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Re: How many people run barefo
I think barefoot or minimal running (I don't think it matters which tbh) is good to include in your training if it suits you or if you like it, simply because it's a different form of running and does potentially offer some benefits. However, lots of people (especially on here) already run and train in fairly minimal shoes as most fell shoes are pretty low and not very cushioned so are probably already getting similar benefits.
I don't dismiss it completely, but I'm not as convinced as I once was that it's a cure for injury. I think the golden rule for avoiding injury is increasing the amount of mileage you run without overdoing it. You're not as likely to suffer an overuse injury imho if you gradually build up the miles, as your body will adapt and become better conditioned to the stresses you're putting it through. You can't really do anything about pulled muscles, strains or sprains though, nothing will completely get rid of the risk for those.
I don't do much barefoot anymore because I used to do it on my treadmill which has been out of action for some time, and I only occasionally run in my VFF's as well. I find recovery runs are quite good in them because they slow your pace a little and stress the muscles in a different way asd well as helping toughen your feet up a bit. I don't really do any other sort of training in them these days though.
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Re: How many people run barefo
can anyone explain to me the difference between these new fangled minimalist shoes and a pair of Walsh PBs? Walshs look pretty darn minimal to me already!
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Re: How many people run barefo
Most of the injuries I've had have been from stubbing my toes or falling over, which is why I wondered if anyone had any comments about the grip on minimalist shoes, the Merrells, New Balance and so on. They all market themselves as 'trail' shoes, but that could mean anything, really. I'm not sure it would cover rocky moorland paths, bog, and so on.
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Re: How many people run barefo
This is weird - I made the last post on friday, it's now Sunday, and it's showing in my 'latest posts' box...
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Re: How many people run barefo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plodding bear
Most of the injuries I've had have been from stubbing my toes or falling over, which is why I wondered if anyone had any comments about the grip on minimalist shoes, the Merrells, New Balance and so on. They all market themselves as 'trail' shoes, but that could mean anything, really. I'm not sure it would cover rocky moorland paths, bog, and so on.
I've got the Merrells and the VB neos. Both are good on footpaths and tracks as long as they aren't too muddy and ok for fairly easy dry fell running.
The Merrells are made with a sticky rubber sole which is still hard wearing but lacks any significant studs on the sole. The Merrels and Neos win on comfort and are easy to run in however their grip is rubbish compared fell shoes like to my Walshes or X-talons. Better to keep them for trails which is what they were meant for and use something else on the fells.
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Re: How many people run barefo
Ta for that. I like the idea of being a midfoot striker, which seems to be the point of running barefoot - it encourages you to do it naturally. Just watch a video of Anton Krupicka or someone trail running; he seems to just float along without any apparent effort.
I think those who criticise 'barefooting' are missing the point a bit when they criticise minimalist shoes, they are just a means of protecting the feet it seems to me, and easing the transition from running in 'platforms' to running with flat feet.
If only I could afford a pair!
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Re: How many people run barefo
i agree plodding bear its all about the form of your running which gets naturally encouraged by running bare foot and people forget this point and assume as soon as you protect your soles its goes to pot. i made the transition to a midfoot strike this year which took me around two months but has made a huge improvement on my bad back. if you want minimalist footwear without the price, buy racing flats instead my ascics cost 40 quid are awesome on road and innov 8 for the fells.
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Re: How many people run barefo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plodding bear
If only I could afford a pair!
In Barefoot Ken Bob Saxtons new book he cites a guy who takes Injinji socks (those with individual toes) and paints Plasti Dip on the bottom (while wearing them - to get the correcft shape). I haven't tried it yet but they're cheap, minimal, protective and recoatable.
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Re: How many people run barefo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nigel
.....they're cheap, minimal, protective and recoatable.
and completely crap for running in the hills :) ;)
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Re: How many people run barefo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plodding bear
Most of the injuries I've had have been from stubbing my toes or falling over, which is why I wondered if anyone had any comments about the grip on minimalist shoes, the Merrells, New Balance and so on. They all market themselves as 'trail' shoes, but that could mean anything, really. I'm not sure it would cover rocky moorland paths, bog, and so on.
I've got the NB Trail Minimus, which is the shoe that Krupicka had design input on. In terms of grip, they are brilliant. I've had them on tarmac, trails, mud, rock, moorland all of which both dry and wet and all of which at a good pace and I didn't have any slipping issues at all.
I DID however have issues with badly blistering toes and mashed up legs. At first I thought these were simply not the shoes for me (They're for sale on here somewhere) but a fortnight on from a fairly disastrous 17 miles (well, the first eight miles were brilliant, then I started to blister) I'm now thinking that I jumped in at the deep end a bit and should have integrated them into my weekly routine gradually rather than haring up over the first fells I could as soon as I strapped them on. Oh, and I didn't wear socks either, which in retrospect was really dumb. Having done some more research, it takes some adjustment to successfully get into 'minimalist' running, and that includes just toughening the undersides of the feet before you even get onto the biomechanics side of things!
As no one has shown any interest in buying the shoes (sob sob) I think I'm now going to gently introduce them into my weekly routine, maybe a seven/eight mile steep trail run once a week and any recovery sessions I might do.
Well, I will do once I've got over this damn food poisoning anyway...
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Re: How many people run barefo
Cheers Simgreen, nice to hear that about the grip as I was thinking about getting these shoes in maybe a month or two. Where on your foot did you get a blister? I've started doing some short runs in an old pair of flat, thin water shoes I've had sat in a cupboard for a while, and so far a lack of grip hasn't been a problem on rocks and grass, although I haven't had them on in full-on mud and bog yet! I've also started running barefoot, just 7-10 minutes after my normal run, and I must say, it feels quite liberating. It's certainly easier to get the technique right in bare feet which I think is the point of doing it; running on smooth tarmac or grass is ok in bare feet, but the bit of gravelly track I tried... well, let's just say I won't be trying THAT again for a bit!
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Re: How many people run barefo
I use the Nike Free 3.0 for long distance road running at the moment and find them quite comfortable. Am looking at getting a minimalistic trail shoe for long distances (half marathon and above) which will be okay for running on small sections of road as well. I wear New Balance 840 trail shoes at the moment but I find my feet suffering after 8/9 miles. Any suggestions?
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Re: How many people run barefo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
simgreen78
I've got the NB Trail Minimus, which is the shoe that Krupicka had design input on. In terms of grip, they are brilliant. I've had them on tarmac, trails, mud, rock, moorland all of which both dry and wet and all of which at a good pace and I didn't have any slipping issues at all.
I am waiting for the newer model the Minimus Trail Zero that should be avalaible next Spring. They should be avalaible in larger width (as is possible with mt 10 now as well). :thumbup: They saw what Anton did with his mt 10 and they redesigned it. I had the opportunity to test the mt 10 for a couple of days thanks to the kindness of a guy from New Balance. Those with Inov-8 BareGrips are the new shoes that providing me lotta fun this year.
If you want to see what will be my thoughts after the first sessions of testing follow me on my DailyMile profile: http://www.dailymile.com/people/bfluc
Quote:
Originally Posted by
simgreen78
I DID however have issues with badly blistering toes and mashed up legs. [...] Oh, and I didn't wear socks either, which in retrospect was really dumb. Having done some more research, it takes some adjustment to successfully get into 'minimalist' running, and that includes just toughening the undersides of the feet before you even get onto the biomechanics side of things!
As no one has shown any interest in buying the shoes (sob sob) [...]
One important point too many folks are missing is what Ken Bob Saxton have said and written for years e.g. you better first go "full monty" (run barefoot) in order to learn how to have the proper running form before going with minimalist shoes. Believe me if your running form isn't honed it will not go well barefoot. That's what I did because I wanted to see if I could race a 10 km race. I even managed to race a half marathon. In order to achieve that I had to forget times for almost a year (I know it's easy when you're a slow Clydesdale runner like me) because the secret for success is building up slowly and gradually. I did my 2nd personal best10 km race barefoot last year and I would probably have done better this year if cancer did not stopped me from running.
Regarding those doubting that someone can go 100% barefoot asked Ken Bob Saxton if it is possible. Of course for someone like me living in Crazy Canucks Land it's another story. For your information I did most of my winter running outdoor since December 2009 till 2011 end of Spring with Mizuno Wave Universe and my running mates have hard time following me in icy conditions. ;)
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Re: How many people run barefo
The main reason for barefoot running seems to be that you end up running the way we were meant to run and so you reduce the risk of injury and possibly run quicker too. It seems like a no-brainer. The big problem is that so many of us are already conditioned into using footwear that has a thick cushioned sole - and not just for running. I spend only a small percentage of my time running (sadly) and so just going barefoot when I'm running isn't going to help me that much.
To benefit from the barefoot approach you need to go barefoot (or use minimally-soled shoes) all the time. That doesn't just mean buying a new pair of Vibram Five Fingers or whatever, but replacing your whole cupboard of footwear. Few of us have that sort of cash or the appetite for that much shoe shopping but what you can do is avoid buying thick-soled footwear whenever you get new shoes - whatever you are going to use them for. Over a period of time you could make the transition to thin soles and that would give your body plenty of time to adapt.
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Re: How many people run barefo
After about 3 months of total barefoot walking only (to slowly build up), I am just starting to add jogging. I will say it is totally different from running with shoes, both walking and running actions, so I think a very slow transition is essential to avoid injury. I am doing it to try and strengthen my calves and achilles - which have been a disaster area for years :thunbdown:. Also interested to see where it leads me and what is possible given time to harden up, but already I see there is far more that will prove impossible to do fully barefoot. Unfortunately I'm not prepared to spend big money on minimal footwear (just to try it out), but have just found these Hauraches which I shall be ordering shortly and see how they go: http://www.invisibleshoe.com/store/
Far more like what I had in mind and they should help over those big rough stoney tracks ;).
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Re: How many people run barefo
Surely you all just continuously nail your feet on rocks, tree roots and every other form of uncomfortable obsticle?
I cant even avoid hurting myself WITH shoes on!
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Re: How many people run barefo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Al Fowler
Surely you all just continuously nail your feet on rocks, tree roots and every other form of uncomfortable obsticle?
I cant even avoid hurting myself WITH shoes on!
You know the old saying "No sense, no feeling" seems to work fine for me :o.
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Re: How many people run barefo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
plodding bear
I wondered if anyone had any comments about the grip on minimalist shoes, the Merrells, New Balance and so on. They all market themselves as 'trail' shoes, but that could mean anything, really. I'm not sure it would cover rocky moorland paths, bog, and so on.
I got the NB minimus trail, PB. They're the best shoes I've ever worn...except when it gets muddy :o( Iknow someone else here thinks they're fine on all surfaces, but maybe I'm doing something wrong (more than possible) I find them hopeless/dangerous on slippy slopes and am hoping desperately that NB will bring out a sole suitable for fell rather than trail. Even my tamest local trail loop is beyond them at this time of year. Do however, find them pretty good on road!
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Re: How many people run barefo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
simgreen78
I've got the NB Trail Minimus, which is the shoe that Krupicka had design input on. In terms of grip, they are brilliant. I've had them on tarmac, trails, mud, rock, moorland all of which both dry and wet and all of which at a good pace and I didn't have any slipping issues at all.
...
I'm really impressed, simgreen78. I can't get away with my mimimus on anything with even the merest hint of mud...do you think this is a technique issue? I dont' think my pace is what you'd call 'good' - do you sort of float over the ground? Am I hitting it too hard? They're ok on wet rock for example, but don't seem to dig in enough on a loose surface...am thinking this might be me, not the shoes....
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Re: How many people run barefo
daisy when using minimalist shoes try to be soft over the ground, almost try to glide(as if you were really barefoot). A good thing to remember is why take one step when you can take three. a short gentle stride is essential. if you concentrate on foot placement first and then build up the speed it will greatly increase your performance and make it easier for you not to slip and slide around.
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Re: How many people run barefo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fellrunnerreuben
daisy when using minimalist shoes try to be soft over the ground, almost try to glide(as if you were really barefoot). A good thing to remember is why take one step when you can take three. a short gentle stride is essential. if you concentrate on foot placement first and then build up the speed it will greatly increase your performance and make it easier for you not to slip and slide around.
Thanks for that, FRR - I'm a forefoot striker and have got my cadence at 180 spm - if I take any smaller steps I'll trip over me own feet! But I take on what you're saying about practising #the float# ... think a big part of my problem lies in downhilling, which is where I've had the most probs on the minimus...no matter how many times I repeat 'relax, relax, relax' I know that I'm more tense going down than up and this tension has got to be interfering with the traction.
MY respect for the shoes has gone up big time now I realise they can actually help guide me to a better technique. Awesome value for money!
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Re: How many people run barefo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
daisy
I'm really impressed, simgreen78. I can't get away with my mimimus on anything with even the merest hint of mud...do you think this is a technique issue? I dont' think my pace is what you'd call 'good' - do you sort of float over the ground? Am I hitting it too hard? They're ok on wet rock for example, but don't seem to dig in enough on a loose surface...am thinking this might be me, not the shoes....
Depends what you mean by a loose surface Daisy. I've run mine up the steep valley where I live and had zero issues on the terrain I mentioned before, including mud, by which I'm meaning a couple of centimetres at most. But would I run them through boggy conditions? No. I find the Vibram sole unit works brilliantly on rock, even if wet, but I live in an area where the exposed rock is predominantly gritstone. I've never knowingly run them over Limestone for example, which I always think has more of a slippiness to it. Whereabouts are you running?
Now that we are in late October the Minimus Trails are getting less of an airing as I switch to something a bit more appropriate for the conditions. Doing most of my running in Roclite 295s at the moment, and I think the next purchase will be 285s which have a bit less cushioning than the 295s.
To give you a rough idea, my technique has altered significantly and for the better over the last few months, partly by shifting to more minimal shoes and partly by necessity as I'm recovering from injury. In both regards I'm building a stronger core and back, and when running my stride length seems to have shortened, my posture is far more upright, I have that floating feeling on descents and I feel much more efficient on the climbs. This is yet to translate into quicker times but I'm still not able to run a 'full' week yet, which for me is around the 50 mile mark, I'm hovering around 30. But I don't think the differences you describe in your Minimus experiences are necessarily a technique issue, probably just variations in the terrain we're talking about.
Still wouldn't lose the shoes entirely though. There is a guy that runs to work every day that I see from my car as I commute, and he does it barefoot. This is through the middle of Sheffield City Centre. The pain etched into his face is enough of a deterrent ;)
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Re: How many people run barefo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
simgreen78
Depends what you mean by a loose surface Daisy. ...Whereabouts are you running?
I run in West (spelt WET) Cumbria. Gritstone is lovely and I can see how the Minimus would feel really secure on this, but the predominant surface round here at the moment is 'clarty' - like knee-deep clarty! I'm using the Roclites too - lovely shoe for my mixed trail/fell runs (but have you tried the F-lite 190? on fell its awesome - zero difference twixt toe and heel too - and super-sticky rubber; I save it for the really rough stuff.)
Have no intention of losing the shoes (except by accident in the clart like on Sunday when I had to fish out me Roclite from 10inches of gunk, then find stream to empty it of mud in order to get me foot back in it - oh the joys of off-road runnin!) but, like you (by the sounds of it) have really got a lot out of reducing the amount of shoe I'm wearing.
I'm doing about the same mileage as you too at the moment. Am terrified of 'overdoing it' (which seems to have really unpleasnat and longterm consequences at the moment) but am sneaking up the miles week by week.
I'd love to think you're right about the difference in minumus experience lying in the terrain rather than technique but reckon it's prob. a combination of both... Iknow I've got the technique right when I can't hear myself run on hard trail...trouble with the health issue is that not only am I off my feet for months at a time I more or less have to start learning to run again (like a stroke victim - which is currently one possiblity!!) too. The move from gallumphing elephant to lightfooted mountain goat doesn't come easy!
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Re: How many people run barefo
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Re: How many people run barefo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr H Tool
And you can get them from Pete Bland Sports!
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Re: How many people run barefo
I saw these in Joe Browns in llanberis last Sunday. The most awful thing I can think of. I can't believe people would buy them.
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Re: How many people run barefo
They are utterly bizarre, I'm amazed that you can run off road in these without destroying your ankles. Although, it looks like they are super soft so maybe that's why, they must mold to the terrain so much that you don't go over as easily as you would think. I'd like to try some for a laugh, but there's no way on this earth I would ever buy them
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Re: How many people run barefo
I went from X talons to Neo Barefoot Trail shoes a few months ago. It took a month to adapt and learn the technique....sore calves for a while. Some sharp gravel paths are still a pain but on the whole I find that they remind you to keep your form and technique as good as possible.
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Re: How many people run barefo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rob Furness
They are utterly bizarre, I'm amazed that you can run off road in these without destroying your ankles. Although, it looks like they are super soft so maybe that's why, they must mold to the terrain so much that you don't go over as easily as you would think. I'd like to try some for a laugh, but there's no way on this earth I would ever buy them
Not soft. Totally ungiving. Just a great big solid lump on the end of your foot. I only know this because they were sitting there among the Inov8s and Salomon etc and I couldn't help but examine. Surely nobody would buy them.
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Re: How many people run barefo
I done 20 miles (out and back along the sea front on the Wirral) in a pair of Inov8 Bare-X 180 Running Shoes on Saturday morning between 06:30 and 10am. Neary 10 minute miles. It was a bloddy hot moring and I was starting to get pretty bored with it on the return leg but still it was a slow time. I have seen that before I know I am just not as fast in the minimilist shoes. There was no issue with the shoes as I was able to keep the forefoot running up the entire time and the legs are no more tired than I would expect.
I know generally what the forefront running technique is and I try to run correctly. Would it just be just a case of I am not doing enough miles in them as I only run on the roads when in flat land and I have no choice.
