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was in two minds at start of race: old, fairly worn walshes or brand new inov8s.
I gambled on the inov8s and didnt fall once but must admit, I found them heavier and cumbersome compared to my walshs. I think I prefer re-soled walshs, but hey.. horses for courses.
Wheres the bland van when you need it?
Yes, I was another non-starter. I got injured and then had work commitments. Very sadly I had to give it a miss. I offered my place on the relevant thread but no-one took me up on the offer. Yes it does piss me off when I can't get into races that fill up so quickly but my reasons were valid, came to light some time after the entry date and I wasn't to know them at the time of entry. So name and shame me if you wish but my place was there on offer, no-one wanted it so as far as I can see easy money for the organisers.
I'm gobsmacked and full of admiration. Just viewed your photos and they capture the spirit of this race perfectly. How the hel* you managed to take that many and run the race as well beggers belief. Without critising other photos I've seen, you got it just right with the backdrop adding greatly to the shot. One criticism, couldn't you run the whole way backwards and show the gambit of emotions in their faces.http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/images/icons/icon12.gif Maybe you could take a camcorder next time! Now that would be something. Sorry to be a geek but what camera have you got?Quote:
Originally Posted by topofahill
Glad you're enjoying the photos from Borrowdale and thanks for the kind compliments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Lucker
Alan: yes, you are welcome to use some of them on your blog - a credit would be appreciated though, cheers.
I've taken quite a few photos from a few races now, which some of you will have already seen. It's not easy taking shots on the hoof, especially over rough ground, but like everything else, it improves with practice (that is, if you haven't bust your camera - or neck - trying!). I do stop to take some shots though.
Yes, I filter out the blurred and un-showable shots and generally spend hours afterwards sorting through them to select the best representative shots. For many shots, I also have to resort to cropping and some degree of digital manipulation to try and make them more presentable.
Hope that's answered a few Qs - no more please!
I also took a short piece of video footage during the race, which I may put on the web ...
fab pics - would it be OK if I put a few on my blog also (credited to you of course) - I didnt take any photos the whole weekend.....Quote:
Originally Posted by topofahill
I organise a fell race and had already decided (after 3 Peaks) that I was going to charge £25 for pre-entry or £3.50 on the day...pins provided! I would only need four non starters to double my takings.
Superb set of photos - they capture a race like no other sequence I've seen. Some belting individual photos, too!
Not just the race, it was a great weekend (if a little damp for camping).
Fantastic to see Lloyd back up at the sharp end - makes you wonder what he might have done if he'd been properly fit.
It was certainly a strong field this year - the starting line-up was like a 'Who's who of British Fell-running'. 2 years ago I managed to finish 33rd in 3hr 46min. This year I was 6 minutes faster but only managed 82nd!
Hope all the DNFs were ok - no serious injuries. Sideburns, are you ok? I didn't see you at the finish. (By the way, Scoffer's new sideburns have got nothing on yours!!)
Considering that 460 started Borrowdale, the organisers had obviously expected plenty of drop-outs and taken more than the original 500 entries. I don't think it's a problem, so long as there is a mechanism for switching entries right up until the day.
Incidentally, at the Lake District Mountain Trial a couple of years ago we paid a £5 premium on the entry fee, but then if you turned up were given a £5 voucher to spend in one of the outdoor shops in Ambleside.
Yeah, sure skippy (I enjoy your pics too).Quote:
Originally Posted by skippy
Same goes for anyone else who'd like to use my photos on a blog - just a simple credit will do fine.
Thanks again for the compliments from everyone.
Adidas Swoops re-soled with LSA 10mm studs; so much grip my knees are still hurting now :)
Thanks topofahill. It is very kind of you to share them.
I too think its fair enough to have the race as pre-entry only and to expect a reasonable number of non-starters. No need or point to naming and shaming. I trust however that the vast majority of these non-starters did try and pass their entry on to someone else.
Where I do think pre-entries and non-starters becomes a real problem is in the case of races like Ben Nevis, which allow people to enter up to a year in advance and which dont (so far as I know) allow any substitutions at all. I'd be interested to know what others think of the pre-entry issue, but I thought for Scoffer (who did a magnificent job in all respects, by the way) to set an earliest entry date of 31 May - 2 months before the race - was quite acceptable.
Does Pete Balnd re - sole walshes?
Given there were less Borrowdale starters in 2008 than in 2004, is fellrunning now over the hill?
ONCE again, this just adds more weight behind my argument that Championships should a one off race (as they are on the road, xc, and in all the big sports).......there should be no entry limit, and given that its a one off race organisers should be able to acrue the correct number of marshalls etc to make the event run smoothly......like they do every year with the fell relays............if it was pre-entry it would give them a good idea of the numbers they have to cater for.....if they were brave or bold they could go for entry on the day as well.............Quote:
Originally Posted by MICKEYFINN
To combat the other side of the coin.....have a LONG DISTANCE championship held in April time, and have a SHORT / MEDIUM championship held in August time ..............this will give runners the opportunity to prepare suitably for both if they wish. The short / medium race could be alternated yearly eg- 5 miles short race one year, a 9 mile medium race the next.....and so on.
Furthermore, in terms of the British FELL CHAMPIONSHIPS.......hold one of the 2 championship races in England every year, and the other alternating yearly between SCOTLAND, NORTHERN IRELAND and WALES..........
As its a one-off championship races, numbers from the celtic countries SHOULD be up (most people would be prepared to travel for a 1 off race), and likewise ENGLISH runners should be prepared to travel to the celtic countries for a 1 off championship race......
You could potentially do something similar with the relays though its perhaps less practical......to further boost numbers however, you could have a TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP decided on points accrued from both the LONG DISTANCE championship in April and the SHORT / MEDIUM championship in August.......
Those who favour the current format ie- 6 races with 4 to count, could retain that in the form of a FELLRUNNER OF THE YEAR award......working on a grand prix system..............
DAMN, I TALK SENSE.....SOMEONE STICK ME ON A COMMITTEE AND GIVE ME SOME POWER:rolleyes:
Not really.Quote:
Originally Posted by FellMonster
Fell running takes place across a sensitive environment. Your idea is OK for a trudge up the Llanberis path up Snowdon with all age groups sexes starting separately, but not for a route like borrowdale.
That has to be the primary concern when organising a race, the disruption caused to the local people, landowners, and environment.
I can't see how else Scoffer et al could organise this race any better:
1. Numbers have to be limited for a race like Borrowdale for environmental reasons.
2. For safety reasons the race has to be pre-entry so a runner's credentials can be, if not actually checked, at least specified on the entry form.
3. A substitution system was in place - I missed out on a place, but managed to substitute with someone who couldn't run (Thanks Goldie.)
There are lots of reasons why people can't run: injury, illness, work commitments, car problems etc... There were a few in my club that didn't run for a variety of reasons, but they all tried to find substitutes. I don't think there's any point in "naming and shaming."
In my view the organisation of the race was spot on. To get 460 at the start with a limit of 500 is doing very well.
The question I have is how many people didn't get to run who really wanted to? There were places being offered on here in the week up to the race, and that's how I got mine without too much difficulty (thanks). If I had got a place back in June and couldn't run, then I'd have offered my place to someone else. In my view this works much better than the excess entries and no transfer policy operated at say the Flora London Marathon, and it's much more in keeping with the spirit of fellrunning.
I have a distinct problem with your argument IAIN.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
Number 1- On a race like Borrowdale - over 17 miles and a vast number of mountains- people will inevitably take a wide variety of racing lines if you would......so the its not like the same ground will be battered by all the runners....
Number 2- If someone has deemed it fit for the Borrowdale route to take 500, then in reality what is the difference between 700 wandering over the route in comparison with 500? In real terms, its gonna make little difference to be perfectly honest - limits in races, as much as anything, are usually imposed for safety reasons for both competitors and marshalls.
Number 3- Impose an extra £1 on the entry fee which will be given back to the area for conservation issues or concerns- £700 is a reasonable amount of money.
Number 4- Races like Borrowdale, Snowdon (Since you chose to mention it) do attract a little tourism and inevitably money into these local areas for shops and hotels- it's usually (tho not always) to the benefit of these areas also..........that could not be said for your average fell race
Number 5 - You mention that my idea is "OK" for the llanberis path if everyone starts separately.......is that how the SNOWDON race is run??? I think not sir. I fear your comments about primary concern being disruption to landowners, local community, erosion etc while holding some weight (and I do grant that environmental impact is rightly a concern) is as much pandering to the masses on the forum so that you may be hailed as a conscientious messiah and protector of the environment. Your average fell runner, rightly or wrongly, probably doesnt give a monkeys about the environment WITHIN GOOD REASON....they just want to run the hills and most (but not all - see this years duddon thread and last years pendle race) are thankfully happy to take their rubbish with them
Yours ballbaggedly,
FellMonster
I MAY BE TOTALLY AND UTTERLY WRONG BUT:Quote:
Originally Posted by crowhill
1) I think Borrowdale has been Entry on the day in previous years
2) Do you REALLY think someone checks people's credentials and the race results from races they have said they completed on their entry forms? That would take a very keen, and enthusiastic organiser with a lot of spare time on his/her hands indeed!
3) You could still have the requirements in place on the entry form for people to fill in on the day.....it is important to remember that FELL RUNNING as a sport relies on a sense of responsibility on the competitors part- they are responsible ultimately for their own safety in the hills- otherwise, could you imagine the size of the rulebook needed for it?? madness
Quote:
Originally Posted by FenlandFellrunner
This is what I call talking sense.
Iain also has a point the numbers have to be limited to a reasonable amount due to the environmental impact. Remember how boggy and cut up parts were. About 170 pairs of shoes had gone over the ground when I got there, and there were still about 250 yet to cover it, but it was very noticeable in parts. i.e. Bessyboot to Esk Hause.
I think the overall organization of the race was excellent. I really enjoyed it.
My Sub 4 hour target will wait for next year. :)
Firstly, WHY THE SHOUTING?Quote:
Originally Posted by FellMonster
Secondly,
1) It has, but the English/British Champ status would be expected to swell numbers.
2) No I don't for a minute, hence my comment "If not actually checked". Though I can see why a race organiser who might have to call on mountain rescue might want to dissuade someone completely inexperienced and might just do so by stipulating previous experience.
3) Of course it does, never said it didn't. Just said there was a substitute system in place.
My post was in response to daft suggestions to name and shame non-runners and a vote of approval for Scoffer and the race organisers for doing a good job.
I'm really trying to understand what can possibly be getting your goat I'm really struggling to work it out. You did start your post with "I MAY BE TOTALLY AND UTTERLY WRONG" - You're right, I think you are, you're barking up the wrong tree.
Number 1: Were you at Borrowdale. A wide variety of lines? Maybe once we hit scafell the route choice varied, but the first third and last 1/4 I'd say 90% of us took near identical lines.
Number 2: Of course it would, you are talking of an almost 50% increase in numbers, as it was parking was just about full. Another 50% and I think we may have had trouble.
Number 3: I actually think any race should donate some money (from the runners fee) to the local conservation/footpath repairs.
Number 4: there's benefitting locals and there is full stop pissing them off by blocking roads, toilets and taking over an area.
Number 5: Yes I ran snowdon, jump over my back wall and I start running up it. No it isn't, its run as one race, but only 500 ran, like at borrowdale, make it a one off race and I doubt it would cope, I doubt many races could cope. Locals must be considered to a point, sadly without landowners say so races are tricky to organise. Read the CRoW act. And yes I think a large number of runners care about their environmental impact.
And I agree, I thought Borrowdale passed well. I've not heard of any runners who failed to get entry in the end. It was a nice size, a large race, but the start could tolerate it, and the start/finish area could too.
This is a sad and dispiriting thread. If I believed for one minute that the average fell runner "doesn't give a monkey's about the environment" I would leave the FRA and never run another race.
I'm new to this game and am immensely impressed by the care and commitment of the race organisers. It must be love because it aint money, the entrance fees to most races are insignificant.
I'm sure everyone who enters intends to run,its just that life and sometimes death gets in the way. Some simple standby system should be easy to arrange although as already pointed out numbers were available on here up to the day.
I'm so proud to be part of this thing we share (albeit at the back) all this demanding rules and namings and shamings seems to demean us all.
2) Do you REALLY think someone checks people's credentials and the race results from races they have said they completed on their entry forms? That would take a very keen, and enthusiastic organiser with a lot of spare time on his/her hands indeed!
I doubt that his would ever be done. However spot checks wouldn't take too long on the internet. I think the main aim is to leave you in no doubt as to the difficulty of the race that you are entering. If you lied it would also give the organizer some comeback in any ensuing litigation. God forbid.
The rest of your problems seam to have been well answered by other forumites, I hope you see their very valid points of view.:)
Sadly, judging by the number of discarded gel packets I saw at Borrowdale a few don't...Quote:
Originally Posted by Henry Porter
I MAY BE TOTALLY AND UTTERLY WRONG BUT:
No need to shout!
Huw - where did you get your swoops resoled?Quote:
Originally Posted by Huw
Would be really useful seeing as they aren't making them anymore:(
I would think that Huw used Lancashire Shoe Repairs - they are based in Burnley and will resole more or less any trainer with their "Edmundson unit" which is what was originally on the Felldancer shoes. They have a website lsr.gb.comQuote:
Originally Posted by bogtrotter
Firstly- I was not shouting- I was typing, and just happened to have bold on and was too lazy to take it off again.Quote:
Originally Posted by crowhill
Secondly- Your response made me laugh greatly.....nothing is getting on my goat.....if you look at last year (when Borrowdale was not a championship race, you'll see that there was still 500 limit and pre-entry and it all got messy and filled up before the time limit and there was still whinging etc.....the championship status, therefore, has made little difference to the numbers)
Of course race organisers want to deter people without necessary mountain experience- I'm not and have never questioned that- the simple fact is that they are people with jobs, who often run themselves and have other responsibilities- they have NOT got the time to go through and check people's credentials.....thats where the responsibility must lie on the individual entering the race.
Finally, I never said that you said it didn't....i was just making the point. I wasnt' barking up any tree at all mate.......
Someone asked me recently if I was secretly YORKSHIRE THUG (which made me laugh greatly). WHY? I responded. They then said that they thought it was me because I was annoying C**t too. I went away quite flattered really.
For some reason my comments have almost seen to be taken as a dig at the race organiser...hardly.....in fact, its a question of the opposite.....i simply was making the point that one off championship races would help prevent whinging, while helping increase participants from celtic countries (what the organising committee had hoped for) and also would be more managable than most people think.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
Finally, for any numbnuts who think that by typing in bold I'm raising my voice- I'd like to see you ask some nerd typing in bold in a public library to keep his voice down-I'm merely typing in bold here so Iain can see my response to his comments. Is that OK?
haha.....demanding rules shames us all......we have more in common than you may think dear friendQuote:
Originally Posted by Henry Porter
I agree that theyve been answered though will disagree on the extent of their validity if I may chose to be so bold.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Lucker
You make a valid point that spot checks could be easily done, and I'm not for a second advocating that people should lie on their entry forms to race. However, at the end of the day, an organiser organises a race......there are rules put in place (and thankfully they are few and far between and largely common sense).....if an individual chooses to ignore or break these then it is largely on their own head.......hardly an organisers fault.....
has there been cases of litigation in fellrunning in the past? You've made me curious........surely its not that kind of sport.
If you take this alongside the increasing number of complaints at similar, mostly LONG, races of similarish stature eg- duddon and pendle, you start to see that in this respect, its getting in worse.Quote:
Originally Posted by stumpy
Typing in caps lock or in bold is not necessarily indicitave of shouting.......would you approach a person typing in caps lock or bold in a public library and ask them to keep the noise down? I think not!:)Quote:
Originally Posted by invalidpassword
I dont care whether bold type is shouting or not, i just wish you'd stop typing;)Quote:
Originally Posted by FellMonster
Trust it to be you, you numpty
Quote:
Originally Posted by FellMonster
Actually Borrowdale was not pre-entry in 2007 and there was no limit. But hey! Why bother with facts when one has opinions?
Scoffer is one of the greatest guys in fellrunning and I was chatting to him only yesterday about Borrowdale and as far as I am concerned Borrowdale is his race and he can do what he likes with it...and best of all he never reads the Forum!
Sensible lad that Scoffer!
I reckon to get 460 racing from an entry limit of 500 is nigh on perfect.
Sounds like the scramble up Bessy Boot is the same mad melee as always. It does make one feel a bit like a vandal but it seems to recover OK.
One thing thats changed since my lake racing days is the advent of these gel sachets...sounds like an unavoidable excuse for the litter lout runners to do their thing.:mad: Personally, I'd ban 'em. Whats wrong with jelly babies?? Virtually the same but with a bit more gelatin thats all.