best fell runner ever ?

Let's be realistic chaps the top endurance athletes generally do not run fell races but I would agree that probably the best endurance athlete to run on the fells and only occasionally was Ron Hill - national cross country champion, olympic athlete at 10k track and marathon etc. John Wild was probably as good a fell athlete as you can find in the history books with his additional achievements on the country etc. The Blands, Naylors and Stuarts were legends for the fell enthusiast but not elsewhere. So far as international vests on the fells are concerned this is a recent development and as standards have dropped I hardly think any of the more recent crop could live with the best of the 70s and 80s.

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Originally Posted by longstreet

So far as international vests on the fells are concerned this is a recent development and as standards have dropped I hardly think any of the more recent crop could live with the best of the 70s and 80s.

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A good athlete is a good athlete no matter when he ran. Why try to detract for the current runners. You can only beat whats in the field not whats in the past.

Everyone who runs is a champ in there own right.

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Originally Posted by Stagger

A good athlete is a good athlete no matter when he ran. Why try to detract for the current runners. You can only beat whats in the field not whats in the past.

Everyone who runs is a champ in there own right.

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Well said

You are quite right - runners of today can only beat those in the field but half the problem with many of our young athletes is that they think doing just that is enough. They get their 'international vest' and that's it they've made it. As we saw yesterday at the World Cross there is much hard work over many years to be done before you reach the top. The Jeff Normans and Ron Hills of the past did that and more and those are the standards and that is the effort and time you have to put in. Some of the youngsters think they are committed and some of the seniors think they are the heroes of today on the fells until they really challenge themselves against the best on the road and the track - no hiding place there especially on the track and then they get found out. Alternatively they spend their lives on the fells because of that. No problem with that attitude if that's what they want but let's get it all in context and not get carried away.

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Originally Posted by longstreet

think they are the heroes of today on the fells until they really challenge themselves against the best on the road and the track - no hiding place there especially on the track and then they get found out. Alternatively they spend their lives on the fells because of that. No problem with that attitude if that's what they want but let's get it all in context and not get carried away.

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Can see where you're coming from Longstreet however when you say "the best on the road and the track" I hope you mean the best the WORLD can offer and NOT just the best in Britain, see my earlier post! I honestly believe the best fell runners of today are as good (at what they do...) as the best road and track runners in Britain; granted they couldn't run 10K in 28 minutes but neither could any 28 min 10K guy I know of compete with the best on the fells!

Sorry I always get on my proverbial soap box about this because too many so called 'proper athletes' look down on fell runners as lesser athletes just because it isn't on telly, isn't part of the Olympics, doesn't attract sponsorship etc etc. Let ME put it in context, top fell runners of today world class? Never. But national class ? When you look at how far standards have dropped on the roads then I do think so!

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Originally Posted by longstreet

half the problem with many of our young athletes is that they think doing just that is enough. They get their 'international vest' and that's it they've made it.

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Agree with you entirely there...:)

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Originally Posted by Stagger

A good athlete is a good athlete no matter when he ran. Why try to detract for the current runners. You can only beat whats in the field not whats in the past.

Everyone who runs is a champ in there own right.

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utter tripe

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Originally Posted by longstreet

You are quite right - runners of today can only beat those in the field but half the problem with many of our young athletes is that they think doing just that is enough. They get their 'international vest' and that's it they've made it. As we saw yesterday at the World Cross there is much hard work over many years to be done before you reach the top. The Jeff Normans and Ron Hills of the past did that and more and those are the standards and that is the effort and time you have to put in. Some of the youngsters think they are committed and some of the seniors think they are the heroes of today on the fells until they really challenge themselves against the best on the road and the track - no hiding place there especially on the track and then they get found out. Alternatively they spend their lives on the fells because of that. No problem with that attitude if that's what they want but let's get it all in context and not get carried away.

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But isnt that just it, they are the best on the fells, maybe they only run on the fells?

How about if the best road/track runners went on the fells, i reakon people like ian holmes would kick anyones ass.

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Originally Posted by Al Fowler

But isnt that just it, they are the best on the fells, maybe they only run on the fells?

How about if the best road/track runners went on the fells, i reakon people like ian holmes would kick anyones ass.

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absolutly right i think people like ian holmes and rob jebb and that lot would kick there arses

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Originally Posted by scott baistow 93

absolutly right i think people like ian holmes and rob jebb and that lot would kick there arses

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Us young'uns know best scott. ;)

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Originally Posted by TimW

I'm surprised that John Wild isn't more highly rated on this thread, he wasn't around for very long compared to the likes of Donnelly and Holmes but was pretty invincible at his best and has, I believe, ran Ben Nevis only ONE SECOND slower than Stuart. No one ever mentions that, and when you're talking seconds who is to say they finish the race in the same place every year? It finishes in a field next to no obvious landmark, do they get a tape measure out?!

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Do you know I'd forgotten about John Wild... ,but a point well made sir,he was indeed an excellent runner,but as you say not a prolific,but the mention of him certainly makes me remember that he was among the best at that time.....

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Originally Posted by TimW

I wonder if any of the aforementioned themselves are bothered about which one of them was the best?

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I don't think they would have competed so keenly if they weren't bothered....

It is unfair to assume that fellrunning is somehow a poor relation to road and track and the point has been sort of made earlier - fellrunning is a specialism and comparisons between track runners and fell runners are meaningless. It's like comparing the car that won the Dakar Rally with the one that won the Formula 1 title - a pointless comparison.

Is track&field more competitive? Yes, but that doesn't detract from the prowess of fellrunners within their sphere. The very fact that most mainstream athletes are SCARED of it must add to it's kudos anyway. :p

On the question of past masters verus today's I have to say that there was more competition at the front a few years back. When Andy Styan set the Langdale record of 1:55 and-a-bit there were (I think) three others under 1:56. When Gavin Bland ran 1:57 much more recently he thought he'd done the second fastest time until he was told that three others (including his uncle Billy) had gone faster the day the record was set.

A bit further down the field :o My times from the early 90s (which usually placed me in the 20s out of a field of 200ish at the time) would nowadays get me in the top half dozen in the same races. I am therefore sure that standards generally have fallen. BUT, does that make the very best fellrunners of today inferior to the very best of say 1990? I'm not so sure...

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Originally Posted by Al Fowler

Us young'uns know best scott. ;)

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to right :D

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Originally Posted by Toots

I don't think they would have competed so keenly if they weren't bothered....

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Yeah I didn't mean that, of course they were all highly competitive people who wanted to win. I just meant I'm sure Holmesy doesn't sit down musing over whether his achievements are better or worse than Kenny's or Billy's. He's probably too modest anyway, is happy to have been the best of his own era and would laugh at us lot talking about it to these lengths!

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Originally Posted by Fellhound

It is unfair to assume that fellrunning is somehow a poor relation to road and track and the point has been sort of made earlier - fellrunning is a specialism and comparisons between track runners and fell runners are meaningless. It's like comparing the car that won the Dakar Rally with the one that won the Formula 1 title - a pointless comparison.

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Yeah I come from a road/track background and can tell everyone for a fact that proper fell running is like learning a new trade, it may help to have road fitness but that alone does NOT directly translate to fell running prowess. People have wound me up in the past saying things like well, Holmsey's only ever made the top 50 of the National XC, therefore he can't be as good an athlete! That's a bit like saying a centre forward must be a better footballer than a defender because he scores more goals! Like you say comparisons are impossible.

As you also say, fell running can't be that soft an option if other runners are scared of it! What are they frightened of?

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Originally Posted by Fellhound

It is unfair to assume that fellrunning is somehow a poor relation to road and track and the point has been sort of made earlier - fellrunning is a specialism and comparisons between track runners and fell runners are meaningless. It's like comparing the car that won the Dakar Rally with the one that won the Formula 1 title - a pointless comparison.

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I come from a road/track background and can tell everyone for a fact that proper fell running is like learning a new trade, it may help to have road fitness but that alone does NOT directly translate to fell running prowess. People have wound me up in the past saying things like well, Holmsey's only ever made the top 50 of the National XC, therefore he can't be as good an athlete! That's a bit like saying a centre forward must be a better footballer than a defender because he scores more goals! Like you say comparisons are impossible.

As you also say, fell running can't be that soft an option if other runners are scared of it! What are they frightened of?

I don't think it's whether road / track runners are SCARED of it, they just aren't really aware of it? It is a niche sport with few races held outside Northern England, Wales and Scotland.

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Originally Posted by dominion

I don't think it's whether road / track runners are SCARED of it, they just aren't really aware of it? It is a niche sport with few races held outside Northern England, Wales and Scotland.

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Depends which club you belong to sometimes. In Birchfield Harriers it was always frowned on but in other West Midlands clubs (even) it seems to be positively encouraged as an option for distance runners.

Whenever I've visited Devon and ran on Exmoor I've thought to myself if only fell running cottoned on down here, you imagine the south to be fit for nothing more than a series of trail races but some of these hills aren't for the faint hearted! Like the Shropshire hills, many don't quite realise what the area has to offer until they have a Championship at somewhere like Callow or Long Mynd Valleys.

At the moment we are basically a northern sport (so far as England goes) so alright the 'English' is more like a Northern Championship if you want to compare it to other domestic distance running titles. No reason why that couldn't change though...

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Originally Posted by scott baistow 93

absolutly right i think people like ian holmes and rob jebb and that lot would kick there arses

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sorry guys but think you to are in dream world really to run 48 for 10 mile and 28 for 10km is really tough and needs alot of speed, i know jebbys strong but he's never been the fastest and although i think ian had better leg speed to beat some of the best today would still be very tough. Lets not forget kennys 10mile pb was 48.1x that was when he was training 100% for the thon and even on the fells i think he was faster with better natural speed than ian and jebby. One runner i would like to see do a season on the road/xc is simon bailey i think he would do some damage. We'll also see soon how Jethro Lennox one of the best on the fells stacks up in the london marathon.

Also its worth looking how those with sub 30 10km speed do in fell races, abit of research will show very well normally!

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Originally Posted by steadyeddy

sorry guys but think you to are in dream world really to run 48 for 10 mile and 28 for 10km is really tough and needs alot of speed, i know jebbys strong but he's never been the fastest and although i think ian had better leg speed to beat some of the best today would still be very tough. Lets not forget kennys 10mile pb was 48.1x that was when he was training 100% for the thon and even on the fells i think he was faster with better natural speed than ian and jebby. One runner i would like to see do a season on the road/xc is simon bailey i think he would do some damage. We'll also see soon how Jethro Lennox one of the best on the fells stacks up in the london marathon.

Also its worth looking how those with sub 30 10km speed do in fell races, abit of research will show very well normally!

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Well I am a 32min 10Km runner who has never broken into the top 30 in a championship fell race. So I guess I, as a point in case go against your argument. This could be an anomaly but I tend to agree with earlier posts on fell running being a different beast entirely.

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Originally Posted by steadyeddy

Also its worth looking how those with sub 30 10km speed do in fell races, abit of research will show very well normally!

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Give us an example then...

Before you say Andi Jones! One, he does pick his courses (not knocking the lad he has his priorities, but in terms of fell running that's what he does) and two, there ARE exceptions to every rule.

I could give examples of sub 30 boys who have run very poorly in fell races when they've tried, but I am not in the business of running other people down, as I'm sure you're not either.

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Originally Posted by Roy Scott

Well I am a 32min 10Km runner who has never broken into the top 30 in a championship fell race. So I guess I, as a point in case go against your argument. This could be an anomaly but I tend to agree with earlier posts on fell running being a different beast entirely.

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I once ran 31min for 10K then switched to the fells shortly afterwards. In my first four seasons of doing the championships I had only two top 30s. Boy was progress slow! In subsequent seasons however, I have been a consistent top 10 man but I dread to think what I'd run 10K in if I did one now!

I don't think they're listening to us Roy but never mind you keep plugging away with the fells and you'll come good cos' you got the right attitude; by not thinking a half decent 10K time somehow gives you a divine right to be beating people with lesser road pbs on the fells.

I'm not saying road speed doesn't help, a high aerobic capacity helps you run well in any distance event.

All fell runners have their strengths and weaknesses but real ones don't get fazed by courses they don't think they're so good on.

Question: What do you need to do to be a good fell runner? Train like you would for 'normal' running or spend lots of time in the mountains? Answer: BOTH! It aint an either or thing!

john brown
billy burns
martin cox
all the normans (jeff included)
ricky wilde
dave lewis
martin jones
nick swinburn

( i know these lot my race sparingly on the fells but when they do/did compete there never far from the front) John Brown showed in true fell races in the english champs, billy and martin both performed well on true fell races as younger athletes both focusing on mountain running, jeff norman was extremly good on even the toughest fell courses, and i my be wrong but didnt Andy finish second at kentmere once? martin jones and dave lewis once again may not have raced on the fells often but when they did they performed very well, dave was only just second in the rossendale hills race i think as a 19 year old to a certain John Wild(correct me if im wrong!). More recently Nick swinburn with his win at moel elieo beating the top guys last year. Also looking at the FRA relay results the Brownlees performed well. This is more....

Its worth noting i didnt just mean the roadies which try there hand at fell running, if we look at how some of the proper fell guys,
simon booth - not sure if he's gone sub 30 but has been close to 50 on the brampton carlise
Ricky lightfoot - again maybe not quite sub 30 but does very well on the xc often beating those capable of 30 min 10k
john heneghan - same as ricky but possibly faster?

I suppose what i mean is that a person with such speed can achieve well on all surfaces, i think speed is neglected by many fell runners as getting the strength is alwell and good but you'll only be able to do well on certain courses, where as those with the leg speed often perform far better alround.

just read your 2nd post tim and i think your last post is much closer to what i believe.

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Originally Posted by steadyeddy

just read your 2nd post tim and i think your last post is much closer to what i believe.

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Maybe we do sing off the hymn sheet after all then :)

I actually think this is a silly discussion-but Hey! What is the Forum for?

However a fact which may or may not be relevant is that someone called Ian Holmes was second in the Bradford 10K on 29.3.2009 in 31.30. The man who beat him (Willy Smith) was just 3 seconds ahead.

Of course Ian is really just a 43 year old fell runner.

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Originally Posted by steadyeddy

sorry guys but think you to are in dream world really to run 48 for 10 mile and 28 for 10km is really tough and needs alot of speed, i know jebbys strong but he's never been the fastest and although i think ian had better leg speed to beat some of the best today would still be very tough. Lets not forget kennys 10mile pb was 48.1x that was when he was training 100% for the thon and even on the fells i think he was faster with better natural speed than ian and jebby.

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I think you are probably right here steadyeddy.
looking at the records set by men in the 6 Lakes classics, Welsh 1000m, Snowdon, 3 peaks, Edale Skyline, Ben Nevis, only one has been broken this decade (Duddon 2007 Ian Holmes).

It’s interesting to note that 6 of the 11 records were set between 1977 and 1986, a period of time that seems to generally coincide with the best performances by British male distance runners on the road and track.
A noteable trend is the dominance of the names Bland and Stuart, and the number of records that have stood for 20+ years. I wonder how many people have got within ½ an hour of Billy Bland’s 1982 Bob Graham round record? I suspect not many.

For the women it appears to be a different story with some superb performances being registered this decade and a number of them more recently. Janet McIver’s impressive season last year winning the womens category in 5 of the 6 Lakes classics, taking 3 records (Duddon, Ennerdale and Wasdale jointly with Jackie Lee), as well as Fairfield horseshoe. You only need to take a brief look through the handbook to spot that a large number of womens records have been set in the last decade by a variety of different runners, i.e. Angela Mudge, Jackie Lee etc.
This also seems to coincide with the road/ track with the all time best performances at 10 000m, 10K road, Half marathon and marathon being set in the period 2002-2009 by Paula Radcliffe and the likes of Mara Yamuchi and Jo Pavey having registered times in the all time top 5 over these distances within this time frame.

My feeling is that British mens distance and fell running peaked in the 80’s and womens distance and fell running is probably better now than ever before.
But all things are cyclical and there are some good young fell runners around at the moment so who knows?

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Originally Posted by fellgazelle

I wonder how many people have got within ½ an hour of Billy Bland’s 1982 Bob Graham round record? I suspect not many.

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I can answer that.................................none.



None of the current top runners are interested in doing it as it would ruin their season.

No one has the time to recce it.

Its only cause Billy was a local.

No ones bothered.

I'm sure you can all think of more excuses.

Its a shame the running scared of Billy thread was lost ;)

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Originally Posted by Baggins

I can answer that.................................none.



None of the current top runners are interested in doing it as it would ruin their season.

No one has the time to recce it.

Its only cause Billy was a local.

No ones bothered.

I'm sure you can all think of more excuses.

Its a shame the running scared of Billy thread was lost ;)

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It all depends whether or not you think the BGR is a test of manhood or madness.

Maybe today's top fellrunners are more intelligent than Forum posters.

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Originally Posted by GrahamB

I actually think this is a silly discussion-but Hey! What is the Forum for?

However a fact which may or may not be relevant is that someone called Ian Holmes was second in the Bradford 10K on 29.3.2009 in 31.30. The man who beat him (Willy Smith) was just 3 seconds ahead.

Of course Ian is really just a 43 year old fell runner.

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I dont know what Ian's PB is for 10K but in 2001 he won the Lancaster & Morecambe 10K in 31.14

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Originally Posted by Richard Head

I dont know what Ian's PB is for 10K but in 2001 he won the Lancaster & Morecambe 10K in 31.14

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I don't re-read my old Profiles by habit but I refer to:

Colossus A Profile of Ian Holmes The Fellrunner Spring 2007 page 28

"...2001 he did a 10K road race.'I did 31'10" and it was very windy so I am sure I could run faster than that.' But he has never bothered to try."

2001 was of course F&M year which is why he and other Bingley fell runners were doing a 10K road race but it is indicative of Ian's staggering modesty that he did not bother to mention to me at the time I spoke with him that he actually won it.

Discussions like this can get silly but one thing we all need to remember, young athletes especially if standards are to return to what they were, is what constitutes 'top class'.

Take Dave Lewis as an example from one of the many recently given. Top class road and track runner (so far as Britain goes) but not on the fells. Before someone pipes up that he once won the uphill trial, well 2 years ago Ian Holmes won Duddon when it was a Championship, and long races in the lakes are said to be HIS WEAKNESS! That's what makes a top fell runner, like I said we all have weaknesses but it's being able to run all the different types of races on the calendar that counts, not picking and choosing which courses suit you.

Likewise, 30min for 10K and 50min for 10 miles whilst they are very good times, are not top class. Dave Lewis ran 61:17 for the Great North Run, during which he must have gone through 10 miles in 46 odd. If people achieve these sort of times (50min 10 miles) and think they've made it (as someone hinted at this before on this thread...) no wonder we're falling behind the rest of the world as a nation.

just on the subject of records, at least 3 quarters (approx 300 of roughly 400 in calendar) of male (and female) fell-race records have been set since 1995, which surely indicates that fell-running is in quite a healthy state compared to road/track running doesn't it?

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Originally Posted by DazTheSlug

just on the subject of records, at least 3 quarters (approx 300 of roughly 400 in calendar) of male (and female) fell-race records have been set since 1995, which surely indicates that fell-running is in quite a healthy state compared to road/track running doesn't it?

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Hmm.. be nice to think so Daz. However, if we took out of the calculation the new races since 1995 (which will obviously have records post that date), and then the ones with slightly different routes (which will have a new record post that date) I wonder what the figures would be like?

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Originally Posted by TimW

Before someone pipes up that he once won the uphill trial, well 2 years ago Ian Holmes won Duddon when it was a Championship, and long races in the lakes are said to be HIS WEAKNESS! That's what makes a top fell runner, like I said we all have weaknesses but it's being able to run all the different types of races on the calendar that counts, not picking and choosing which courses suit you.

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And we should not forget that this was done only seven days after winning Jura; not in a particularly fast time but it was blisteringly hot. He then bettered that time by three minutes odd last summer.

Since Rigby set his record, I think only he (Rigby), Jebby and Jethro have completed the course faster than Holmes.

Apologies for going slightly off-topic, but not bad for an old fart.

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Originally Posted by Duff

Hmm.. be nice to think so Daz. However, if we took out of the calculation the new races since 1995, and then the ones with slightly different routes (which will have a new record in the calendar) I wonder what proportion of the remainder would have records set since the mid nineties?

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Git, beat me to it!

But yes, not everything is as it seems.

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Originally Posted by fellgazelle

I think you are probably right here steadyeddy.
looking at the records set by men in the 6 Lakes classics, Welsh 1000m, Snowdon, 3 peaks, Edale Skyline, Ben Nevis, only one has been broken this decade (Duddon 2007 Ian Holmes)

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Although Holmesy is the Duddon record holder, those who ran in 2007 and 2008 ran a shorter course than the traditional route. Ian didn't break the existing record; he set a new one.

So the old, longer course record holder is still Billy Bland in a time for the longer course which was quicker than Ian's over the shorter course.

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Originally Posted by Tin Ribs

Apologies for going slightly off-topic, but not bad for an old fart.

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No need to apologise, for an old fart you nearly stayed on topic.:p

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Originally Posted by BGSec

Although Holmesy is the Duddon record holder, those who ran in 2007 and 2008 ran a shorter course than the traditional route. Ian didn't break the existing record; he set a new one.

So the old, longer course record holder is still Billy Bland in a time for the longer course which was quicker than Ian's over the shorter course.

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Morgan

The world needs anoraks like us!

Graham