Slo Jo it is performance enhancing, thats why its(Salbutamol)on the banned list.Quote:
Originally Posted by SloJo
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Slo Jo it is performance enhancing, thats why its(Salbutamol)on the banned list.Quote:
Originally Posted by SloJo
I suppose I'm a bit hypersensitive for two reasons: one is no one is ever likely to ask me to submit myself to a drugs test because I have no talent and am a fat get who can't be bothered to train properly, never mind the asthma; the other is I feel quite defensive on behalf of Paula because, according to her autobiography, she was conceived in my home village. So hey! leave her out of it.
I understand guick.But if we want to have a fair sport, we can't make her immune from judgement.Not discussing her will just build resentment, from those who think she has an unfair advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guick Dotto
Got to go bed up early C.Leigh
Christopher Leigh's and Mud's opinions are just annoying, unless they want to say Paula is a cheat, which they won't. Cheating is the issue.
And I love both of them.
with regards to cycling
drug abuse always will go on , its just not possible to compete at that level of sport , the drug manufacturers are always one step ahead
from brandy through to cocaine , amphetimes, strychnine, cortecosteroids, epo, and who knows whats next
we will probably laugh at the way we trained and nourished ourselves when we look back to 2007 in fifty years time.
cycling has reached a point of crisis, has athletics im not so sure.
but one thing is certain ,to win races you need to go quicker and there will always be an amount of competitors who will look for that extra speed illegally, its human nature
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
you cannot in any way legally say she is cheating, she has a bloody doctors note , simple as , she can only be caught cheating if her level of that drug goes above the level set , many cyclists who are allowed subitimol have been caught this way
im sure paula is tested once every 20mins and has never failed a test , she is not doing anything wrong.
the debate i think is why there are so many asthmatics involved at high levels of running or cycling
and chris im not having a go at you :)
my whole problem with this debate is how can you allow a DRUG be it subitimol or even bloody nescafe vanilla latte and allow a level
it should either be banned or not
its like epo , for years the UCI and various cycling authorities have allowed cyclists to use EPO to a level
subutimol is similair
Thank you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
Well I won't say she's a cheat, 'cos she's playing by the rules. She's a bit boring though, which might be a worse sin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
I'm just musing about maybe the rules being wrong. You wait until I turn up at the annual FRA basketball match with a stepladder, arguing that I have a pre-existing medical problem with shortness of height.
I thought that would make you feel better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mud
Actually caffiene was on the WADA list of banned drugs until 2004.Quote:
Originally Posted by daz h
Alcohol is banned in some sports as set out on the WADA list.
They are - Aeronautic (FAI), Archery, (FITA, IPC), Automobile (FIA), Billiards (WCBS), Boules (IPC bowls,CMSB), Karate (WKF), Modern Pentathlon (UIPM), Motorcycling (FIM), Powerboating (UIM).
So in essence the die hard "no drugs" group want to see a complete ban on any potential performance enhancing drug be it whether the enhancing is the main or secondary side effect to a pre-existing medical condition which the medication is required (for arguments sake) Would this then not discriminate against those like Wheeze, Paula and several footballers who I know of, and under the discrimination act it cannot happen?
You will be calling diabetics next, because the insulin helps their metabolism.;)
All bona fide asthmatics I know (I know a lot of them) would not class having a potentially life saving drug like salbutamol as taking drugs, and if you start tarring Paula and others at the top level, then it will have to be carried right through sport to the grass roots. There are levels set and would say they are sensible levels. There are some drugs that are (quite rightly) Zero tolerance rated. Mistakes happen (the skier comes to mind)
I load myself with Caffeine, but am still waiting for its beneficial effects!!
To be included in the WADA prohibited list a drug must meet three criteria:
1. scientific evidence that it improves sports performance
2. scientific evidence that it poses a health risk
3. its use violates the spirit of the sport
Can't see that therapeutic doses of salbutamol would meet any of these.
Actually it only needs to meet any two of the above three criteria.Quote:
Originally Posted by SloJo
Drugs such as salbutamol that dilate the airways work in exactly the same way as the body's natural systems; they bind to their receptors whch effect the dilation. By working in this way the lmiting factor is not the quantity of drug that you take, but the number of receptors you have for the drug. Once the receptors are saturated, any more drug taken will have no effect on dilation of the airways.
I don't have asthma, so when I run I saturate my own receptors, if I had asthma and I took salbutamol I would only be restoring myself to the same level as athletes without asthma. I dont' have a problem with this, though I can see there is an arguament that sport is about pitting one body against another, so maybe disadvantages shouldn't be negated this way.
I don't know anything about salbutamols effect on the metabolism, but it is a misnomer to suggest that asthma medication increases dilation of the airways when compared with non-astmatics.
GM, the issue here is that Salbutamol (and other beta agonists) have an androgenic side effect i.e. they can, at a suitable dose, cause you to burn fat and build muscle bulk and strength. In other words, they act like steroids. Weightlifters and bodybuilders have known about this for ages and have abused Clenbutarol (a sister drug) to gain strength and muscle bulk/definition. But to get this effect you need to be injecting large doses of the stuff or seriously chugging down inhalers.
Sulbutamol has a much weaker androgenic effect and, at inhaler doses, no proven effect in vivo. Its a theoretical issue only (there's a paper about this in this montyhs British Journal of Sports Medicine). Thats why doctors can sign the TUE for athletes with proven airways reversability (the clinical criterion for bronchospasm)
So what track WRs do people think are drugs assisted?
Quote:
Originally Posted by A.G
AJ i cannot comment on track records but cycling wise i doubt whether the forum has enough pages to list all the drug assisted victoriesQuote:
Originally Posted by A.G
So do you reckon boardmans absolute hour record was drugs assisted?Quote:
Originally Posted by daz h
Quote:
Originally Posted by A.G
boardman never took drugs but there is even a story about that as well
he was a genious at the hour on a bike but why do you think he struggled at the tour ALWAYS.
he pleaded to his GAN manager and team mates to be taken off the bike, he always maintained he couldnt do these races , his body couldnt take it.
there was a reason for that
I think you're probably along the right lines,Quote:
Originally Posted by A.G
Women.
100 Florence Griffith-Joyner
200 Florence Griffith-Joyner
400 Marita Koch
800 Jarmila Kratochvílová
Although I'd throw in....
1500 Yunxia Qu
3000 Junxia Wang
Wouldn't it be quicker to say which ones aren't? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by A.G
one thing i forgot to mention AG was that in 1999 "one year after the festina scandal" boardman publically stated that the peloton had slowed on certain stages to a manageble level.Quote:
Originally Posted by A.G
now the story was boardman was given clearance after bone scans revealing signs of osteoporosis by the UCI to have hormone replacement therapy ( ie testosterone boosting by another way ) , however his application was then turned down the UCI backtracking saying he would have to quit cycling.
in 2000boardman revealed he would have had been healthier if he had taken drugs , he always maintained every time he rode the tour he was damaging his body.
the choice was his , he quit cycling the hour eventually gave him financial security.
i think at the time of around 1998 he did an interview saying that i he had chosen the drugs path he could have easily made £225,000 per season just doing the big tours but his conscience told him not to .
the festina riders and others now have to live with that but i suppose they made there money.
boardman once said after a stage in the tour
IF IT LOOKS TO GOOD TO BE TRUE IT PROBABLY IS :)
How about:Quote:
Originally Posted by dominion
10,000 Junxia Wang (29:31)
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=0yCt1BSPGoA
some good clean names in this lot
i thought David you would have a view on this subject like me pantani was one of your fav cyclists despite the drugs.
oh david mate notice the bike make ;)
Incredible, I can't believe they got up those mountains on those.Quote:
Originally Posted by daz h
That was my thoughts as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mud
Gravymuncher you wouldn't be restoring yourself to the same levels, because Salbutamol doesn't occur naturally in the body!Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravymuncher
In other words no one has Asthma because of a deficiency of Salbutamol.
Ag Marion Jones was subjected to lots of tests as well!Quote:
Originally Posted by A.G
Do you honestly believe that gabrisallasse and other Africans, can run a minute faster than the great Said Aouita over 10km, without chemical assistance.
There was no Epo when he was competing.Aouita was faster in terms of basic speed(46.9 for 400m), was as light and possessed great stamina.Additionally he was almost unbeatable.
If you don't believe what I'm saying(in regard to drugs), re-watch the 1500m final at the 2000 olympics.Before the games it was announced, that a test had been developed for EPO.This test could detect EPO use upto 5 days( approx) before, but beyond permitted levels(EPO occurs naturally in the body).
Athletes using this drug had to be very careful now.So much so that a runner who'd been running 3.26-3.27, and making it look easy, struggled to run 3.32 and finished 2nd.Some other runners struggled as well.
Try to get the tape, watch and then tell me what you think.
Nor do vitamins occur naturally in your body, but argubly they keep you heathly and able to train for longer without colds, flu, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
Paradoxically your body does produce anabolic steroids such as testosterone naturally.....
Why choose Said Aouita as an example? He wasn't a 10k runner.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
Okay, I admit to becoming a bit interested in this. I thought the Asthma issue was a bit periferal.
I don't know about the 2000 Olympic 1,500. Was that El Gorouge's tactical abomination against Ngeny or am I thinking of something else?
I don't think you can conclude from super fast running that drugs are involved. For example, in the days before computer games I knew kids of 17 who cound run 800 metres in two minutes on no training. Coe ran 1.42 something 29 years ago. Considering the motivation of the Africans and the number of them why should we be sceptical that they are one or two minutes quicker than say Ron Clarke or David Bedford 30 or 40 years ago?
Tom Buckner, an 8 and a little bit minute steeplchaser once told me that he had stayed in Kenya and had run their national cross country championship and had finished about 50th behind kids in barefeet and cut off jeans.
Some people are just fast. I am willing to be convinced but your asthma soapbox seems to miss the point.
I'd say 5/6s slower in a tactical Olympic final is fair enough when compared to an all out paced race in perfect conditions in the GP circuit.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
Auita was good because of his range, but was never exceptional at any one distance. I am 99% sure Geb is clean. He also has had consistency, and a long career, unlike most convicted drug cheats.
Dominion some diseases are caused by a deficiency of vitamins.Asthma is not caused by a deficiency of salbutamol.Quote:
Originally Posted by dominion
Clever switch of contexts though
Hello chris.David Bedford was tested for fitness at his peak.He recorded around 87ml per kg.Bedford was well know for his marathon workouts, sometimes as much as 200miles per week.Arthur Lydiard stated that this was the highest figure ever recorded, and was about the limit for oxygen uptake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
To run 1.15 faster than Bedford would require a huge increase in oxygen consumption, that cannot be achieved through training.It can only be achieved with drugs.
Now you might not like what I say about Paula Radcliffe, but you haven't presented an argument yet to refute My claims.
I was and remain a big David Bedford fan. He doesn't hold his club's record for 5,000m. Are you saying that if you run a minute or so faster you must be cheating?
Hello AG.What you're saying doesn't make sense.Aouita not exceptional at any one distance?1000m indoor WR,1500mWR,2000M WR,3000M WR indoors and out,2 miles WR,5000m WR as well as about the 4th or 5th fastest time over 10000m.That was all before the advent of EPO.Quote:
Originally Posted by A.G
As you said Paula wasn't cheating it didn't occur to me there was anargument to put.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
Hello Chris.Its my opinion that they are!Chris I'm not saying these things to get people going.I'm saying them because the sport is corrupt, and I would like something done about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
If I can convince people that I'm right, we might stop sanctioning athletes who are getting rich by cheating.
I'm not primarily concerned with the dangers of drugs in terms of health problems.I'm concerned with the contract issues.If an athlete agrees to take part, they have to abide by the rules.By competing with banned drugs, an athlete is in breach of contract, and is commiting fraud.
I spoke to a friend of mine last night who's Asthmatic.I asked him how his Asthma was diagnosed.He said "the doctor told me to blow down a tube." The doctor looked at the tube and said "you've got Asthma." My friend also stated, when he takes it his energy increases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
Now My friend runs but he doesn't compete,and I didn't prompt him.Infact I didn't tell him why I wanted to know until he told me of his doctors visit.
Radcliffe is probably the only person who knows if she's cheating or not(i.e genuinly needs her Ventolin).I'll tell you straight, it ought to be put a stop to at the top level.
So he had a big engine, but without data on his economy, it doesn't prove he was at the human limit of running.
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
So exceptional at 1500/5000 (olympic distances), but, not exceptional at 10,000 which is the distance in question.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
How about the point about El Gs 1500 times?