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Really? If you read something other than your far right propaganda, you'd quickly see the real figures:Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...65e85b49_b.jpg
https://english.news.cn/20240204/e9a...47c84ba/c.html
Real figures? Hmmmm.
Chinese State media? And you have the temerity to criticise what you perceive to be my news sources?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Is that all you have?
There are over 100 hostages in Gaza - held for 4 months.
What would you have done if your wife or daughter was one of them, knowing what they are capable of?
They cut open a pregant woman on Oct 7th, took out her unborn child, and as she passed out with the pain, slapped her to bring her round each time so she was forced to witness what they did.
There's war and there's barbarism.
The figures are consistent with others, so there are now 27365 + 1200 reasons why anyone with any genuine religious belief, or even the smallest amount of compassion, has been calling for a permanent ceasefire for months.Quote:
Originally Posted by molehill
I could say that I deliberately chose a Chinese news source as they are a neutral country, not supplying weapons to either side, and not known to take a great interest in religion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
I actually chose it as I knew you'd reject it without researching it, because you're not interested in the facts if they don't agree with your opinions. Had you done a minute of research, you'd have quickly found the Wikipedia entry below
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...5d4e0137_c.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casual...80%93Hamas_war
The figures are a bit lower because they are up to the 30th January, and Oxfam have said the Israeli military are killing 250 Palestinians a day - the highest daily death toll of any major conflict in the 21st century.
https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-relea...conflict-oxfam
Anyone with any genuine religious belief would wonder why one religious groups stated aim is to wipe out the state of Israel and every Jew who lives there, because they don’t like that religious group.
A ceasefire is easy, Hamas return all the hostages, disband as a terrorist group, fill the tunnels in, agree to live peacefully next door to Israel and stop launching rockets over the fence every day.
There will be an imbalance in numbers - that's war. The rules of war do not dictate that you can only inflict an equal number of casualties on your opponent as they inflict on you.
My solution - I might have posted previously - to invite the Arab League to take charge of security in the West Bank and Gaza and try and build confidence with a view to having a Palestinian State in the future.
I think there is a degree of trust between Israel, The UAE, Kuwait, Saudi.... where they would accept such an initiative, I just wonder how much the Arab League nations would really want to be bothered as I sense they are losing patience.
It has been tried before as the Arab League were involved 50 years ago in the Lebanese War, trying to sort out the problem largely caused by the Palestinians.
Back in the 1960s Jordan's King Hussein gave sanctuary to the Palestinians.
In the 70s he evicted them as they tried to overthrow him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September
Just have a look at the list on the right of "belligerents"
Several Palestinian factions + Iranian factions + Syria but against Jordan. Looks familiar - just swap Israel for Jordan.
They took hostages, including foreign nationals, we also had Munich.
When they got kicked out they were given refuge in Lebanon - a mixed country with a MAJORITY Christian contingent and a number of Jews as well.
The Palestinians kicked off there again, firstly targeting Jews and Christians and then starting a civil war, which turned Beirut from a cosmopolitan playground of the rich and famous to a lawless hell hole.
Despite progress towards a peaceful solution led by UN and Arab League, where the various factions disbanded, Iranian funded Hezbollah didn't.
Kuwait - last time I looked a Muslim country - evicted 10s of 1000s of Palestinians after the 1st Gulf War because Arafat aligned with Saddam.
I could go on - Egypt for example were Nasser tried to persuade Arafat as far back as the 60s to accept a two state solution and the friction caused by Palestinian links to the Muslim Brotherhood - hence Egypt are passive and won't open the border.
So you want to pick on Israel - even the Arab nations have huge issues with the Palestinian people and leadership because they are violent agitators.
They have a track record and history of terrorism, hostage taking and bad-faith negotiating.
You keep posting your opinions, with a solitary link to a conflict of 53.5 years ago, and I'll keep posting the reported facts. Then those people with any intelligence can make up their own mindsQuote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Marco "It's a waste of time talking to you. You don't read my comments, you won't answer a simple question I've asked three times, and you throw cheap insults and slurs at me"
That was on another thread. You seem to be guilty of what you attribute to me - again.
"You keep posting opinions"
I have posted some facts above.
1. The Palestinians staged a coup in Jordan.
2. The Palestinians moved on to destabalise Lebanon.
3. The Palestinians have a track record of violence, terrorism and hostage taking.
4. The Palestinians have caused problems in other Muslim countries, with other Muslims.
5. I could have posted other links and still can if you like, but I don't think these FACTS are in dispute.
I take such facts and in conjunctin with other facts and views I form opinions.
Maybe look at #50 on this thread from 2014?
I'm not taking sides, not until October 7th because what happened then crossed a line for me. Maybe it didn't for others.
In 1992, Denmark extended a warm welcome to 321 Palestinian refugees, who initially sought (alleged a need for)refuge from Lebanon. However, by 2019, it was revealed that 64% of them had been convicted of a crime, and even more distressing was the fact that 34% of their children had also been convicted of a crime.
Source: Danish Ministry for Immigration and Integration
The Background
Between 1990 and 1992 Palestinians traveled from Lebanon to Denmark seeking asylum for a claim that they were persecuted in Lebanon. However, a tightening of case law in Directorate of Foreigners in Denmark decided that the 321 Palestinians were not persecuted in Lebanon, thereby rejecting their application for asylum.
Following the refusal, a group of 96 Palestinians chose to occupy Enghave Church and soon after between 7th. and September 8th 1991 also Blue Farm Church, where the parish priest invited them inside. The occupation of the church lasted for over five months. (The Church conspiring with illegal refugees to undermine the democratic laws of a country. Where have we heard that recently?).
Eventually, a group of hard-Left and what today we'd call woke organisations pushed through and turned the legislation around and the Palestinians were granted asylum. https://da.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pal%C3%A6stinenserloven
What happened next?
Immediately after the adoption into Denmark, many of the Palestinians chose to return to Lebanon to celebrate the residence permit in Denmark – despite claiming that they had been persecuted in Lebanon! It was further stated that 312 of the 321 allegedly persecuted Palestinians had traveled back and forth between Denmark and both Lebanon and Syria during 1990 and 1991, while they had applied for asylum in Denmark, among other things to get married! So no persecuted then as they alleged (i.e lied).
And then, how did the Palestinians repay the hospitality of the Danish people over the following years?
According to a Denish Government Minister:
” That the Palestinian Act of 1992 was a huge mistake, shows all subsequent experience with all clarity, ". "I warned against the special law back then. But naive politicians with the Social Democrats and the Radicals at the forefront were pleased to let these people stay in Denmark. We are dealing with them now with crime, insecurity and massive payments of social benefits. Absolutely not a good one for Denmark. After all, the same parties have the power now. So my clear expectation is that they will clean up the sins of their past."
https://piopio.dk/palaestinensere-er...g-forsoergelse
Given their history of teaching their children hatred, an inflated sense of entitlement, grievance, and envy, no wonder none of the other Islamic countries in the middle-east want to invite them to stay. It seems a mass of Palestinians neither make good neighbours or good guests.
This thread is called 'Israel and Gaza', yet you posted a link, (and the only form of verifiable support to what you've said recently), to a short-lived 1970 conflict that did not involve Israel, did not involve Hamas and wasn't in Gaza either. Consequently it has no relevance to this thread. If you want to discuss it further I suggest you start a 'Black September 1970' thread.
This is highly offensive as you are implying that all Palestinians are like that. Name a country country that hasn't had some form of terrorist activity in the last 53.5 years. Following your logic we should say that Catholics and Protestants have a track record of violence and terrorism, as they were killing each other in Northern Ireland less than 30 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
I think we should have a ceasefire on this thread.
It is getting very Oraclesque, which nearly put an end to the forum.
I've got a mate from Palestine. We were both fighting for the same gym at the time of my last fight.
We had a fight at a big music venue in Leamington Spa.... we were very much the "away" team and the home fighters had a big crowd.
We were told that our walk-out music could be nothing controversial, no bad language and definitely nothing political....
I walked out to a Drum & Bass remix of Smack My Bitch Up by Prodigy, which got me in a bit of trouble....
My mate walked out to a pro-Palestine, anti-America song, which contained an astonishing amount of foul language :D suffice to say the home crowd were pretty riled up when his fight started.... he got knocked down in the first 30secs and the crowd were baying for blood, but he got up and flying kicked the home guy and straight knocked him out :D
He was a tough guy.... we were at quite an "old school" gym and we would knock hell out of each other in sparring (which i must say i didn't really agree with)... he'd try and punch my lights out, and i'd kick away at his legs until he couldn't walk.... he used to hobble out of the gym barely able to walk, and never complained....
Tariq my man!
I reckon you hold the record for identifying offense on here Marco, and the point about that short-lived conflict is that it is perhaps part of one long, never ending conflict - and you miss that I didn't just identify one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I identified several - and I can find more sources if you like, but I do not believe they are in dispute.
Someone once said those who don't learn from the lessons of history are doomed to repeat it.
Historical events are important, at least that is what the Palestinian supporters tell us, but they have certain cut-offs they prefer to apply, perhaps because when you look at it in the round, the narratives they promote will fall apart.
So what do you think of my effort of a resolution Marco?
You clearly disagree with my assessment, but what of an Arab League security presence?
What would you like to see?
I would agree with Marco that attributing the various atrocities mentioned by WP to "The Palestinians" is offensive. It's like saying that "The British" massacred several hundred unarmed demonstrators in Amritsar in 1919: "The British", that's all of us.
WP refers to "historical events", and they are definitely at the root of all the present issues. Many thousands of Palestinian Arabs were forcibly removed from their homes (and many killed) in 1948. It's not entirely surprising that this has given rise to continuing extremist violence from some Palestinians, especially since there are extremists on the Israeli side who seem determined to provoke them.
I do think that WP's suggestion regarding the Arab League has some merit, but I can't imagine Netanyahu agreeing to it.
1919?Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonykay
1948?
careful Anthony.
just out of interest, were you offended by what I posted?
One of the more constructive comments on this thread. Whether it would work I don't know. I suspect it would take a more powerful/better armed force, such as a US-backed peacekeeping force, to make it work.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
I see no point in the current slaughter, it's just making things worse and making a resolution harder.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
If you look at all of the history for this area since World War 2 then neither side looks particularly good, and any neutral would point out that other countries have added to this too. In all honesty, this is far too complicated for me to offer a solution. The best that I can suggest is that a very powerful force goes into the whole area and re-looks at the boundaries and keeps the peace.
I was in Northern Ireland, and particularly Belfast, nearly 30 years ago and saw all sorts of scary things and a lot of hatred. Against all odds, they did find a lasting peace that didn't seem possible back then - so however difficult it is, it can be done
Well said Anthony.Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonykay
I have stopped posting on this thread as The amount of vitriol doled out, and the one sidedness by some contributors is bringing the forum down.
As Llani say's: lets stop this now.
I agree - you did come across as one sided.Quote:
Originally Posted by MattPo