Races in the Caingorms wouln't be covered by the FRA....
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Races in the Caingorms wouln't be covered by the FRA....
I can't see how I mentioned a Cairngorm race. The FRA do operate outside of England. We were invited to the course as Welsh based runners..Quote:
Originally Posted by dominion
Was that a quip... about kids losing their lives.. wow well done Dom.. a new low!
You just thought you could make a quick comment and try to look clever.. Look put some substance in, some argument, or just keep the snipes going.. its been the standard response from Graham and the Grump for 5 years so at least it is a consistent style of posting...
If I have to explain the significance of the Cairngorm disaster on leadership in the hills then really you just shouldn't get involved in such debates...
Google Cairngorms 1971.. have a read.. then understand the significance.. I'm genuinely amazed anyone in the outdoors doesn't know that the words 'cairngorm disaster' (its all you need in google) don't automatically refer to the worst accident in the history of British Mountaineering.. that event changed everything and further accidents like Lyme Bay have led to the lack of opportunities for kids to get out in the hills.
The Grump seems to have removed one of it's posts from this morning, which is a shame because I thought it was very relevant.
If kids were losing their lives in fell races then it would absolutley fall down on the FRA and the RO, duty of care is different between adults and juniors - which is explicitly stated in the rules and safety notes.
Ok.. now this is another huge bolt for you.. Fell running exists outside of fell racing... well for some... the LiFR could potentially be used to take people outside into unsuitable environments..
And I know I'll get the alarmist nonsense.... insult... its fairly standard.. The 1971 disaster was a day when everything that could go wrong did go wrong with horrific consequences. Which as a leader in the outdoors you should always be thinking of what can go wrong and dealing with the risks.. like you would as an individual.. but give a person the title 'leader' then they have the duty of care..you've taken the individual responsibility away and given it to the leader.
Which is why I brought it up, on one hand the FRA seem to state, rather ambiguously, that the individual is responsible, yet then brought in a leadership course which is too brief..and not really a leadership course..
As an ex chairman of a running club and race organiser i became very angry at the way i was starting to be told how i had to comform to take runners out for a run with the club.Eventually i had to go and get a level 1 uka coach badge, what a joke. Still not had the fifty quid back.I was told that i was now qualified to lead runners, yes lead runners that i had been leading for ten years. Why because of insurance. I would be okay if i had risk assessed the route and had a quick chat before we set off. Oh and insisted on floro kit. The last meeting we had was about getting runners some of those flashing armbands.Okay maybe overkill but thats the way it went.Iain does the fell running leadership course just mean your insured to lead runners on the fells.? Box ticking like you say.
You'd be covered under UKA liability insurance I think. But I don't see how group training runs aren't covered by your running club insurance? There's no reason why that had to change as far as I understand. The old informal way of more senior club runners informally 'leading' groups can still happen I think. The step to bringing in these leading runners courses/qualifications is a huge step which I think UKA/the FRA rushed into. I just don't think its practical to train people to a sufficient standard, you'll just reduce the amount of participation.Quote:
Originally Posted by daz h
I think by making it more formal you place much greater responsibility on the formal leader and if an accident happened then the course would be scrutinized. And basically you'll learn very little about actually taking people out on runs on these courses, so to be honest I don't think they are worth the paper they are printed on.
Ach, we're having exactly the same north of the border Daz. So bloomin' frustrating. So, if I've got it right, you can go on a course which might last, say, a day, having had little previous experience of running....and then you can come back off that course and start telling runners who've been running for years, mainly on the fells, in all sorts of conditions, and who've been going out on the fells walking for 40 years now, that it's not really safe to do a certain route and certainly not by headtorch, because there are some very dangerous tree roots which you might twist an ankle on:angry:
I understand the requirement these days for pieces of paper to "tick all the boxes", but surely there still has to be room for some common sense and room for people with less experience to listen to and learn from those with considerable experience, whether adorned with coaching badges or not?!? I know there are plenty I listen to because they have "been there, done that", not because of their qualifications.
Iain, you say "old informal way of more senior club runners informally 'leading' groups can still happen I think". Is that right? I get the distinct impression from various clubs I've been in that it "has" to be "qualified" people.
Uk athletics told me at the time all runs was covered but hazardous activities was not.I wasnt told exactly what hazardous activities covered so i had to scrap leaping through the river erewash with headtorches on just in case.They then told me someone , ie the leader really should have a qualification to say they could lead runners on mid week training sessions. , i kid you not. They then told me to get a level one coach badge. That was about 3 years ago. Not sure of leader courses was about then.But hazardous activities is a very grey area.
I didn't think anything has actually changed to stop the old way? Maybe it has, I keep out of any committee and run our club/region runs through our business because the committee said they wanted no link to them due to the high risk of running at night with a head torch...
But I do know Eryri still ran/run informal Sunday runs as a club and Tuesday evening training nights with no formal leaders. I thought as long as its adults then its OK.. with the growth of all these courses I think what you are saying will get proposed one day but didn't think it was currently a stipulation of being covered by your club liability insurance..