopefully, you were just 'chucking it out there'. Which championship would you use: British? English? Let's face it, the British championship has been a softer touch (by comparison) than the English for a few years now as many do not travel.

3) Once again, I think the discussion on this thread has served only to highlight the ludicrous nature of the fellrunning championship system. This is not forumula 1 or a football tournament. In my opinion, it makes complete sense to have a championship as a 1 off race rather than a 4 or 6 race series, but then what do I know?

Fire away boys and girls....

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Thanks for the comments fellmonster, it was chucked in as a "what if"

If we are going to be serious about these events we should prepare our
athletes for these events.

We would run similar distance races over the same terrain. The event is September so why not have trial races in June, July and August. The selectors then have something to work off. Any athlete would have to compete in 2 of the three trials with no excuses. (you either want to run or you don't, simply)

A fellrunner will always struggle because the season is 8 months for the Champs ranging from less than 3 mile to over 24 mile on some unmarked course.

We are on the fringe of this kind of event but some percieve we are good at it. We do have some remarkable athletes who can cross running disciplines but it you what to perform at a specific you have to train for the specific.

Cheers WP;)

The Champs are OK to find our best all-round fellrunner who is willing to put the miles in both in training and traveling to events.

I have had some great experiences away this year, meeting great folk who all appeared to be enjoying it.

The only think I would change is NOT to have the British counter for England in the English Champs.

I may not have a running back ground but my life experiences have given me more than a fair share of common sense. (some people never have that)

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Originally Posted by IainR

I'm not sure it should, the 2/3rds of championship races this year were good traditional fell races, Sleive Bernagh (sp), Stuc A Chroin, Garn. Tebay was fairly runnable, but quite different from a mountain running course.

The Welsh team is composed of runners who have not ran on the fells at all this year and didn't do the trial either. Then there's fell runners who have missed out who have ran on the fells all year yet didn't do the trial. Tough call for the selectors so the most transparent way of doing it is placing all or most of emphasis on the trial.

The process should be as transparent as possible.

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What is the welsh team?

Shouldn't this thread be in the non fell running, other races section? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by freakazoid

What is the welsh team?

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It's on the commonwealths site. List of runners. Also sorry I didn't mean it's composed entirely of non-fell runners - late night mistake!

I've got no problem with that, last year at the trial runners turned up and had awesome runs up Snowdon, showed their class, this year fewer welsh runners did the trial but maybe because it was non-wales based.

Which ever sport they are from if they turn up and run well at the trial that's life. I'm running the 100k so didn't bother with the trial this year but I do feel sorry for runners who missed out who either ran the trial or not and were not selected for runners who had not ran the trial either and have little or no fell/mountain running experience.

That's why I think it's fairer just to weigh it heavily on the trial. Transparency is the key for me. We feel we were harshly treated at a trial this year and the reason that spiralled was the lack of communication and transparency.

Just to highlight the problems I was only told of my qualifying time required for the 100k 12 hrs before the start of the 100k trial. I'd done all (my one training run..) at 8:30 hr pace and was then told I had to run sub 8..that's 30 seconds a mile. I don't know if others were similarly affected but in the end I was the only member of the team to run sub 8 but the paces were calculated on a piece of paper 12 hrs before the start and thankfully I held the pace.

Athletes should know of the qualifying criteria way in advance.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

I'll have a shot first then :D

Agree on your point 1. I suggested a a tightening of the discretionary selection with no more than 25% of squad by selector's discretion - which could have a caveate of "or at least one place" as if the 25% rule applied, they would have no discretion with a 3 person team.


On your point 2 - whilst I agree, I think that it's a little unfair to Trevor - he does know his fellrunning but perhaps is less experienced (other than armchair) when it comes to the T&F and Road gazelles and the nuances of selection policy.


On point 3 - I do not agree. I do not think it is ludicrous to have a British and/or English Fell running Champs in the current format.
I think it does throw up the best all round fell runner in Britain / England - of course I would qualify that by "out of them that contends".
By providing a mixture of distances and terrain I think it's a fair test.

But I concede that perhaps it should stay National - ie English, Welsh etc

It can be then argued that there should also be a one-off race for the British Champs. Maybe it should sit alongside the Junior Home Internationals.
For example - at Sedbergh this year, you could have the top 6 from the respective home nations, competing on an AM course in the Howgills over approx 10 mile for the title of British Champs and British Team Champs.
Make it Male and Female.

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We'll have to agree to disagree on point 3 WP as I've previously exhaustively stated that the current format should continue in the guise of the traditional "FELLRUNNER OF THE YEAR" which is essentially what the championships find- testing ability over a long period and a wide variety of different distances and courses. It's not exactly championship material as we know it however, especially when if / when it flies under the UKA flag. Anyways, I stand firm in the belief that my suggestion is the most suitable.

As regards my point 2.....it was not a reflection of Trevor, but more of the comments that he had made.....they were ludicrous and I was not sure if he was being deadly serious or putting a thought out there. While my comments were blunt i don't consider them to have been inappropriately cruel.

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Originally Posted by Stagger

Thanks for the comments fellmonster, it was chucked in as a "what if"

If we are going to be serious about these events we should prepare our
athletes for these events.

We would run similar distance races over the same terrain. The event is September so why not have trial races in June, July and August. The selectors then have something to work off. Any athlete would have to compete in 2 of the three trials with no excuses. (you either want to run or you don't, simply)

A fellrunner will always struggle because the season is 8 months for the Champs ranging from less than 3 mile to over 24 mile on some unmarked course.

We are on the fringe of this kind of event but some percieve we are good at it. We do have some remarkable athletes who can cross running disciplines but it you what to perform at a specific you have to train for the specific.

Cheers WP;)

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This sounds much more reasonable as a suggestion Trevor though I'm not sure how a series of 3 trial races on similar terrain would be more useful than the current one off format. Championship races are by nature a one off event (except the FRA champs- see my point?) ie- best man / woman on the day......shouldn't that apply to the context of a trial race with a small margin for common sense.
I would preposterous to use the FRA champ races as a basis for selection for these events.

This sounds much more reasonable as a suggestion Trevor though I'm not sure how a series of 3 trial races on similar terrain would be more useful than the current one off format. Championship races are by nature a one off event (except the FRA champs- see my point?) ie- best man / woman on the day......shouldn't that apply to the context of a trial race with a small margin for common sense.
I would preposterous to use the FRA champ races as a basis for selection for these events.[/quote]

The reason for the similar terrain Rick is that the right person gets picked to suit the actual event. Jebby up, Holmsey down, Bailey quick etc. If its just a sloping path the 10k or 10mile runners may perform well.

A one off does not give even a small margin, by having everyone compete in at least 2 you get a truer picture of who is in or out of form.

Take our friend Morgan D at Tebay, cramped and had a shocker but has run very well all season.

I take your point about the Champs though as its valid.

I can't see why we cannot have a review - I have sympathy with FellMonsters view and I look at the structure on Cross Country and think it works well.
Taking it from an English perspective.

Firstly, I like to start with specific County Champs - on the same basis as cross country from U12 to Seniors and held as an independent meeting.
They can then lead on to selection for the County to go to an all age group Inter Counties.
I would make the Inter Counties a closed event, where only athletes selected by their counties can attend.

Then, mimic the National XC, by having an English National Fell Running Champs - again all age group, with a set of criteria for seniors - I would suggest that it should be an AM.

You could have the English Fell Champs (renamed) similar to what we have now - which replicates the Cross Challenge series and rewards the most consistent high performer through the season.
(The final race could double up with the Inter Counties as it does in Cross Country I would then put on a senior AM race attached to the Junior Home Internationals.
To qualify you would have to have a finishing position in the English National Fell Champs. This would give us the British Champions.

The cross country structure works superbly and I don't see any reason why it couldn't be adopted with a few tweaks for the fells.

In terms of specific selection races for International events, it could work as it does now. The selectors nominate a suitable race, but I think there should be more emphasis on trial performance.

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Originally Posted by Stagger

The reason for the similar terrain Rick is that the right person gets picked to suit the actual event. Jebby up, Holmsey down, Bailey quick etc. If its just a sloping path the 10k or 10mile runners may perform well.

A one off does not give even a small margin, by having everyone compete in at least 2 you get a truer picture of who is in or out of form.

Take our friend Morgan D at Tebay, cramped and had a shocker but has run very well all season.

I take your point about the Champs though as its valid.

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As regards the Morgan D affair at tebay, thats exactly where common sense can be applied, so I don't think that one race result is a convincing argument against what I've said thus far. So, I still think a 3 race trial system would be chaos and ultimately of no benefit.

As regards your sloping path comment- thats exactly what a lot of these European races are.....now of course, i don't want to be seen to be misleading......they are steep in places but much of the terrain is on grippy tarmac, forest or good firm stone paths.....therefore creating little problem for a quality 10k or 10 mile road runner who can obviously climb reasonably well.

There's too much awe for the likes of Jonathan Wyatt. Yes, he's a class act (albeit an ageing class act) but the reason he has won reasonably comfortably for many years is because a) he was equally quicker on the flat (13:27 for 5km, 27:56 for 10km, 1:02 for 1/2 marathon) and because b) for 6/9 months of the year he lives and trains at altitude in the alps.....a winning formula.

What you have seen over the past few years is that as Wyatt has started to get a little older, and the Africans have slowly started to come in, he's found it tougher and tougher to win but has still managed to scrape together the results......why? because the Africans are as fast as him on the flat, if not moreso, and likely live and train at altitude in their countries. Truth of the matter is that Bekele would murder him tomorrow over a world champs course.....like taking candy from a baby. Why? because he's faster on the flat and an athlete of his calibre will live and train on hills around his native country. Sad, but true.

Now, the reason Brits have been on the fringe for so long is mainly because they are not quick enough on the flat. Added to that, the likes of Jebby and Hope spend much of their season racing on the fells (a long tough season racing over a huge variety of terrain). They also have full time jobs and don't live/train at all altitude. Incredible jacks of all trades but inevitably doomed to trail distantly behind the likes of Wyatt for all the reasons above. Then we have the likes of Steve Vernon and Andi Jones. If they dedicated their whole year to a desire to compete against the likes of Wyatt, they would undoubtedly be in the hunt for a medal. Would they win? Probably not because they probably would still be not as quick over 10km as the leading Africans. Vernon could perhaps go particularly close in this regard (compare with the likes of Martin Cox and Billy Burns who've adopted the whole European existence). But I imagine Steve Vernon (like Andi) has a job to help make ends meet, and the prospect of living a meagre existence in the Alps dedicating oneself for a year to achieve a goal which will ultimately have no financial award (this isnt a big city marathon folks) doesn't make any financial sense.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

I can't see why we cannot have a review - I have sympathy with FellMonsters view and I look at the structure on Cross Country and think it works well.
Taking it from an English perspective.

Firstly, I like to start with specific County Champs - on the same basis as cross country from U12 to Seniors and held as an independent meeting.
They can then lead on to selection for the County to go to an all age group Inter Counties.
I would make the Inter Counties a closed event, where only athletes selected by their counties can attend.

Then, mimic the National XC, by having an English National Fell Running Champs - again all age group, with a set of criteria for seniors - I would suggest that it should be an AM.

You could have the English Fell Champs (renamed) similar to what we have now - which replicates the Cross Challenge series and rewards the most consistent high performer through the season.
(The final race could double up with the Inter Counties as it does in Cross Country I would then put on a senior AM race attached to the Junior Home Internationals.
To qualify you would have to have a finishing position in the English National Fell Champs. This would give us the British Champions.

The cross country structure works superbly and I don't see any reason why it couldn't be adopted with a few tweaks for the fells.

In terms of specific selection races for International events, it could work as it does now. The selectors nominate a suitable race, but I think there should be more emphasis on trial performance.

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Sounds like a plan WP

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

Just been looking at the World Half Marathon squad - Rebecca Robinson will do well to compete in that and then go on to Keswick.

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The Commonwealths are Sept 19th ish and the World Half is 11th October. I dont think she will have much of a problem getting to both.

I must be losing it - I got my dates mixed up:o

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Originally Posted by freakazoid

What is the welsh team?

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Up only:
Gents - Matt Collins/Andrew Davies/Matt Gilbert/Dewi Griffiths/Pete Ryder
Ladies - Anna Bartlett/Jackie Lee/ Angela Jones/Gina Paletta/Sarah Ridgway/Andrea Rowlands

Up and Down
Gents - Ricky Challinor/Tim Davies/Richie Roberts/Rob Samuel/Martin Shaw/Jorge Thomas
Ladies - Carys Davies/Jackie Lee/Jenny Heming/Sarah Ridgway/Gina Paletta/ Andrea Rowlands

Plus Messrs Pares and Ridgway are doing these funny long long races!:confused:

http://cumbriacommonwealthchampionsh...hletes_002.xls

Martin Shaw's out with a knee injury, Math is running instead.

You close to a return? started running yet?

Looks a strong welsh team.

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Originally Posted by Welsh Harrier

Ladies - Anna Bartlett/Jackie Lee/ Angela Jones/Gina Paletta/Sarah Ridgway/Andrea Rowlands

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You'll notice that it says on the Commonwealth Games website that "Since Wales cannot compete at the Olympic Games as a separate nation, the Commonwealth Games provides the Principality with its only opportunity to compete in a major international multi-sport event." Considering this, it does seem a shame that Wales has to resort to using non-Welsh ladies in its team!

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Originally Posted by Yorkshire Thug

You'll notice that it says on the Commonwealth Games website that "Since Wales cannot compete at the Olympic Games as a separate nation, the Commonwealth Games provides the Principality with its only opportunity to compete in a major international multi-sport event." Considering this, it does seem a shame that Wales has to resort to using non-Welsh ladies in its team!

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As Cecil Rhodes (almost) said: "To be born in Yorkshire is to draw first prize in the lottery of life" and so I think a little indulgence can be allowed. Although I am a little suspicious of the provenance of someone who needs to call themselves after God's own county. "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" (Shakespeare-another fine Yorkshireman).

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Originally Posted by Yorkshire Thug

You'll notice that it says on the Commonwealth Games website that "Since Wales cannot compete at the Olympic Games as a separate nation, the Commonwealth Games provides the Principality with its only opportunity to compete in a major international multi-sport event." Considering this, it does seem a shame that Wales has to resort to using non-Welsh ladies in its team!

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As in any sport there is a difference between being a certain nationality and having "a certain nationality elgibility".

A Welsh scholar told me his definition of being "Welsh" is someone who can speak the language and I agree with him on that one.

On the question of nationality the English cricket team's would be an interesting one to look a little closer at?

Finally with regards to the Welsh ladies team, one only has to have a look at most Welsh fell races to see how few female senior runners there are knocking about.....Welsh or not?!

While I agree that it's perfectly possible to justify absolutely anything (teeth the colour of daffodils, knows all the words to "The Green Green Grass of Home", eats leeks every Sunday etc etc) I believe that such chicanery usually aims to improve collective team performance.

But, if that is not the intention, then why not include a full set of Welsh ladies in the team?

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Originally Posted by Yorkshire Thug

But, if that is not the intention, then why not include a full set of Welsh ladies in the team?

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For the same reason the Welsh football don't select a full set of home born players, like the Welsh rugby team, the NZ rugby, the Austrlian rugby team, the English Cricket team, the Scottish Rugby team, the Scottish football team, the croatian football team, the Polish football team and the German football team. Even the English football team has played players and had managers who were non-english born.

There's the criteria for eligibility, it's the same for most countries. It's one of the few transparent things about the selection process to be honest.

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Originally Posted by RhosgadMath

A Welsh scholar told me his definition of being "Welsh" is someone who can speak the language and I agree with him on that one.

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This means about 80% of Welsh people are not Welsh. :eek:

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Originally Posted by Yorkshire Thug

While I agree that it's perfectly possible to justify absolutely anything (teeth the colour of daffodils, knows all the words to "The Green Green Grass of Home", eats leeks every Sunday etc etc) I believe that such chicanery usually aims to improve collective team performance.

But, if that is not the intention, then why not include a full set of Welsh ladies in the team?

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I think the example of "G.G.G. of Home" is apposite since it was first made popular, at least in the USA, by Porter Wagoner in 1965 and he was born in West Plains, Missouri.

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Originally Posted by IainR

You close to a return? started running yet?

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Hope to do Llyn y Fan next weekend seeing as I've not been selected for Wales! I might be English born but we've got some fine leeks in the garden and I can even speak a bit of Welsh - proud of it as well!!!! Iechyd da!

Read something recently where in North East Wales the nearest maternity unit was in England, so technically speaking all born english, although welsh through and through. Think it was raised with home nations and football, parents live in wales, have child in chester hospital maternity unit, then return and child grows up in wales. What nationality is the child?

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Originally Posted by noel

This means about 80% of Welsh people are not Welsh. :eek:

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Not sure if that figure is completely accurate considering the number of school children there are in Wales who all learn Welsh to an extent.

Regards YT stating we should have 6 Welsh ladies in the squad...are that would be great but you try and find 6 Welsh born senior female fell runners!

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Originally Posted by biara

Read something recently where in North East Wales the nearest maternity unit was in England, so technically speaking all born english, although welsh through and through. Think it was raised with home nations and football, parents live in wales, have child in chester hospital maternity unit, then return and child grows up in wales. What nationality is the child?

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Hmmh, a child born in recent years will be Welsh as they would have been taught Welsh in schools, this also amazingly applies for 'Little England' of Flintshire and Wrexham!

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Originally Posted by Roadrunner

...I wasn't in the country when this trial took place and as it happens I have just withdrew from the team...

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so if andi's out who has been moved into the england team now?

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Originally Posted by arthurley

so if andi's out who has been moved into the england team now?

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Not just me out, but another as well from the same Uphill team!

I dont think i can comment on unfair eligibility ive got to prepare for the welsh trial. I will be very proud though if i do get it.

Why moan over the fact that your country is improving as a result of having a few runners who are evidently very proud to represent you despite being foreign

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

I dont think i can comment on unfair eligibility ive got to prepare for the welsh trial. I will be very proud though if i do get it.

Why moan over the fact that your country is improving as a result of having a few runners who are evidently very proud to represent you despite being foreign

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Correct, but the person who was moaning ain't Welsh or ain't running for Wales, YT was commenting on fact that there were such few Welsh ladies in the team. Any National eligibility rule is a great introduction in my view!

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Originally Posted by RhosgadMath

Correct, but the person who was moaning ain't Welsh or ain't running for Wales, YT was commenting on fact that there were such few Welsh ladies in the team. Any National eligibility rule is a great introduction in my view!

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Is it not 2 years residency for foreigners

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Originally Posted by TurboTom

Is it not 2 years residency for foreigners

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What I mean by rules is I'm happy for any Nationally linked person to represent any Nationality especially if that particular Country will do better in a particular competition.

Good luck in the Sedbergh event - are you getting Welsh kit for that one?

Anyway aren't all the Welsh female team actually Welsh, bar the aussie?

Andrea, Jackie, Gina, Carys, Angela, Jenny are all welsh aren't they? Not sure about Anna? is that by grand parent or birth?

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Originally Posted by RhosgadMath

What I mean by rules is I'm happy for any Nationally linked person to represent any Nationality especially if that particular Country will do better in a particular competition.

Good luck in the Sedbergh event - are you getting Welsh kit for that one?

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Cheers im hoping to get on the team by winning the North Wales race at Great Orme this weekend.
Not sure i think we get vests

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Originally Posted by IainR

Anyway aren't all the Welsh female team actually Welsh, bar the aussie?

Andrea, Jackie, Gina, Carys, Angela, Jenny are all welsh aren't they? Not sure about Anna? is that by grand parent or birth?

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Is Gina Paletta not borders region???????

I don't know, just knew she'd come through the Welsh Junior set up so assumed she was welsh.

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Originally Posted by IainR

I don't know, just knew she'd come through the Welsh Junior set up so assumed she was welsh.

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I seem to reme,ber speaking to someone about borders eligibility and a few scottish athletes were brought up and i think it was her but i may be mistaken. Does she run for wrexham

[QUOTE=IainR;253360]Anyway aren't all the Welsh female team actually Welsh, bar the aussie?

Andrea, Jackie, Gina, Carys, Angela, Jenny are all welsh aren't they? Not sure about Anna? is that by grand parent or birth?[/QUOTE

Deffo Andrea, Carys and Jenny....not sure regards others?