1.75k run at 80% effort at teatime
1000m swim in the afternoon (2×500)
5k bike this morning
Just need short Tri for fat, old lads with no time cut offs
Working well for the depression though.
Hopefully weight loss and fitness will follow.
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1.75k run at 80% effort at teatime
1000m swim in the afternoon (2×500)
5k bike this morning
Just need short Tri for fat, old lads with no time cut offs
Working well for the depression though.
Hopefully weight loss and fitness will follow.
Club night tonight and the session was 2 x 2 mile reps, with 2mins rest between.
I kept it steady, having raced hard at the weekend, felt like I was not even close to getting below 7min/mile... with a bit of track running before the session, the 1.5mile out and back to the rep, and the 4 mile session, a total of 9 steady miles this evening.
Hopefully will be able to go hard at thursday's session although I'm currently sat on an icy pack of mixed fruit, with a slight hamstring strain. All being well, might have a bash at a Parkrun on Saturday.
Another session in paradise.
3.6k run
500m swim
8k mountain bike
This is the life😎
I did the 9 Edges Route today from Ladybower to Robin Hoods Pub. 21mls over the beautiful edges of the Peak District. I have never ran more than 15mls before today. I was going for 6hrs ish (nice and steady) but we did it in 5hrs 15mins even with stops for photos and filling up our fluids at Longshaw cafe. Really pleased with that. I put it down to the 206mls of walking I've done over the last two weeks to complete a continuous round of the Peak District Boundary Way.
MrRTS's recovery rice pudding did the trick when I got home haha.
Fantastic stuff Mrs RTS... hope to see you and Nigel at a race somewhere soon...
I've got a very minor strain in my hamstring so ducking out of hard training for a couple of days, but still maintaining some climbing on the treadmill. With a busy schedule of races coming up I don't want to take any chances.
Went for a walk on Ilkley Moor this morning - fabulous views and very warm when the sun came up
Flat, fast 5km at 9 o'clock this morning. Yes, I have done my first parkrun.
The week before last, I saw a piece on the back page of the Loughborough Echo about a new parkrun that had started at Dishley, on the far side of town from where I live. Going onto the website, I discovered that the course is flat but, importantly, had no tarmac: playing fields, footpaths and the canal towpath. So worth going for a workout if I woke up early enough on a Saturday morning and had nothing else on.
Anyway, my 21:47 today makes me the current M60-64 record holder for the Dishley Loughborough Parkrun! I can't see that lasting very long.
I used to be very anti parkruns, but coaching beginners at my club led me into doing them, and I really enjoy them. Not a priority, but if I've got nothing else on they get you out of bed on a Saturday, stop you drinking too much on a Friday and give you an excuse for a late greasy breakfast. Great speed work, and you can do them all over the country - quite fun doing them them as a visitor, back home by 10.30 with the rest of the day to enjoy. Nicest I've done are Fountains Abbey and Dolgellau - so far. 21.47 is a very respectable time - I managed 21.30 last year, Quite easy to be first V60 which does the ego no harm.
I don't think I will be doing much "parkrun tourism": looking around the websites, it appears that my new local parkrun is very unusual in being entirely away from tarmac and other hard surfaces. I can tolerate a bit of tarmac during a race, and I have even survived the three-miles-plus of it at the end of the Jura race, but I wouldn't want to do a run that was mostly or entirely on it.
The obvious advantages of a course in a "park" are pleasant surroundings and absence of motor traffic, but I would have thought that having a more forgiving surface to run on would be seen as another advantage.
Apparently, many of the early Parkruns were on grass in parks but the local authorities did not like their lovely grass turned into muddy tracks which in winter they obviously did. My nearest one, the Bakewell Parkrun is a boring out and back along the Monsal Trail. Not in Bakewell and not in a park unless the Peak District National Park counts!
Aye, Parkruns are good speedwork. Especially for someone like me who considers any race under 1.5 hours something of a sprint, it's good to do parkruns and track work and find out how hard it really can be to run flat out for 18/19/21/+ minutes.
A solid weekend. A sharp 3.5 mile/2500ft hill session yesterday, and a steadier 12 mile/4500ft today. Brings the weekly total to 39 miles/13900ft.
Will be 'Fishwicking' next weekend at Weasdale Horseshoe/Sedbergh Hills. My first time doubling up on the fells. Have doubled up an XC/fell race over a weekend, some would argue that is equally as hard if not harder, with the flat out effort of a muddy XC, but i guess I'll find out next weekend. Will do a hard effort on the track on Tuesday, but main aim is to get to the start line next Saturday feeling fresh.
Weighed myself this morning, 77.7kg.... back to my "fight weight"..... my fight weight was 78kg, although I did weigh in at 77.3 on my last one. Did get down to the dizzying lows of 76kg in Thailand but that was under a regime of 6hrs training a day, 6 days a week, 2 meals a day of very clean food, and in that hot climate, so I'd be surprised to get that low over here. But all the same I'm pleased to not be carrying too much excess weight, despite my relatively large frame for a fellrunner.
Heading back down to the midlands from Scotland so grabbed a quick hour or so in the Lakes to run up Ullock Pike, along the ridge to Carlside and then back through Dodd Wood. Having been in the far north of Scotland for 2 weeks, the temperature down here really caught me out. Sweating buckets by the end but loved to be back amongst the fells if only for a short time.
Back to the track tonight and a tough session.
4 x 400m, 2 x 800m, 1 x 1000m, 2 x 800m, 4 x 400m, 90 seconds rest.
Went off hard in an effort to sustain a faster pace than usual throughout the session. Things started to get tough around the 2nd 800m rep. But managed to hold on, and even knock out the final set of 400m reps faster than the first set, just about keeping them at 80secs.
I'd gone off chasing some of the faster runners, and left my usual group behind, but admittedly they did slowly reel me in throughout the later reps as they had started at a more sensible pace, but I'm making a conscious effort to generally run faster and harder, so this was to be expected, and hopefully the hard effort will start to pay off in the coming weeks.
Unlikely to do any further hard sessions this week due to two races this weekend.
8 miles tonight, of which just over 4.5 were hard effort.
Club night again, and a 6 mile run with the middle two miles being hard effort. Bearing in mind the big weekend coming up, I took the whole run steadyish (aka I ran the first mile of the effort steady, but when one of the faster guys caught me I got excited and hammered it for the 2nd mile). But with a good track warmup, a total of 8 generally steady miles tonight.
The far north of Scotland.... what a place... Spent a long birthday weekend in Ullapool in 2007, staying at the Ferry Boat Inn on the sea-front. Arriving in Ullapool after a nine hour drive (complete with being stopped and fined for speeding south of Inverness), taking a cider out onto the sea wall outside the inn, in the sunshine, was absolutely magical.
Climbed Stac Pollaidh, just the drive up there was amazing, but the view from the top, endless lochans, mountains, and the silhouettes of Canisp and Suilven on the horizon, absolutely magical.
The next day, headed up one of the big mountains north of the Inverness-Ullapool Road, (Beinn Dearg?), climbing out of the forestry, onto the flanks of the mountain, we soon hit thick cloud and snow, and realising the view from the top, if we ever found it, would not be fantastic, so headed down, some intricate compass work getting us back to the car. Also saw a huge herd of wild deer, an attempt to get close to them quickly aborted, as they spotted me and disappeared within seconds.
That night, it was my birthday, and my football team had won the illustrious Nuneaton & District Sunday League Division 2 that day, so a big celebration on the cards. Endless pints of strong cider around 10%, plus an attempt at going across the very extensive top shelf of whiskies, saw me in quite a state, and i vaguely recall chucking up out the window of my room, which just happened to be directly above the front door of the inn. The drive back the next day was a bit of a chore, and included quite a few 'comfort breaks'. Driving south to the midlands, and seeing "Carlisle 101 miles" on a motorway signpost, is rather disheartening when feeling sorry for yourself.
Had an epic afternoon out on Ullock Pike a good few years ago. Drove up at dawn from Cov, parked up for an early mornig jaunt up Blencathra in very wet and cloudy conditions (but generally quite benign). Then drove round towards Bassenthwaite for an attempt up ullock Pike. Unfortuantely the weather was even worse and the wind was ferocious. Up on Longside Edge there was no choice but to stick it out, reaching a bit more of a sheltered position on Carlside i noticed the side of my face which was in the wind had gone completely numb and tingly. Bravely took the decision to drop from Carlside Col into the valley heading north (Southernadale?). Incidentally that is a lovely lonely valley.
Just had 2 weeks up there and can't wait to go back. This trip was mainly about getting a flavour for the far NW and seeing where we would like to spend more time. We have the luxury of a campervan so it turned into a 1900 mile road trip including 4 days on the Orkneys and 3 on Skye. Not a huge amount of running but tried to get in at least half a days walking each day. The roads from Thurso to Durness and next day Durness to Ullapool were absolutely magical. Other highlights were the mountains of Assynt (and especially Suilven), the Cuillins and Trotternish. Orkney was a return trip - had a great time there last year and if it was not for the lack of hills, I could definitely live there.
Southerndale it is - a lovely, quiet and usually quite sheltered valley so not a bad choice given the weather.
The loop from Bassenthwaite up Ullock Pike, Carl Side, Skiddaw and then down over Bakestall and via Dash falls has to be one of my favourite runs. Ullock Pike has long been a favourite of mine. I used to do some work out on a farm in the Rosley/Wigton area and it was one of the easiest fells for me to get to. That and many holidays in Bassenthwaite have meant I have climbed it probably more often then any other. Had a few epics up there myself and also some truly memorable times - one Easter I woke up to a few inches of snow, went up there shortly after dawn and had the pleasure of being the first foot prints along long side edge and then on to Skiddaw with mist coming and going enough so that visibility was never a problem. Lovely stuff.
After my first attempt at Fishwicking at the weekend, being a roaring success (by my own standards), I was raring to get back into training tonight, although realised I need to be careful as I still have a lot of fatigue.
Club night. 4 mile road effort, followed by 4 x 400m with 90 seconds recovery.
Found the 4 miles a real test after the weekend, and was well back behind the faster group which I aspire to keep up with most weeks. I guess I was at 'tempo' pace, I was working but certainly would usually have a couple more gears.
This warmed me up though, and I felt better on the track, and was only 3 or 4 seconds a lap off my usual pace.
Feeling pretty stiff now, but an easy session tomorrow with plenty of stretching, and hopefully I'll be back on form for Thursday at the club.
Total of 9 miles tonight of which 5 were effort.
Club night again. Kenyan Hills, 20 minute effort. Not really a hill by our standards.... probably 40-50ft ascent in 200 metres. Constant up and down for 20 mins. Still felt stiff from the weekend but ran reasonably well.
With a long warmup and run out to the session and a decent run back, 8.5 miles tonight.
Will do another easier session tomorrow and then take a decision on whether to gamble on a speedy Parkrun on Saturday.
After a 14 month break I returned to do a Parkrun. In fact the first time I've attempted the relatively new Parkrun in my hometown.
Obviously after over a year, I was hoping for a big pb to show for my training (previous best was 19:47).
Set off at what I thought was a steady pace and was soon clear at the front. After 5 mins there was only one guy within touching distance behind me and everyone else was out of the picture (this is a smaller Parkrun with only 120 or so runners, and the competition at the front end is not as hot as, for example, the Cov Parkrun which can see 700 runners and plenty of good club runners).
Unfortunately things started to unravel. We hit the trail section down through the trees, and once at the bottom I powered along the track, and missed the turn back up to the hill to the main path. Being a fellrunner I would never complain about marshalling, but perhaps a cone or direction arrow would have prevented this.
Unfortunately the guy 30 yards behind me was a debutant as well, so he blindly followed me. Nobody else was in shouting distance to call us back so we powered on. It became apparent we had gone wrong, so jogged back towards the correct junction, eventually just crashing through the bushes to return to the main path.
At this point I had no idea what position we were in, so continued on, pulling one place back, but the guy who got lost behind me pulled out about 20 seconds on me over the final 8 minutes or so. We still actually finished 1st and 2nd (me 2nd). If I'd known we were still in the top three after getting lost I'd have made a bit more effort over the final stages!
Finished dead on 20 mins, despite an estimated 400m extra, a good 20-30secs head-scratching over our predicament, and deciding whether to continue, plus a thorny detour through some trees and bushes. Reckon I was probably on for below 18:30 but I guess I'll never know until I try again.
Getting lost on a Parkrun... not a great moment for a fellrunner, never mind one about to take on the classic course at the LDMT. But a fun morning and with the run to the venue and back, another 6 miles in the bag.
Have you thought of trying GPS?
Well I'm considering taking map & compass to get me round my next track session without going astray....
After yesterday's calamity, a steadier session with hill intervals. Clocked up 9 miles and 3700ft, which gives me a weekly total of 40 miles and 9000ft. Strangely this felt like an easy week now, so I guess the consistent mileage and climb is helping.
Will likely repeat today's session tomorrow, nothing too strenuous, before a very tough looking track session on Tuesday, and Stretton Skyline next weekend, which is a very tough mixture of hard running and steep climbs.
After 19 days off with a cracked rib I went for my first potter again this morning.
Deep breaths were painful but when I eased back it was only the left foot plant that tingled.
Good to be back.
Good stuff Stagger. Rib injuries are painful. I broke the same rib twice in separate kickboxing incidents, and part of it does stick out now (you wouldn't notice it unless you felt it, but I know it's there).
Won't forget when I first did it... was helped out of the ring after the fight, laid down on what was effectively a pasting-table, until I'd got over the initial shock. Got drove home, went to bed with a couple of cocodamol, got up an hour later and went back to the venue to fetch my car! Unfortunately returned to training far too quickly and about 2-3 months later it got caught in training and went again. Lesson learned!
Hill session today. 75 mins. After about 45 mins I was feeling good and saw a slim possibility of reaching 4000ft for the session if I went hell for leather in the final 30 mins. So cut the recovery periods down dramatically and went at it. Finished up 28ft short of 4000!
But sign of a good session. I read somewhere (possibly Feet In The Clouds), Billy Bland say that "the races you don't win are the hardest because you've put everything in and still not enough. When you win you've always got something in reserve". I absolutely blasted myself til the final second, and still couldn't get there.
Followed by an unholy amount of squats and leg presses, a big start to the week.
Big track session tonight.
16 x 400m with 90secs recovery. It may be 'only' 4 miles of hard effort, but I defy anyone to run it hard and say it's not a tough session. I'm not one for the amateur dramatics, falling over at the finish line etc, I prefer to shake hands and say well done, and sometimes a quick sit down is required.... but tonight was the first time I've ever been down on my knees at the end of a session... mind you I did get back up and knock out a 17th rep for good luck!
Went out fairly quickly in a front group of 5, but myself and another guy, far more experienced than me, could sense it was too fast to sustain, so we held it steady. After about 8 reps I could see the 3 in front weren't stretching the gap, so we wound it up a little and had reeled them in by the 14th rep. The last two reps were like the Olympic finals, all notion of pacing disappeared as we ran each other into the ground. The final rep I went off down the straight like I was running a 100 metre sprint and opened up a massive gap... realising I was going to look pretty stupid if I didn't maintain it, I realised I had to keep it up for another 300m, resulting in me being on my knees at the end.
Fantastic club session, big turnout, even the slower guys all finished 16 reps, working to their max. Including a decent warm up and down, 8.5 miles tonight.
Club night tonight. 6 mile run with middle 2 miles being a time trial.
After tuesday's monster track session, 6 hours in a car yesterday and no training/stretching last night, and the Stretton Skyline this weekend, I elected to keep it steady throughout tonight.
A comfortable 8.5 miles in total tonight. A couple of easy sessions before Sunday and I should be raring to push for a good pb at Stretton.
After a tough race on Sunday, and feeling particularly fatigued, it's been a very steady start to the week... but back with the club tonight...
8 x half mile reps on the road with 90secs recovery. Was very conscious not to push too hard after the weekend, and the first couple were very steady, and even though I ramped up from there, I never really got below 6min/mile pace, just a fair pace and turning the legs over fast, but not putting in any massive effort...
I've been hitting it hard lately, consistent weeks of 40+ miles and 10000+ft, last week being 51 miles and 11000ft. It's obviously helped... on Sunday I didn't feel that I ran especially great, but a pb of nearly 10 mins. But I did have that horrible feeling I used to get, about 10-15mins into a race, when I feel like there's no way I can finish. I can't even remember the last time I had that feeling enter my mind, such is the confidence I've had from training and some decent race results.
I guess it was just a case of all the work and racing, and a bit tired mentally and physically. So my aim this week is to keep ticking over but not do anything too hard, and get to the start line of the LDMT on Sunday feeling fresh and positive. No doubt that will be a massive test both mentally and physically.
Club night again. 6.5 mile run with the middle 2 miles time-trial. As usual I intended to go easy, and as usual struggled to keep that promise to myself.
First mile I did keep steady, around 6:45, but hearing the footsteps of faster guys encroaching behind me in the 2nd mile, I really sped up, and wasn't far off full speed by the end. Overall 2nd mile in around 6mins, although was going a lot harder than that pace by the end.
Total of 9 miles tonight. Feel a lot better now than I did before the session. Easy session tomorrow with a bit of stretching, Saturday I'll do something for a few easy hours in the Lake District near Grasmere, perhaps a few Wainwrights I've not done (Sergeant Man, Gibson Knott, Blea Rigg), and the LDMT Sunday (god help me).
Yes i viewed the MWIS forecast anxiously last night! Last time i went up Blea Rigg from Grasmere i got navigationally confused in clear weather. This was before my fellrunning days though. Ended up making a dignified retreat down to Chapel Stile and getting a lift back from Elterwater!
I'll keep an eye out for you Pete. Should be starting on the fells around 1pm, but whether i'll start from Ambleside/Red Bank or Grasmere side, unsure yet.
A fairly gentle 14 miles today out above Grasmere/Easdale/Langdale. Very steady and walked much of the climbs. Obviously when I saw any hill walkers (and there weren't many), I absolutely booted it in the traditional style, not stopping to hyperventilate until I was out of sight.
From Grasmere, headed up lower Easdale, climbing past Sourmilk Gill falls, crossing them at the top and gaining a foothold on the ridge up to Tarn Crag. A great, seemingly relatively unknown path leading up the undulating ridge, and although indistinct unless you were right on the path, was on Tarn Crag summit 45 mins after leaving Grasmere. A lovely summit, the ground dropping away into Easdale and the Tarn, and the wilderness leading up onto High Raise/Greenup beyond.
Then picked up some bits of path and trods, although the general direction is fairly obvious, up to the broken line of fence posts leading up to Sergeant Man, 25mins from summit to summit. Decided against extending round to Pavey Ark, as didn't want to push my legs on the steep descent to get back down towards Blea Rigg. So instead followed the fantastic broad undulating ridge path direct to Blea Rigg. The best part is the path is a good guide, but you can bypass the rocky path throughout on fantastic soft turf, never really straying a few yards from the path itself, guiding you to Blea Rigg summit. Another 20 mins work from Seargeant Man got me here.
Have to say that from here, Blea Rigg becomes very confusing, even in clear weather it's not initially obvious, god help us if the LDMT takes us over here tomorrow and the cloud is down. Taking numerous sub-optimal lines and countless unnecessary little summits, it was still only about 45 mins very steady to get down to Elterwater. From there, took the riverside path to Skelwith Bridge and then along the lower flanks of Loughrigg back to Ambleside.
So a fairly steady afternoons work. I suppose this highlights one of the great things about Fell Running... that would likely be close to a full day out for a lot of people, but even at a gentle Fell Running pace it's a fairly achievable afternoon, over some very out-of-the-way country.
Lovely stuff Travs.
We probably passed each other on Blea Rigg. Me, Mrs S and the pooch had lovely afternoon (and surprisingly dry) up on Silver How, Blea Rigg and Sergeant Man. Dropped down into far Easedale and missed out Tarn Crag as Mrs has a dodgy knee that's not great on steeper descents.
Tarn crag is a lovely fell and although I had ticked off practically every Wainwright in the central fells, this one had eluded me until a LDMT recce earlier this year, mores the pity. Weather not looking great for tomorrow but today exceeded expectations so let's hope tomorrow follows suit.
Hi Pete, likely we bypassed on Blea Rigg, long stretches after the summit, heading back in the direction of Silver Howe/Ambleside, I was well over on the Langdale flank, having left the main path, did see people over to the left.
Still have a few more Central Fells to tick off, although they are now randomly spaced and difficult to tie together in one run.... Pavey Ark, Gibson Knott, Armboth Fell, Eagle Crag, Sergeants Crag, Grange Fell.... would make an interesting LDMT style day out...!
Well it's 6-20am, I've been awake an hour listening to the rain on the window here in Ambleside. Finally just dared to poke my head out the window and must admit I didn't like what I saw...!
After 64 miles and 17000ft last week, it has been an easy start to the week with a couple of steady sessions. Managed to get back down the club tonight for a 6.5 mile road run, which I kept steady except for an 800mtr thrash in the middle. Including my own track warmup, a total of 9 steady miles.
Possibly have a bash at a fast Parkrun on Saturday.
Returned to my local Parkrun this morning, having got lost there 3 weeks ago. But having got round the LDMT last weekend I felt ready for the navigational challenge of a marked 5km...
Managed 19:02 which whilst a pb by a long way, I wasn't incredibly happy with. I fell apart in the final mile, whether because of a very hard race last weekend, going out too fast, or perhaps I'm Just not as quick as I thought, I'm not sure. Certainly feel I've got another 30 seconds in me at least, in my current state.
Came 3rd. A group of 5 of us went out hard from the start, but on hitting the first hill, a couple went straight off the back. The winner (a clubmate) pulled away and showed his superior ability, finishing sub-18, and I was overtaken in the final mile. Worst bit for me was this guy took 20 seconds out of me in the final mile, I really phoned the last few minutes in.
Hopefully have another go in the coming weeks and hope to get significantly under 19mins.
Club night tonight, Kenyan Hills 20 minute session. I'm not too sure exactly what is Kenyan about running up and down a shallow hill alongside the busy A45 in Coventry. I'm told Kenyan refers to constant effort, as opposed to uphill or downhill reps.
The hill is about 600m long and never really gets above 8-9% gradient, so it's not exactly Gamlin End, but a hard session for me as it's basically a 20 minute speed session.
Pushed it quite hard throughout, managed to drop everyone apart from the coach, who had about 60 yards on me by the end. We had a new guy who is obviously pretty handy... he came flying past me about 15 mins in, but I could see he was working hard and I took him again on the final uphill.... got to show these new guys who is the "king of the hill...!" No doubt when he gets his eye back in he'll be miles in front of me!
7.5 miles including a good warmup and runout to the session.
6 miles and 3900ft today, very steady, capped off a poor week, around 22 miles and 6250ft in total.
The week started well with a good fast hill session, but felt a strain in my hamstring towards the end of that session, and it still hasn't gone away, so not beeen able to do much since. Having to race in the road relays yesterday I'm sure hasn't helped, a hard 6km there.
Peris next week, so although I'd love to have a solid week leading up to it, main priority will have to be getting to the start line next Saturday free of injury. Going into Peris with anything less than 100% confidence in my legs will be asking for trouble.
Club night last night. 8 x 1km reps with 90secs rest. 4 uphill (no more than 100ft climb), 4 downhill.
Prime concern is keeping my hamstring in good shape for Peris, so only did 5 reps, and kept very steady, not getting above 4:10/km
Steady 8 miles in total.
Hoping for a pb at Peris. Last year was difficult conditions underfoot, and a terrible footwear choice (i declined pure fell shoes in favour of some Scott Supertrac, hoping for a bit more comfort, which was a big error, and spent a good portion of the race on my arse, or limping due to the non-snug fit) (great shoes btw, just not pure fell shoes and definitely not 'Peris in bad conditions' shoes!), so all being well, can clear 5 hours with a bit to spare.
Good luck Travs
Thank you DT....
A gentle trot out from Llanberis this evening. Up the Maesgwm valley, onto and over the Moel Eilio ridge, and a fantastic run off the western end and down into Llanberis. 8 miles 2500ft.
Should I have gone on such a 'long' run just 18 hours before Peris? Well experience tells me it won't have hurt me. And I needed to make sure my hamstring was in a good state before ragging it to death tomorrow.
Fortunately my hamstring feels fine, although I can certainly feel that I've gone a couple of weeks without a solid 40 miles/10000ft.... felt invincible at Sedbergh and large parts of Stretton Skyline, felt distinctly off the pace this evening. But I appear to be fit and injury-free, so will give it everything tomorrow.
Snowdonia really is fantastic... the views from the A5 across to Moel Siabod and Snowdon, then the Snowdon Horseshoe from the Capel Curig-PYP road, and finally the views up on the Moel Eilio ridge tonight..... already feel like I've got my money's worth this weekend.
I hate to break it to Lakeland lovers... it may be the home of Fell Running... but in my opinion Snowdonia is even better... the mountains are just wilder. I challenge anyone to drive up from Bethesda to Capel Curig and not think similar...