Safety Matters

Just saw a note on the Eryri FB site.. following an evening fell race... the first evening fell race so darkness occurs soon after the finish:

James H: 'I'm missing from the results'

This same race has lost runners or the results at least 3 times in the past 6 years.. There's obviously no checking who has finished from the numbers given out...

Each time its been harmless but results taking have a safety element.. I was slagged off in the news letter by the same RO for suggesting chip timing after the Peris debarcle.. I'd all but guarantee chip timing wouldn't make a mistake every two years.. before now they've had adverts on the club site saying please email in your position and timing..

This is all well and good for the results but recording who has finished is an important part of the safety features in the race..

The way we have it now alls OK until something goes wrong then the shit hits the fan.. and then things change, all reactive no proactive measures, well very few anyway.

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Originally Posted by IainR

Just saw a note on the Eryri FB site.. following an evening fell race... the first evening fell race so darkness occurs soon after the finish:

James H: 'I'm missing from the results'

This same race has lost runners or the results at least 3 times in the past 6 years.. There's obviously no checking who has finished from the numbers given out...

Each time its been harmless but results taking have a safety element.. I was slagged off in the news letter by the same RO for suggesting chip timing after the Peris debarcle.. I'd all but guarantee chip timing wouldn't make a mistake every two years.. before now they've had adverts on the club site saying please email in your position and timing..

This is all well and good for the results but recording who has finished is an important part of the safety features in the race..

The way we have it now alls OK until something goes wrong then the shit hits the fan.. and then things change, all reactive no proactive measures, well very few anyway.

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I've been involved, on the periphery, of races where every runner was accounted for, but where the results weren't quite right, with the odd person missing. This can be to do with missing times; mis-recorded numbers; numbers unreadable (on legs etc); retiring runners giving the wrong number; or poor typing.

I don't know the circumstances of the race you mention, but it doesn't always imply that the RO hasn't checked that everyone is back.

I am not in the results from the rather well organised Black Combe Race because I failed to download at the finish (I had my own dibber and I was completely out of it when I finished, so didn't think - even though I also orienteer) - but they checked that I was back!

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Originally Posted by wharfeego

Quite right.

AL; instead of papping on and on and on and on with your really difficult to comprehend posts (I guess that few readers totally understand them) why don't you just once and for all put together a simple to read list of the new rules you'd like to see put in place. And post them on here, not as a PM.
I'm beginning to wonder if you are totally serious about this thread, or perhaps you're the perfect wind-up merchant?

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Because it is not about rules, race documentation is about planning and supervision.

1/The rules are in essence just two - (and the rules document not a lot bigger...1.5 pages is one version of it)

-That an RO writes a plan to guidelines and templates, and undertakes to follow it - (as part of which he is precise about what he is offering to do for runners, with a checklist as basis of permit ensuring some core issues have been attended ) - the plan including written tasking of all involved

- That the runner obeys all entry conditions and race day instructions from the RO and his officials, so runner instructions are self contained.

The devil is in the fine detail of how that is done. There are right ways to do it and very wrong ways. The documentation hasto provide an audit and review trail.

And

2/Safety is far more than documentation, it is a set of activities for a safety officer, many of which are not and have not been done - such as qualification of good practice before use it.

Is that understandable enough?

Needs doing around a core variety of races to make sure the guidelines have anticipated the main issues arising in practice . Then trialling to make sure RO are happy creating them from guidelines
Skeleton guidelines are straightforward but fleshing them out needs to be done in conjunction with creating actual plans. Then is time to decide how to proceed.

There is a properly reviewed process involved in producing what is needed.
It does not need much time - a month to get to trialling -, it does need several RO involved and commitment.

But then I have said all that before months ago.
Arguing detail on existing rules has served to obscure the real issues which are somethng else entirely.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IainR

Just saw a note on the Eryri FB site.. following an evening fell race... the first evening fell race so darkness occurs soon after the finish:

James H: 'I'm missing from the results'

This same race has lost runners or the results at least 3 times in the past 6 years.. There's obviously no checking who has finished from the numbers given out...

Each time its been harmless but results taking have a safety element.. I was slagged off in the news letter by the same RO for suggesting chip timing after the Peris debarcle.. I'd all but guarantee chip timing wouldn't make a mistake every two years.. before now they've had adverts on the club site saying please email in your position and timing..

This is all well and good for the results but recording who has finished is an important part of the safety features in the race..

The way we have it now alls OK until something goes wrong then the shit hits the fan.. and then things change, all reactive no proactive measures, well very few anyway.

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That is one of the best posts on the thread.
I have seen all sorts of oddities in results that prove that things are falling down cracks.

The same runner seen twice in results, another not at all.
Misreading or mishearing of numbers is inevitable whether or not partially obscured - anyone involved in quality systems and standards accepts that coping with human error is all part of it.

And proactive vs reactive is one of my big hobby horses.
No document should ever be frozen, review is a continuous update in the light of experience.

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Originally Posted by Lecky

I've been involved, on the periphery, of races where every runner was accounted for, but where the results weren't quite right, with the odd person missing. This can be to do with missing times; mis-recorded numbers; numbers unreadable (on legs etc); retiring runners giving the wrong number; or poor typing.

I don't know the circumstances of the race you mention, but it doesn't always imply that the RO hasn't checked that everyone is back.

I am not in the results from the rather well organised Black Combe Race because I failed to download at the finish (I had my own dibber and I was completely out of it when I finished, so didn't think - even though I also orienteer) - but they checked that I was back!

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I do think they should be recorded as a DNF... its easy to fall between cracks..

I did a 50k abroad and had trouble working out who was to be told, in the end I handed in my chip but also FB messaged the organiser personally... this was after an issue I'd caused at the ben by registering but not starting, but not adding my chip in at the start so thought I'd not be counted as a starter..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by IainR

Just saw a note on the Eryri FB site.. following an evening fell race... the first evening fell race so darkness occurs soon after the finish:

James H: 'I'm missing from the results'

This same race has lost runners or the results at least 3 times in the past 6 years.. There's obviously no checking who has finished from the numbers given out...

Each time its been harmless but results taking have a safety element.. I was slagged off in the news letter by the same RO for suggesting chip timing after the Peris debarcle.. I'd all but guarantee chip timing wouldn't make a mistake every two years.. before now they've had adverts on the club site saying please email in your position and timing..

This is all well and good for the results but recording who has finished is an important part of the safety features in the race..

The way we have it now alls OK until something goes wrong then the shit hits the fan.. and then things change, all reactive no proactive measures, well very few anyway.

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WPette won that one - her 3rd win on the bounce down there. I've been looking at some of her Strava splits on the Thursday night session Iain and she's putting your old ones under a bit of pressure :)

To be fair, I agree with Lecky (first for a while :) ).
Whilst I accept you will have some local knowledge of this race Iain, it's not right to take what happens in the results generally and associate it with athletes unaccounted for.
Results are one of the ways, but not the only way.

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Originally Posted by alwaysinjured

...Is that understandable enough?...

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Sounds foreign to me.
I'll give you credit for the amount of time you're putting into this thread but I really don't understand your speak, sorry fella.
You'll be pleased to know that I won't comment on this thread again (I just couldn't prevent myself from having a li'le p!ss take, sorry if I offended).
I'm off mole catching now and will use my small-minded brain to risk assess as I go along my merry way.
Good luck in your conquest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wharfeego

I'm off mole catching now...

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Why do people catch moles, Wharfeego?

I've just found a list after a short Google search, but most of these don't apply to the fields round us (but the farmers still do it), and I suspect half are made up as they're on a mole catchers website. http://www.norfolkmolecatcher.co.uk/...r.mole.control

Quote:

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Originally Posted by wharfeego

Sounds foreign to me.
I'll give you credit for the amount of time you're putting into this thread but I really don't understand your speak, sorry fella.
You'll be pleased to know that I won't comment on this thread again (I just couldn't prevent myself from having a li'le p!ss take, sorry if I offended).
I'm off mole catching now and will use my small-minded brain to risk assess as I go along my merry way.
Good luck in your conquest.

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Out of curiosity what camera do you carry for "whilst racing" photos Andy?
Seriously classy shots - but must be something small and light..

Coming to which - what sort of lens did you use for the spider and bug shots?

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Originally Posted by noel

Why do people catch moles, Wharfeego?

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They don't like me 😢