Feet in the Clouds

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Originally Posted by GrahamB

Might be my final word or two:



O-RR is still in its first edition. It is a practical book and brings together a wide range of information-some of which will make you a better runner.

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That's what I'd disagree with. It may do, but most 'serious' runners will already have that information to hand. It's a great intro book, though.

Your point re FITC is understood, but I think you fail to understand other peoples view or somehow your view is more important.

A piece of literature like FITC is a piece of art, some will like it, some will love it, some will think it's OK. I'm not a big fan of the Mona Lisa, bit of a sour face if you ask me, but others seem to like it.

I think FITC was written for a range of audiences, from outdoors people,, hill walkers and fell runners, and road runners but also the wider general public. There is a genuine interest in the sport from joe Public, it is percieved as quite a mad and difficult sport which we all know really isn't the case. Racing on the flat is no easier than racing on the hills.

A text book like SRORR has a much smaller target audience and is just in such a different genre of book, which was why I was genuinely suprised to see it offered up as a comparison.

Of course of the 2 books, if any, ORR will be the one that provides an improvement, but I'd say that FITC was inspirational to me and played in my mind in my Paddy Buckley round, not wanting to go through what he did, but also avioding his pit falls.

I just feel ORR could have contained more technical information and removed some of the sections, possibly there's room for a further volume then for more experienced runners, developing the more techical aspects.

Do you have the original MNFR?

If not then definately worth a £5, not seen this one to compare, but will do and get back later this week.

FITC is a certian type of book and it's not fair really to compare. I happened to read it at just the right stage of my running, with a few years under my belt and looking at longer races and training for the BG. I actually read the bit about Borrowdale the night of the race in my tent in Keswick with a nice glass of red and blissfully aching legs. Grand!

I'm really confused by GrahamB's views on FITC; all that Richard Askwith has done is a Nick Hornby 'Fever Pitch' but for fell running instead of football spectating. More over the book has a sense of humour (that maybe GrahamB doesn't get or doesn't have ;))

right - well I said I was going to report back after I'd read FITC, so here I am...

...er... it was OK :o

that review in full:

Not very well written as a book.
Laying down some of the "old-time" history was a job well done, although the so-called "interviews" with the legendary figures were disappointingly thin/uninformative and, as such, seemed a lost opportunity.
Some of the individual passages read very well as journalistic pieces - you can imagine them in Sunday-supplement or in-flight magazines - and are very funny/entertaining.
However, as a book, it seemed rather contrived and messy - there didn't seem to be an overall "point" to it.
The "bitty" nature of it helps to make it a "page turner" though, and it's definitely worth borrowing a copy, and reading it once.

will this do...?

Seems to have generated a good deal of comment and some controversy this one.

Well, for what it's worth, and as an inexperienced runner of modest ability, I loved it. I read it when just starting to run (3 years ago) and it gave me an idea about what fell running was about. I found it a bloody good read even if I have to agree with much of what is said above.

I've just re-read FITC and once again enjoyed it thoroughly, although this time his fixation with the Bob Graham grated a bit more than last. To me its a shame that, in many ways, the book is structured around his BGR obsession rather than just running in the fells as a worthy obsession in itself.

Second guessing why some people are less keen on the book, I suppose its because they might be more interested in the best methods of fell racing (and prefer books geared to that and training that goes with it) rather than just the experience of fell running, regardless of whether you're racing or not.

Personally I'd have loved more of an emphasis on solo fell running just for fun, a little less on the elite end of racing, a bit more of his race commentaries (the Borrowdale and Ben Nevis write ups are terrific), a bit more on Joss Naylor but maybe less on the historic stuff (and the whole professional vs amateur thing) and the BGR. All round though its a great read and has probably contributed a lot to the widening interest in fell running; he mentions the low turn out for PPP in 2003 and ditto Ennerdale etc and felt that the long and hard races were in decline but I'm not sure that's now the case thankfully.

[QUOTE=Stolly;132427]Personally I'd have loved more of an emphasis on solo fell running just for fun, a little less on the elite end of racing[quote]

I suggest you read Stolly's running adventures.:)

See where you are coming from Stolly and sort of agree he missed out the joy of solo fell running, totally really, but he could only cover so much, but yes solo running in the fells is quite special.

Re his obsession with the BGR, I thought that came across well, it sorts of explained so well that it often is an obsession. A few do just run these things off little prep, but for many of us they are that years running. Lasy year my year was the PBR, hours recceing, it's your life, and I thought that came across well with the amount he talked about it. for many the BGR is quite an obsession. I was talking to a TV presenter this week who said despite never having ran in the hills until this week (I shadowed him around his first ever race as part of a TV show) he's got the idea of doing the BGR firmly planted in his mind because of FITC. It's great the affect FITC has had.

He's probably played a key part in raising the profile of the classic lakes races, but so did the creation of the series, when did that happen?

Anyway the Snowdonia longs are still quite under supported and are only just viable. A petty. The new Long in Snowdonia, Foel Fras only attracted 50 or so runners making a long race barely viable. Short races can get by with low numbers, the longs need enough runners to cover costs that are not cheap.

I think FITC was great. I wouldn't want to compare it with something else. But I liked his obsessional bits, it introduced the sport to lots of others who knew little and because of the way it was written my children, one a reluctant reader, have read chapters ( not necessarily in order) and spotted people they know or who have seen / met. It has also allowed them a perspective of how good some"old" people used to be. ( better not name names or chapters here) As they meet "new" to them people they reread or read another chapter. These kids are afterall the future of fell running, so keeping them interested is important.

Just thought i would give a younger perspective of FITC.
Im a 20 year old student, fairly active as a teenager, became very lazy as a student. My housemate is a comitted fell runner and lent me FITC over easter. Reading it inspired me to take up fell running, have been entering at least 1 race a week, am supporting a BG attempt next week, and as a result of gettin into running managed to pack in smoking.
Just thought i would share how FITC benefitted a young mans life:)

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Originally Posted by scouse_fellrunner

Just thought i would give a younger perspective of FITC.
Im a 20 year old student, fairly active as a teenager, became very lazy as a student. My housemate is a comitted fell runner and lent me FITC over easter. Reading it inspired me to take up fell running, have been entering at least 1 race a week, am supporting a BG attempt next week, and as a result of gettin into running managed to pack in smoking.
Just thought i would share how FITC benefitted a young mans life:)

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Well done, Liverpudlian lad, leave them fags behind, wish i could:rolleyes: , enjoy your running, enjoy the lakes, keep being inspired:cool:

I enjoyed the book a lot but didn't recognise some of the more sensational decriptions of the danger/hardships involved in races! At the risk of appearing mischevious I wonder where the author was running in wearing his Ben Nevis number for one of the photos in the book? I know he did the race, I was there, but I did notice a few discrepancies between the photo of him actually in the race and a second one wearing the same number and almost the same kit somewhere that I dont recognise as part of the course! Does this mean I cant believe everything I read anymore? No disrespect, I did enjoy the book and it would be nice to see some more out there.

Just bought this book!:D

I've been fell running since 1983 and on BG support duties since 1984. I bought and read this book when it first appeared in 2004. I thoroughly enjoyed it and identified with much of it. HOWEVER, I can see a negative aspect to a popular book that over publicises the ultra side of our sport to the masses. Last night, I supported the slower of our two Bowland contenders on the final Honister - Keswick leg, departing Honister at 21.33 in absolutely atrocious conditions. I had spent the previous 21 hours assisting at the road support points and had engaged in conversations with several other support crews. The point that I'm coming to is that there appear to be a good percentage of contenders with very little background in hill-going, who think that reading FITC is the only preparation required for an attempt. A typical example, was a portly middle-aged to elderly gent at Honister - very much home counties to judge by the accent - who was providing road support for his son. This gent was struggling to find his way between the road support points and was woefully clad for the job that he was doing in the prevailing conditions. His son had no nav skills himself and very limited experience of the Lakeland fells, as did his on hill supporters ( only one per leg ), and he was using walking poles. He had left the Moot Hall, travelling CW at 7.00 on Friday evening and it was now 8.15 Saturday evening. These people seem oblivious to the need for serving some sort of apprenticeship in hill-going before tackling something as demanding as a 24 hour round in the vagaries of the British weather. I know that we live in the age of instant coffee; but I sincerely hope that it does not take the death of a lost/injured/hypothermic contender of scant experience, before the wake-up call is heard and our wonderful sport has been blackened by the sensationalism of the tabloid gutter press. One of the other two supporters on our leg ( 100 BG support outings to his credit ) commented, " I bet that lad's write-up makes a really sad read."

During the course of the day, we had talked to 3 or 4 other support crews with similar stories to tell.

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Originally Posted by wheezing donkey

...I know that we live in the age of instant coffee; but I sincerely hope that it does not take the death of a lost/injured/hypothermic contender of scant experience, before the wake-up call is heard and our wonderful sport has been blackened by the sensationalism of the tabloid gutter press....

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there's only one person to blame forall this mid-summer madness ont'Lakeland fells and that's Bob Graham, God rest 'is soul. Just as Alfred Wainwright, God rest 'is sole as well, turned t'Lake District into Blackpool promenade.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by wheezing donkey

The point that I'm coming to is that there appear to be a good percentage of contenders with very little background in hill-going, who think that reading FITC is the only preparation required for an attempt.

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A worrying trend, but hard to see how FITC could be blamed for contributing to it, given that Askwith had 4 attempts and still only just got round despite a serious amount of recceing, training and planning. He seems to go out of his way to emphasize how hard the BG is (and having supported Leg 4 late pm Saturday I can't disagree ...)

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Originally Posted by wheezing donkey

I've been fell running since 1983 and on BG support duties since 1984. I bought and read this book when it first appeared in 2004. I thoroughly enjoyed it and identified with much of it. HOWEVER, I can see a negative aspect to a popular book that over publicises the ultra side of our sport to the masses. Last night, I supported the slower of our two Bowland contenders on the final Honister - Keswick leg, departing Honister at 21.33 in absolutely atrocious conditions. I had spent the previous 21 hours assisting at the road support points and had engaged in conversations with several other support crews. The point that I'm coming to is that there appear to be a good percentage of contenders with very little background in hill-going, who think that reading FITC is the only preparation required for an attempt. A typical example, was a portly middle-aged to elderly gent at Honister - very much home counties to judge by the accent - who was providing road support for his son. This gent was struggling to find his way between the road support points and was woefully clad for the job that he was doing in the prevailing conditions. His son had no nav skills himself and very limited experience of the Lakeland fells, as did his on hill supporters ( only one per leg ), and he was using walking poles. He had left the Moot Hall, travelling CW at 7.00 on Friday evening and it was now 8.15 Saturday evening. These people seem oblivious to the need for serving some sort of apprenticeship in hill-going before tackling something as demanding as a 24 hour round in the vagaries of the British weather. I know that we live in the age of instant coffee; but I sincerely hope that it does not take the death of a lost/injured/hypothermic contender of scant experience, before the wake-up call is heard and our wonderful sport has been blackened by the sensationalism of the tabloid gutter press. One of the other two supporters on our leg ( 100 BG support outings to his credit ) commented, " I bet that lad's write-up makes a really sad read."

During the course of the day, we had talked to 3 or 4 other support crews with similar stories to tell.

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Very valid points WD.
Conditions were grim enough on section 4 with Ian on Saturday, his last section in the dark must have been a nightmare.
The thought of inexperienced / unprepared / ill-equipped teams out in those conditions horrifies me. Fatalities waiting to happen.

Some valid points there WD. But I think they're points that relate not just to the BG but to the increasing popularity of fell running in general.

I too saw and heard of some of the ill-prepared support teams out at the weekend. I'm glad to say that our man had excellent experienced support on each leg, but especially on Legs 3 and 4 where it's really needed. He also had due respect for the mountains, dressed properly for the conditions and had been out doing plenty of training and BG support in the run-up to his attempt.

But your point regarding a potential death is very valid and, as I say, I don't think that's just a BG issue. I was told by a leg 3 pacer that some of the people in the Great Lakes Race were up on the Scafells in shorts and vests on Saturday and looking seriously cold. One wonders what conditions it would take for these people to put some additional clothing on?!? Additionally, I have to say that I am always surprised that at almost every fell race, there appears to be a hardcore who still don't carry full and proper kit. What do these people think would happen if they fell and injured themselves and were immobilised?

I'm not sure you can fully blame FITC, but it obviously has had some impact. In particular (being controversial here;)), I suspect there is a tendency amongst those who cross over from road racing, who don't have a background of time spent on the fells, to underestimate just how serious it can be up there at times.

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Originally Posted by wheezing donkey

I've been fell running since 1983 and on BG support duties since 1984. I bought and read this book when it first appeared in 2004. I thoroughly enjoyed it and identified with much of it. HOWEVER, I can see a negative aspect to a popular book that over publicises the ultra side of our sport to the masses. Last night, I supported the slower of our two Bowland contenders on the final Honister - Keswick leg, departing Honister at 21.33 in absolutely atrocious conditions. I had spent the previous 21 hours assisting at the road support points and had engaged in conversations with several other support crews. The point that I'm coming to is that there appear to be a good percentage of contenders with very little background in hill-going, who think that reading FITC is the only preparation required for an attempt. A typical example, was a portly middle-aged to elderly gent at Honister - very much home counties to judge by the accent - who was providing road support for his son. This gent was struggling to find his way between the road support points and was woefully clad for the job that he was doing in the prevailing conditions. His son had no nav skills himself and very limited experience of the Lakeland fells, as did his on hill supporters ( only one per leg ), and he was using walking poles. He had left the Moot Hall, travelling CW at 7.00 on Friday evening and it was now 8.15 Saturday evening. These people seem oblivious to the need for serving some sort of apprenticeship in hill-going before tackling something as demanding as a 24 hour round in the vagaries of the British weather. I know that we live in the age of instant coffee; but I sincerely hope that it does not take the death of a lost/injured/hypothermic contender of scant experience, before the wake-up call is heard and our wonderful sport has been blackened by the sensationalism of the tabloid gutter press. One of the other two supporters on our leg ( 100 BG support outings to his credit ) commented, " I bet that lad's write-up makes a really sad read."

During the course of the day, we had talked to 3 or 4 other support crews with similar stories to tell.

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Originally Posted by The Navigator

Very valid points WD.
Conditions were grim enough on section 4 with Ian on Saturday, his last section in the dark must have been a nightmare.
The thought of inexperienced / unprepared / ill-equipped teams out in those conditions horrifies me. Fatalities waiting to happen.

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There were numpties out on the fells before FITC and before Wainwright, I doubt that there is any great increase in their numbers. From memory, MRT statistics show a fairly constant number of call outs for all reasons over the last thirty years or so. Given the increase in numbers on the fells, this would indicate that there is now much better awareness of the risks.

The problem is: experience/nous/hill sense, call it what you will, only really comes about from having close calls and recognising them as such then learning from them. Of course the consequences of such near misses can be very serious.

My first attempt on the BG came to an end on Scafell when I recognised (about an hour too late really) that I was becoming hypothermic and needed to get off the hill ASAP. Eight hours later in the bath at home I was still cold. Experience or lucky? My second attempt came to an end on Helvellyn Lower Man in similar conditions to Saturday when we were being blown off our feet. Reckless for being out in such weather or being optimistic about the forecast? (About 6 hours later the weather had cleared out)

Many of my reccies were done in winter conditions, often alone - reckless? Well one recce on Skiddaw came to an abrupt end when having seen no-one on the hill I looked towards Great Calva and all I saw was a dark brooding pit with swirling snow and a biting wind. I simply turned round and went straight back to Keswick even though I was intending to do both legs 1 and 2 that day. Another recce (with three others - all experienced on the hill) around Wasdale in driving rain/sleet/snow and no-one else on the fells at all. We got back down to Wasdale and someone said "I wouldn't have done that on my own". The other three replied "neither would I" - reckless or sound judgement?

Having said all that, a BG attempt in dodgy weather is a serious undertaking and you need to know that the support is reliable and if things go wrong then all members of the party are capable of getting themselves and anyone injured off the fells.

Better get some work done.

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Originally Posted by Bob

There were numpties out on the fells before FITC and before Wainwright, I doubt that there is any great increase in their numbers. From memory, MRT statistics show a fairly constant number of call outs for all reasons over the last thirty years or so. Given the increase in numbers on the fells, this would indicate that there is now much better awareness of the risks.

The problem is: experience/nous/hill sense, call it what you will, only really comes about from having close calls and recognising them as such then learning from them. Of course the consequences of such near misses can be very serious.

My first attempt on the BG came to an end on Scafell when I recognised (about an hour too late really) that I was becoming hypothermic and needed to get off the hill ASAP. Eight hours later in the bath at home I was still cold. Experience or lucky? My second attempt came to an end on Helvellyn Lower Man in similar conditions to Saturday when we were being blown off our feet. Reckless for being out in such weather or being optimistic about the forecast? (About 6 hours later the weather had cleared out)

Many of my reccies were done in winter conditions, often alone - reckless? Well one recce on Skiddaw came to an abrupt end when having seen no-one on the hill I looked towards Great Calva and all I saw was a dark brooding pit with swirling snow and a biting wind. I simply turned round and went straight back to Keswick even though I was intending to do both legs 1 and 2 that day. Another recce (with three others - all experienced on the hill) around Wasdale in driving rain/sleet/snow and no-one else on the fells at all. We got back down to Wasdale and someone said "I wouldn't have done that on my own". The other three replied "neither would I" - reckless or sound judgement?

Having said all that, a BG attempt in dodgy weather is a serious undertaking and you need to know that the support is reliable and if things go wrong then all members of the party are capable of getting themselves and anyone injured off the fells.

Better get some work done.

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I think being out in maginal weather is a different prospect solo than in a group. All of our big recces for PB BG RR etc some one usually has a storm shelter and certainly on a night leg a supporter carries one and a LW sleeping bag.
Being able to get your self off is all well and good but if you have a more serious incident it isn't always possible how ever good you are.
It was my call to 'hop' off this week end as I knew how long it would take to get a team out.

Making a decision to turn back does come from experience and you some times have to cross that line to learn. Getting your self in and out of those experiences is all part of fun in life. Being unprepared however is another matter.

I bought this book a week or so ago intending to take it on holiday with me in a couple of weeks but i couldnt resist reading it and by the time my holiday comes i'll have finished it.
So although there are lists of fell running books on here, what other book should i get. It needs to be really good, not just a title you know plucked out of your head or of the lists on this forum.;):D

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

Being able to get your self off is all well and good but if you have a more serious incident it isn't always possible how ever good you are.

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Having broken my leg on the descent off The Old Man during the Coniston Fell Race last month I've had my eyes opened to this. Luckily for me the weather was good. Despite using my 'full body cover', and being given some extra kit by people helping me, I still got quite cold waiting for the MR team. Luckily there were people close by who were watching the race and could call MR immediately but the team still took about an hour and a half to get to me (and I wasn't too far away from the Walna Scar Road).
I have often run on my own in very bad conditions in some very remote areas and always felt confident. I have enough mountain experience to be OK and I always have been BUT as you mention, the problem comes when something major goes wrong. I was 'lucky' when I broke my leg! Read on and see why. It was a nice day; it was light; it was during a marshalled race; I wasn't in the middle of nowhere; there was mobile phone reception. So, if it was going to happen fell running it couldn't have been under more fortunate circumstances. What if none of these applied.....I dread to think.
I will no doubt find myself running in similar circumstances, I have no intention of stopping doing what I love most in the hills, but now there will be a voice at the back of my mind reminding me of how easy it is for things to go SERIOUSLY wrong!

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Originally Posted by Al Fowler

I bought this book a week or so ago intending to take it on holiday with me in a couple of weeks but i couldnt resist reading it and by the time my holiday comes i'll have finished it.
So although there are lists of fell running books on here, what other book should i get. It needs to be really good, not just a title you know plucked out of your head or of the lists on this forum.;):D

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I Bought a Mountain - Thomas Firbank
About him and his wife buying a farm - Dyffryn - on the slopes of the Glyders in the 1930's and the hardships that come with sheep farming.
A BRILLIANT book.:D

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Originally Posted by PlumBum

I Bought a Mountain - Thomas Firbank
About him and his wife buying a farm - Dyffryn - on the slopes of the Glyders in the 1930's and the hardships that come with sheep farming.
A BRILLIANT book.:D

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I read that years ago before I got into fell running, and keep thinking it would be good to read it again now.

I've never heard of the book or Thomas Firbank, but I've got it ordered after doing a bit of googling. (ok, ok, I'm avoiding work, its Friday already).


Fascinating stuff (warning - SPOILERS in this link, don't read if you don't want the ending of "mountain" spoiled). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Firbank


Has anyone read "I bought a star"? I think I'll order that too.

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Originally Posted by PlumBum

I Bought a Mountain - Thomas Firbank
About him and his wife buying a farm - Dyffryn - on the slopes of the Glyders in the 1930's and the hardships that come with sheep farming.
A BRILLIANT book.:D

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That is a great read, really makes you want to hit the Hills and live a rather feral lifestyle for a while.

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Originally Posted by RichK

I've never heard of the book or Thomas Firbank, but I've got it ordered after doing a bit of googling. (ok, ok, I'm avoiding work, its Friday already).


Fascinating stuff (warning - SPOILERS in this link, don't read if you don't want the ending of "mountain" spoiled). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Firbank


Has anyone read "I bought a star"? I think I'll order that too.

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Pal at work, who recommended Bought a Mountain has and says its good.

If you enjoyed "Feet in the Clouds", check out my new book, "Mud, Sweat and Tears": http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0054ZKYQQ

In July 2008, Moire O'Sullivan made a solo attempt on the Wicklow Round, (the Irish equivalent of the Bob Graham Round) a gruelling endurance run spanning a hundred kilometres over twenty six of Ireland’s remotest mountain peaks. After nearly twenty two hours she collapsed, two summits from the end. Battered and bruised, yet undeterred, she returned a year later to become the first person ever to complete the challenge.

"Mud, Sweat, and Tears” is the first book to tell one woman’s story about her passion for mountain running, a passion that has brought her to the heights of some of Ireland’s most impressive mountains and to the depths of her own human limitations.

And if you want to know what it's like, read a cracking review here: http://trailrunningnepal.org/2011/06...-tears-review/

Well, 'I bought a Mountain' is now on my wish list anyway.

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Originally Posted by Al Fowler

I bought this book a week or so ago intending to take it on holiday with me in a couple of weeks but i couldnt resist reading it and by the time my holiday comes i'll have finished it.
So although there are lists of fell running books on here, what other book should i get. It needs to be really good, not just a title you know plucked out of your head or of the lists on this forum.;):D

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Running High by Hugh Symonds - all the Scottish, English, Welsh & Irish 3000' summits in one continuous run. Awesome is an overused adjective but if you want an entirely appropriate use for it, this run and its story is it.

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Originally Posted by IWCharters

Running High by Hugh Symonds - all the Scottish, English, Welsh & Irish 3000' summits in one continuous run. Awesome is an overused adjective but if you want an entirely appropriate use for it, this run and its story is it.

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Seconded

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Originally Posted by L.F.F.

Well, 'I bought a Mountain' is now on my wish list anyway.

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Now gone from wish list to postman's bag on its way to me. Only about £2.80 second hand.

On the subject of good running books, I really enjoyed Matt Beardshall's book on his coast to coast run. Really good account of his training and his efforts on the run itself.

Great book, just at the Joss Naylor section now and feeling very inspired and very humbled.
The effort and conviction from the front runners is amazing, unfortunatly my comprehension of the greatness in achieving the success of a BGR was missed when my father completed it in the 80s along with a 3hr 3Ps but better late than never (sorry dad):o

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Originally Posted by IWCharters

Running High by Hugh Symonds - all the Scottish, English, Welsh & Irish 3000' summits in one continuous run. Awesome is an overused adjective but if you want an entirely appropriate use for it, this run and its story is it.

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Got that for xmas but ain't got round to reading it yet, on to do list!

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Originally Posted by martmason

...when my father completed it in the 80s along with a 3hr 3Ps but better late than never (sorry dad):o

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Good work that man

Cheers Rob, :thumbup:

Must be a call for a down to earth cross-country book - 'Feet In The Cowpats' perhaps?

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Originally Posted by IWCharters

Running High by Hugh Symonds - all the Scottish, English, Welsh & Irish 3000' summits in one continuous run. Awesome is an overused adjective but if you want an entirely appropriate use for it, this run and its story is it.

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I'm on with it now, cracking read:thumbup:

I've read FITC at least three times, find it quite inspiring to be honest. I don't enter many races, have only just joined a club, and usually run on my own with just my dog for company, but it strikes a chord with me. In fact, it's his descriptions of lakeland classics that have got me wanting to get more involved in the fell running thing and enter a few races. If he made a few bob out of it - good luck to him!