See you at Cookridge Mr B.
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See you at Cookridge Mr B.
I generally run every day on the build-up to a race.... but in terms of hard effort i'd usually want minimum two clear days of easy running prior to a race.... so if the weekend race was a sunday, i'd do a thursday session, but if it was a saturday race then i'd skip the thursday session.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
Exception being the inter-counties this weekend where i want to be absolutely fresh... i'll do tonight's session then it will be easy all the way to sunday.
I have been slightly more reckless in the past.... in fact i got a pb by about 15mins at Roaches, less than 24hrs after running an XC fixture... and have also ran the Marsden-Edale Trigger the day after XC.... but in this year's spirit of being more sensible, it just doesn't appeal to me to hit a target race with anything less than 100% fresh legs.
Ya see, i can't get my head around the idea of a parkrun having any sort of impact on your legs; so long as you're running well that is, like you and i normally do, 3/4+ times a week that is. Are you referring to microtearing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
Yes. I'm going for a recce this week, just a slow one i think. There are so many twists and turns in Golden Acre i think i need to know exactly where i'm going and when, and what to expect, i can't get a race plan together otherwise. I'll be starting nice and fast though.Quote:
Originally Posted by MattPo
Perhaps we just have different outlook, and different physiology.... but i'm completely the opposite... i can't see any way that running a hard 5km 24hrs before a target race can have anything but a negative effect.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
This isn't a swipe at fellrunners by any means... but i don't know any other group of runners who would consider it remotely sensible... all our guys at the club will be running easy in the build up to a race of any discipline...
I have done it before, and i'm sure at some point i'll do it again (it was only xmas week that i ran two fell races in 24hrs), but in a year when i'm looking for pb's in every fell race, i just don't see the point in turning up on a start line potentially less than 100%.....
I'm not saying it would have a huge effect on me... but for example the Fairfield Horseshoe coming up... if i ran a hard 5km the day before i'd certainly not be enjoying that 45 minute fast descent.
I think in your case you are right Travs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
And it does all depend on what one's individual targets are. I think the notion of a PB in fell running is slightly unsound because conditions vary so much - relative to track or road running - but when I was in my pomp I always tried to remember that 95% of fell runners just want to race for fun, have modest targets, never expect to win anything and probably aren't overly bothered about PBs.
Currently in cycling Demi Vollering is winning road races against the best cyclists in the world every few days and nobody is telling her to take it easy. Wins are wins and may never come again. A cyclist's career can be ended in a heart beat.
But what do I know? I raced a lot - 86 races one year. I once raced 7 times in 12 days. I don't know if that produced any PBs but I know I won my category each time. I think I probably won some socks or a bottle of wine but fortunately no medals.
And I also know the last time I was injured it was during a parkrun which my physio explained was because as a fell runner my legs were not used to running downhill on tarmac at full stretch.
Dangerous things parkruns!:)
We are all different, and that should never be underestimated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
My personal experience was that I struggled to walk, let alone run, 48 hours after a race. My legs felt heavy, sore, and just unable to do much.
Yes, I had a serious bio-mechanical issue that had something to do with it, but I believe a bigger factor was that I gave it everything, and I mean absolutely everything, in races - finishing ahead of people who consistently beat me in training. On at least one occasion I had to be dragged down the finishing funnel by two burly marshals because my buckling legs wouldn't support me.
We are all different and I'm not sure the above was 100 percent sensible, but it did see my results improve right up to (and including) my last race.
In my younger days I sometimes raced twice in a weekend, and it was quite common for me to feel better on the Sunday than the Saturday; maybe I had over-eaten in preparation for the strenuous weekend, and felt rather heavy on the Saturday, but lighter on the Sunday. Having come into fell running from orienteering, where multi-day events are a major feature of the sport, there didn't seem anything unusual about racing on successive days.
Tonight's session was a recce of the Cookridge Community 10k, most parts of it were run, but i had to chop bits out to account for me living 1.5ml or so from the start. There's 350' of climb in the route and, judging by my Bolton Abbey 10k time of 47.31 i reckon every 100' costs me a minute or so. My pre-pandemic 10k PB is 38.38, but post-pandemic i'd be all in at 40. I think a conservative target time for sunday is sub-45, but sub-44 would be a tremendous effort. I've got some beet-it shots in the mail which of course may not turn up in time, and i think i'm going to have to wear shorts and compression socks to save my calves from fatigue. My race plan is to not start too fast, and i think i'll skip parkrun on saturday; there doesn't seem to be any parts of the course where as a fell runner i will have the advantage. A top 10% finish would be ideal.
Mr B flying this morning! 15th place and first in his age group, I was second in mine, at the Cookridge 10K. Now back to fell running! Well done Luke
Second in my age category as it turned out, MV35-45, some guy I hadn't noticed was a long way ahead.
42.48 for 10k with 350' of climb, I don't know what that equates to for a flat time, it's probably not under 40m. I started in the 3rd row and still set off in 5th place, there was a reluctance amongst the faster guys to step up. I found myself in a group who were too fast for me and they dropped me at 3k, the climb knocked me a bit and I had lost a few places at the top. I faded at 6k and just had to hang on and not get passed too much. I went early in the last km hoping the runners who had passed me would fade on the gruelling uphill drag to the finish or just give in a bit. They were only 10m ahead but I was all in just to maintain that. Couldn't even find a sprint finish, all my eggs had been put in one basket 1km earlier! Finished in 15th place.
A few local parkruns...?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
That post must've been a while ago.... 2015 maybe?
Last chance to prepare for Fairfield today, 12 reps of Elbolton Hill from the Thorpe fell gate, each rep is 0.1m/250' so 1.2m/3000' in total. The last two were a drag. Had some food and a pint of Robinson's Dizzy Blonde in the Fountaine Inn after.
If i recall correctly, its 58mins for me to the summit of Fairfield from the start.
I probably need to knock a minute or two off that.
Historical results don't seem to show splits, but i think i was about 1.07 to Fairfield so sub 1.05 will suit me. I think i'm better prepared this time and can probably climb a bit faster, i'll also be looking for this faster but longer line round the left of the first craggy bit after Fairfield. I just took the path last time and it was a drag. 1.47.53 last time, sub 1.40 is my target and i don't care about the bad step, i'll just go down it if i find it again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
4.5m with horsforth harriers last night, just a recovery run from monday's 3000'. Thursday will probably be the same.
My pb is 1:45:44 and i'll be happy to just go quicker than that. If i run a pb and don't get in the v40 points then so be it.
Would be astounded if i got down to 1:40.... i don't see that level of improvement being possible for me.
It'll only be possible for me on the downhill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
How's the ankle Mr B?
Hopefully you'll be able to get on the bike soon to keep the legs and lungs ticking over ready for your next comeback.
Cheers LB, it's still quite sore, i'm going to try and get going on tarmac after 2wks rest. I've already begun my balance and proprioception excercises, but it will be around 4mths before i race offroad again, never known one get better sooner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llani Boy
I've had a gut upset for the last 10 days at least now, I don't know what it is and I've never had one for this long before. Perhaps you have some advice, Mike t? Symptoms are the trots, faint nausea that comes and goes, gut discomfort and loss of appetite.
After being cleared to resume training by the chiropractor after some adjustments to my right leg and ankle, I attended a track session with horsforth harriers tonight. 15mins at HM pace, 10mins at 10k pace, 5mins at 5k pace. For me the mmp felt like 11, 8.5, 7. I was shocked at how little oomph I had for the last effort, I think this gut rot has something to do with it.
It is worth seeing your GP about this. Do you drink from pools/tarns/streams on the fells? It may be worth sending off a stool sample - but as I say, see your GP.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
It started to manifest in the days after Fairfield. I drank about a bottle full of stream water from the gullies on the way up the nab. I'll book an online consultation, you can't get in to see a person any longer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
Bramley parkrun this morning, 24.50, which was bang on as i had a 25m pacing vest on. I think that doing pacing runs will stop me from getting involved in any racing and taking undue risks, it must also be a big milestone for any improvers.
Bramley parkrun this morning, 20.38, pretty much business as usual with 2 strong laps followed by a flat final lap which cost me the time. I'm going to consult the coach guy who does track sessions with horsforth harriers to see if I can do anything about this weak third lap.
The damage in my ankle from Fairfield has now stabilised, the short lived symptoms have gone and I'm now into the long haul waiting for the long term damage to repair. The talofibular has taken a bigger hit than previously thought and the whole joint capsule is affected long term. It's now about making good, rational decisions to minimise risk and promote healing...which in a nutshell is no fell racing.
After finding out horsforth harriers have access to Trinity College's track on Thursday, I headed up after work. I'd cycled home so was a bit drained. I did 15mins at 2mins/400, and 10mins at 1.40mins/400. The coach turned up as I was about to finish the 3mins rest and attempt 5mins at 1.30mins/400, so I put a few questions to him.
He was telling me how if you do too much fast and hard training the body never develops the cellular biochemical conditions to generate power effectively. It's all to do with ATP and mitochondria and crap. He told me I ought to be doing one fast parkrun a month and a lot more running at about 8.30mmp based on my typical parkrun time of 20m. The way I do things at the moment, with my fast sessions and plenty of racing, my body is missing the tools to produce maximum motion at a cellular level.
It's news to me.
Its fairly commonly regarded that there should be around an 80:20 split between easy miles:effort
For me, if i try and push above two sessions a week then its unsustainable... if i'm racing consecutive weekends then sometimes can't manage any sessions between, its just too arduous on the body/recovery.
And i think this is one of the main "disciplines" to master in training.... being disciplined enough to run easy when you should... of course if you run twice a day, most days, like me, it can be quite boring.
I should probably take more full rest days.... this is something i definitely haven't mastered.
I used to think that running "slow" runs too fast meant simply being too tired to run fast runs fast enough. But it is a bit more complicated than that. If we don't run slow enough often/long enough we fail to develop our aerobic - mitochondrial - biochemical pathways, so we keep having to go anaerobic at too slow a pace so are forced to slow down even more. If you cannot chat in sentences then your slow runs are too fast.
My problem is milage getting added. I have a long standing problem with patella chondromalacia from historical maltracking, and compensation/stability issues lateral to both legs that stems from my lumbar and tend to affect ITB and anterolateral ligament. All this means i have to keep miles down. However it would be worth slowing down my tempo runs and trying to add extra slow runs on days i'm not cycling; they will be very short runs, but perhaps asking my body to generate power more often will have a beneficial effect irrespective of how far i run. With this in mind, i went for a run today, first friday run ever.
2.5m slow XC at around 9mmp followed by a micro session on the college track consisting of:
3 laps at 1.40mins/400
2 laps at 1.30mins/400
1 lap flat out, 74.53, which is now my official 400m PB time.
Then just a steady jog home.
Coach Kelvin advised me that i'm doing too many fast parkruns too, so i'm going to back off to one fast one per month and do the rest as 25min pacing runs, if i'm wearing a pacer vest i'll have to stick to that time so can't shoot off.
Parkruns have pacers? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
My local parkrun will have a "pacer event" maybe once every 3 months or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llani Boy
You can actually get paid to run in some decent half-marathons, 10km's etc if you agree to be a pacer.... if that's your sort of thing.... although that probably means having to turn up and run at a level slower than your max effort, which doesn't appeal to me...!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
Bramley parkrun has pacing overvests with numbers 20 to 35 written on the back. You just let the run director know what you are intending on, get the vest, and they announce all the pacing times at the start briefing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llani Boy
Bramley parkrun this morning, 24.57, you can't get much closer than that on a 25m pacing run. It was the 8th birthday of Bramley parkrun and they went for a pirate theme, as in pieces of eight. There was a big turnout from other clubs, northowram pumas were there, but I have no idea who they are.
Today was my first two session day. I've considered more slower sessions before, but it was impossible to convert my existing runs as they were too hilly and had to be hard sessions, so I lost interest. If I'm to run more slow runs, I have to add sessions, but I have no idea what impact that will have on my niggles.
The second run was the 6m/650' timble loop from fewston car park, don't Google it, I invented it myself. The big news is that high lane in nether timble is dry! Some may be familiar with this rusty sludge ridden, stinking pog infested bridle track by the way it plasters you up to your shins. It is now dry...I repeat, dry. The Washburn valley, Yorkshire's forgotten dale, was looking stunning in the summer sun and many trout were spotted in the river. I took tea and cake at the Washburn heritage centre and was dripping with sweat after finishing my tea, but who eats cake with chilled fizzy pop?
The route was too rough for someone with a rolled ankle, so I may have to switch to the reservoir figure eight next time. The ancient pony tracks the loop follows are badly washed out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
I read about an 80:20 (easy/hard) split years ago and have always tried to do it. For the benefit of those of us in the injured/recovering from injury or surgery/bio-mechanically disadvantaged categories, I have a question that I'm hoping Mike T, or anyone else with suitable knowledge and/or experience, may be able to answer:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
"Do you think that it is possible to do the easy effort, 80 percent part, of the 80:20 using a different activity, such as swimming, cycling or walking, or is it important that the 80 percent part is done with running because you are using the required muscles in the correct way?"
I'd be grateful of any considered thoughts on this, as like several other people here I will now always be restricted on the running mileage I can do.
Thanks
Looks like the ship is listing already, it turns out I have posterior tibial tendonitis or something. I know when this happened, black combe, it's been hanging about for ages, but not fully manifesting as anything concrete. Might be able to get it under control with comfrey and massage.
4m in the fields and woods this evening.
We can now add hallux rigidus in the other foot to my list of things that don't like extra slow running. I'm going to have to back off it all and drip feed it all back in one step at a time, just going out for a run whenever i feel like it is off the cards, and historically always has been so not a lot has changed.
Does anyone have any feedback on Marco's question, i'm intrigued too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
My (amateur) opinion is the 80% preferably needs to be running, as you are then building the necessary strength/conditioning to be able to sustain the higher-intensity sessions.
Although this may fly in the face of popular opinion.... a large number of clubmates attain a far higher level of ability than me, off a far lower weekly mileage.... i find though that my level of performance remains fairly constant, where others on lower mileage reach higher "highs" but don't always consistently perform.
I doubt swimming or non power walking would help as substitutes for the "easy" 80%. Swimming uses the wrong muscles, and ordinary walking is too easy. The sort of power walking that fell runners do would help, as would cycling. Training for endurance takes time, but fortunately can be done at any age, as long as there is nothing else that is limiting, such as heart disease. Training the muscles' biochemistry for speed takes much less time, but risks injury, and the effect fades quickly; the skill aspect of speed, like a language, is best learnt when young.
I would have thought cycling, especially out of the saddle where i spend a lot of time, is close enough to running. My kneecap tracking alters when i cycle due to the preferential use of the lateral quads in a cycling position, leading to problems, but when i'm dancing on the pedals i'm better off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
Thanks for your answers and opinions, I'll listen to anyone, and any theories, on this as I don't know the answer. I do appreciate there's a bit of "we're all different" too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
What I do know, however, is that a number of us, (myself most definitely included), are unable to do any great volume of running, and that if we are to run competitively, (in whatever form that takes), then doing the 80 percent, or a large amount of it, will be necessary in non-running exercise.
As this was an issue for me through the latter years (including all of my fell running), I have some anecdotal experience that cycling does at least give you some aerobic fitness that can be used. Likewise, I have noted that one of our respected members, GB, used a cycling-based approach to training successfully in his later years of racing.
My concern, is what Mike T said about developing aerobic - mitochondrial -biochemical pathways (below). If I develop such pathways in a barely-used hamstring activity, such as cycling, will the pathways in the mitochondria of my hamstrings get the benefit? Or will it just be my quads?.
As I said above, I'll listen to anyone's thoughts on this. Thanks againQuote:
Originally Posted by Mike T