I asked this question last year....there is, but its never been reached.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Deek
Printable View
I asked this question last year....there is, but its never been reached.;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Deek
no entry limit for the waltz - 75 for the TWA:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Deek
When will you be updating the Online Entries?
Just trying to keep on top of my juniors and make sure that they don't miss the deadline with it being pre entry only.
No entry limit? Isn't that a little bit irresponsible? I mean there must be a limit to how many runners you, your organisation and the fragile environment where you hold the race can support. Surely?Quote:
Originally Posted by wynn
Have you run it? The walkers in the last 5K outnumber the AW runners by about 10:1.
Our impact is minimal.
Yes I've run it, it's a beautiful race. But, just because there is no impact currently (though I'm not convinced either that there isn't an impact on the valley traffic!!), but it doesn't mean that there wouldn't be if the numbers got to more than a thousand. Wynn can't say there's NO limit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Bolox - the route up to Hindscarth is completely trashed and wasn't like that when the race was first run. I would be very surprised if the Waltz wasn't a significant cause.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
There are plenty of races out there that don't have limits, because they have assessed that the normal number of entrants cause no significant harm. So it is a bit harsh to say they are irrisponsible for having no limit. That is their judgement call.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorkshire Thug
There are definately places in the Lakes that have been damaged by fell runners as they are on known race routes that would not be frequented by walkers unless they were well off the normal walking routes.Quote:
Originally Posted by No map, no compass
I'm no expert in matters like this and I wouldn't want to dismiss the effect that Fell Racing can have on the Lakeland Environment. But I would have thought that the race would have only a minor effect on the fells.
Maybe fell runners in general, as it's not the 300 pairs off feet per year running around the course.
There's recces and training etc that in total probably contributes far more than the race.
But I think with the growth in walking there will be 10 walkers at least for every fell runner that goes around the Newlands Valley Horseshoe.
Incidentally, I am aware of quite some issues around Witton Park.
The Northern XC was held at Witton only 6 weeks ago with over 200 runners, followed 2 weeks later by the Lancs Schools XC.
You wouldn't een know they'd been run there now so thankfully it's not runners creating the problem.
What you do see though around the woodland trails is erosion, in the main created by mountain bikes and horses.
This seems to have happened over the last couple of years in the area between the Park and Billinge Woods.
I would think it is mainly the racing which causes the most erosion, particularly championship races - the last championship AW had 600+ runners, all of whom will have run over the same ground within less than an hour, and it regularly has 400+ runners. Whilst there maybe more walkers over the same ground over a year the concentrated effect of a race has to have a significant impact.
I know loads of races have no limits - doesn't make it right though does it? All races have a limit if you think about it, a point at which it either becomes a farce, or starts to damage the surroundings or gets too unwieldy for the safety factors to work properly.
I just think it would be good for the sport if a few more organisers admitted it, that's all. Then maybe people like the National Trust wouldn't give people like Wynn a hard time when she tries to kick start a new race?? Just a thought!!
It's not just the race and the runners though, is it? Last time I did this race we were sitting in a traffic jam for half an hour - I know locals in the area, and they get thoroughly pissed off with it.
Damn right there's damage! New path through the green soup on Maiden Moor - new path down the side from Catbells summit. Neither there before the bally waltz I'll have you know! As for the locals - are there any left? All holiday pads now aren't they?
Well if it aint for usin whats the point in it being there eh!Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernest Flange-Nibbler
Here are some options Re the waltz or any popular race.
A Cancel race all together.
B Relocate.
C Don't run every year.
D Alternate courses.
E As part of running event runners have to do 'x' hours work on the local environment to repair it. This happens at some major races in the U.S.A. and I personally think is a good idea.{Not practical for all races but major ones which are causing issues. It may even thin the fields a bit.}.
F Raise the cost.
G Insist all runners first aid trained.
Not all of these options do i agree with however if the trick is to cause less damage and as part of that lower numbers to cause less damage in the first place then all of these options may do that.
I think thats a good point and if the car parking charges are high enough hopefully they will encourage more people to car share, cycle to the race or park elsewhere and walk in - how about free parking for cars with more than four occupants? (I suggest IHMR had the right idea about this last year as well).Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorkshire Thug
What!!Quote:
Originally Posted by yorkshire Thug
Have you counted the numbers of walkers going up Catbells on a summer weekend - I have - nearly as many as our race entry. Have you seen the crap our marshals collect every year.... thats nowt to do with our race... have you any idea how much money the race puts back into the valley... that'ed be all the profits....... have you read the CROW Act....
You may have a point about race numbers although I don't believe they cause any environmental problem at the AW. However your point about traffic disruption is daft. I know locals who are not thoroughly annoyed by it and just make sure they avoid the area at that time. If everything that caused a little bit of inconvenience was not allowed, you would have to cancel every single lakeland show and every major event virtually anywhere in the country!Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorkshire Thug
I agree with Cougar about the car parking charges though
I have been twice with full cars and I have to say that has applied to those that I know that have been to the race.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deejay
Fell runners everywhere should try to car share and I think they do tend to.
But there are a lot of cars. The last 2 years has also been part of the Junior FRA Champs, and I think this will be the third and last (for a while) this year.
That alone has been part of the increase in numbers.
Secondly, look at the total amount of senior runners. It has only exceeded 200 when the race has been allocated Champs status, or the FRA Junior has been attached.
It will be interesting to see if the numbers are lower this year. Altough it is the Juniors still, it goes up against the PPP which I am sure will have an effect.
Wynn,Quote:
Originally Posted by wynn
AW is a beautiful race and I thoroughly enjoy it every time I run it. I'm sure that you give loads of money back to the valley, and I don't think I've ever seen it with too many runners, although it came very close the one and only time it was an English Championship race.
But that doesn't mean that it can take an unlimited number of runners, does it? And I think that you should have thought very hard before making that particular statement publicly. People working for our main land owner can and do read the entries on this forum (as you well know!) and it would be a great shame if a careless statement like that led to the withdrawal of permission for the race.
The traffic jam business is an unfortunate side effect of holding a popular event in a valley with narrow lanes. It happens, and, believe me, there are locals who are annoyed by it.
YT
"....No entry limit? Isn't that a little bit irresponsible?
Yes I've run it…..I thoroughly enjoy it every time I run it
Wynn can't say there's NO limit
I think that you should have thought very hard before making that particular statement publicly....."
Yorkshire Thug, perhaps you (as well as other like-minded people) could volunteer not to run the race. That would help decongest the valley! It would be preferable to do that than lecture Wynn.
Yiannis
Not really, there is clearly no need to worry about entries because it doesnt reach massive numbers so what is the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorkshire Thug
As for people getting pee'd off with traffic from the race, tell them to get a life.
Any up date on the entry list for TWA Wynn??
Yiannis,Quote:
Originally Posted by ydt
OK. It's a deal - I'll skip this year's AW, but you and Wynn have a think about a realistic limit for your race, and think about solutions for some of your other problems too. My concerns are genuine, no matter how mch you re-edit my posts and try to put different meanings into them.
Al,Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fowler
Really! You wouldn't exactly make a very good embassador for our sport by telling the residents of Newlands valley to get stuffed ... so long as the race goes ahead!!
No Junior Champs Race - that will happen in all likelyhood from next year and therefore I am sure you will see a drop in cars and athletes.
I live in one of the most spectacular valleys in the country. Traffic is normal at the weekends. It's a price I pay for living where I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorkshire Thug
For one day a year running means my road is shut and I can't use my car. For one other day a year the village is almost impassable due to another race.
I don't mind at all. Even before I ran those race I didn't care.
I get TOLD my road is shut. No choices. But I know these races bring money to the valley, just like the Anni Waltz.
Good to see people happy and fit. Could be worse, could be a moaning old so and so eh?
As a local impacted on by such races, I agree with Al.
Re erosion. Of course numbers should sometimes be restricted after saturation point is reached. Most races in Snowdonia aren't limited, that only happens once the race reaches saturation point, which in Snowdonia is limited to only 3 races that I can think of off hand (Snowdon, Pen Fell Race, Marathon).
If you care so much about the environment why do you run any of the lake land classics or any other major race or route in the mountains of the UK. All those races have trods which have developed specifically BECAUSE of those races. So does the Paddy Buckley, so does the Bob Graham, so does the Pedol, so does Elidir, so does Jura and probably 95% of races in the calendar..We the runners are just as responsible for those trods as the organisers.
You've said before how you've been an elite runner, international, so I'm assuming you run the shortest lines in such races, following most of these trods, adding to the erosion, and not following the man made paths which could take you around a route like the Peris?
Here's an idea, if you care so much why not bow out from the sport..
You should see what happens on the Isle of Man when the TT is on. It's all good.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
[quote=Yorkshire Thug;315819]Al,
Yorkshire Thug... in the real world - with a real name.... are you a race organiser??
if so you will choose how you run your race...
our racers are not the only ones to use these hills.
the only time we caused any damage... (the scar on catbells) we offered to reseed it and tape it to let it rest, and we have avoided that bit since.
we are responsible race organisers and i take exception to your comment thay we are irresponsible.
It's been a british and/or english championship 4 times... the only time it got silly was 2006 when there were problems with clashes for the other medium races....Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorkshire Thug
Wynn,
Have you read any of my posts at all?
I never said that your race was overcrowded. I never said that your race caused environmental damage. I never got annoyed by the traffic jams you cause in the valleys - but others do, and I pass that information on to you because you should be aware of this.
What I did say was that your race cannot take unlimited numbers. No race can. Anybody with a brain can understand that. The irresponsibility lies in publicly declaring that you don't need to limit numbers.
If you can't see the problem with that, then it's no wonder you have problems getting races off the ground. It's no wonder you have to live with a 75 man limit on your new race.
When I read that there was no limit for the race, I assumed it wasn't going to be a big field and there was no chance of it getting to the size where it would need to be limited. I don't think it was intended to mean 'even if 000's of poeple enter it will still be ok'. These things need to be reassessed constantly. As for traffic, the less the better. Cars and traffic jams are just so intrusive and insenstive to anything they pass through. There will be at least one contestant to the race arriving by bus and cycling up the valley to the start. By the sounds of it, they will be passing lots of cars en route. :D
I'm a race organiser. The vast % of the local residents around Witton are very amenable to the events that we stage there.
I think we demonstrate our respect for the residents as we leaflet them in advance to warn them of potential disruption on days such as the Northerns.
They actually have a problem with the 10 Day Easter Fair and regular Circus that comes as they take up the Car Park, and no other Parking is provided, ensuring that the main road is double parked for the duration.
Often in the evenings the visiting public are what you might call pond life as well:rolleyes:
We adopt a simlar stance around Edisford Bridge when we have the roads closed for a couple of hours for the RV10K at Xmas.
That doesn't mean to say that 100% will ever be satisfied. You always have the nimbies.
I get the impression that Wynn has a good relationship with the locals, and as has been mentioned, the race brings valuable income to the Valley and once a year I am sure that the vast % of the locals are in support or at the very least tolerant.
We have a Race Limit at RV10K - it's a permitted Road Race and we have been able to raise the limit in the last few years since we went traffic free.
The main issue with raising it further is Car Parking.
We have to have a limit due to the permit - but in reality it could have been without a published limit as we have never reached our limit.
The Cross Country events do not have a limit.
Wynn did not say unlimited - merely that there was no limit.
That is in line with many races on Fell and Cross Country - and the main reason that they do not have a limit, is because they have not reached a point where they have had a problem.
If they do have a problem in the future, which is more likely to come from traffic management issues than anything else, then they will have to reassess this in their risk assessment and perhaps publish a limit.
Thank you WP. At last a reasonable (and responsible) answer.
All you've done is moan Thug.
A straight talking Yorkshire woman eh..yet unable to post without hiding behind a name..
Many overplay the rights of locals in nationally important places. Our National Parks are for all to enjoy. If you live in such a place you just have to accept tourists who want to share that area with you.
It's no big hardship, afterall its only for a few months a year and their income, whether at hotels, pubs, races, helps the council maintain the services for the locals all year round.
There's times when our roads closed, I have to park away from the house, the pubs packed and I can't get a seat; its just a small price to pay for living in a stunning area,, and the tourists have positives and negatives.
Err ... no.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
If you're having difficulty reading what I wrote, ask Whitton Park, he understood what I meant and responded with a perfectly reasonable answer.
You seem to be very good at hiding behind your false name .... come on tell us who you really are..... or are you too chicken!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorkshire Thug
it's easy to pop at things when theres no comeback...
as for the Teenager - we did it properly, consulting landowners, the NT and locals, planning and re planning the route to cause the least amount of impact.
We are also one of the few races that are licenced to race over national trust land (including a payment for the licence), all this takes time and yes the limit is 75 because we felt that was enough for a new race.....
But let me guess how many races you organise.... ahhh, the same numbers as the fingers on a boxing glove...
My email is not a thumbs up for what you've had to say I'm afraid. Your point was valid, but I would say a little abrasively expressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yorkshire Thug
That's quite easily done in forums / emails and we've perhaps all done it from time to time.
I am trying to outline that organising races is a huge task that most of us take very seriously wther Fell, Road, XC or even track.
Not just in terms of athletes, but the area and the local population as well, as bad organisation / planning and disregard for others will most likely lead to a race being stopped.
Wynn will have, I'm sure, gone through exactly these considerations and more to arrive at the current arrangement, but it is a constantly changing scene for all race organisers.
Look at Rivington Pike, one of the oldest and most famous on the racing map - they now have to pay for the road closure (a cost which will only increase) and this may put the future of the race in jeopadry eventually.
Hopefully plenty will support the race this year - it probably needs at least 250 to cover the costs.
Last year I teamed up with the Dashers to bring the FRA Junior Champs to the Darwen Gala Race.
One of the few complaints we had was there wasn't enough "fell" terrain. One parent would prefer that we left the recognised moorland tracks and trods and tore across the open moorland:confused:
Thankfully the race will remain on the beaten track, which might make it a little less challenging, but does prevent damage to the countryside whilst still providing a suitable climbing challenge for Juniors in an AS Category Race.
Think about all the potential juniors or parents of juniors who after a cross country season are contmplating trying fell this summer. See this is the first race and read the thread. Petty arguments like this will damage the image and ultimately ruin both the young and senior talent coming into the sport. Stop being idiots and talk about the race instead of logistics, have people in the Newlands valley ever complained??? I suspect the farmers have made a nice bit of cash put of it as have the campsites. Fees are paid to NT. So can we please talk about something else