Unwritten Fell Running Rules

ALWAYS queue at stiles should be the rule. Many of us think it already is. Even if the gate, fence, wall appears to be solid it might not be and broken gates etc antagonise already hard-pressed farmers leading them to withdraw cooperation/permission etc. leading to the end of the race. More and more seem to be ignoring this rule while myself and other idiots (particularly in the pack on bigger races) patiently queue at stiles. 30 years ago I tried to climb a gate and was heavily barracked but these days the waters seem to have been muddied.
Photographs of leading runners jumping fences, walls and gates appear in the FR. I have even seen marshalls encouraging people to climb fences. In a recent race I saw about a dozen runners climbed a metal gate in race next to a stile, sometimes 3 at a time! No doubt this was after various strictures from the RO.
The "rule" is contained in "Access and environmental guidelines for organisers of fell races" in the FRA handbook page 119"Boundary Protection -Limit wall and fence crossing to specific locations eg. particular stiles or gates and ensure that this is enforced". Do we keep to this or do we descend into an anarchic free for all?

We've discussed this already, jumping a stile queue by going over a wall or fence is acceptable if you don't touch it. I recently passed 2 runners on the Withins Skyline by hurdling the fence rather than waiting for the stile, it's acceptable because the risk of injury is high and damage isn't caused. I can see an emerging use of Parkour in fellrunning in years to come...Today's Parkour! Using cripple holes is also an acceptable way of cutting queues.

I beg to disagree. What happens if the "hurdle" turns into a crash into the wall/fence etc? I am never far enough up the field to see people who are capable of/confident in hurdling. From where I stand they are all touching, grasping, pulling. heaving, falling over these obstacles. Are we saying that there is one rule for the "elite" and another rule for the rest?
The distinction between hurdling and climbing may be a difficult one for many people leading us lesser mortals to think "well if they can do it why can't I?
Surely it is more effective to say ALL must queue? Fell runners generally want to keep things simple. In any case I would think that there is rarely a question of queuing at the front end so hurdling has little advantage except bravado.

Quote:

---

antagonise already hard-pressed farmers

---

Hahahahaha!!!! thats the funniest thing I've heard for a while!! :w00t:

Do you KNOW how much farmers get in single farm payments, and subsidy's???? I do!!! and let me tell you it will really annoy you when you find out how much!! Money that they get without even getting out of bed in the morning!! doubt it they even bother repairing/renewing a fence or a wall unless there's a european grant of tax payers money come through :thunbdown: could go really deep in to it but will leave it there.

As for the rule, wouldn't jump a wall as they are allways to high and the chance of injury with a collapse is quite high and it would anoy the farmer as he would probably have to get on his quad bike and work for 2-3hrs and would possibly pull out of leting the event carry on.
As for a fence of 4ft high...................would have no hesitation of clearing it........hand on top of the post and hop........job done :-)

I'm pretty sure that hill farmers don't earn much in income on average and don't get huge amounts in subsidies either. This article from a couple of years ago infers that hill farmers have some of the lowest incomes in the country http://www.thewestmorlandgazette.co....ing_subsidies/ . That said a lot of farmers wealth is in the capital value of what they own rather than the income derived but, all the same, its a hard life I'm sure. And regardless of farmers wealth trashing their walls and fences is vandalism whatever way you look at it.

You'd be surprised, very surprised!! what hill farmers get. Poor land is what pays best these days!! they are squabling over it in these parts because of it. There is a farmer 5 miles from where I live who pleads poverty!!! and does F.all most of the time................found out through www.----------------.org he has recieved in subsidys since 2001.........................drum role....................£765,245. That's subsidys!! not to mention income generated through the farm. They all plead poverty and it's very tiring to hear, especially when you see them in their 11 plate 4x4 and know they are able to claim full family tax credits.

Still, no excuse to do any damage to the countryside:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by gafrymynydd

You'd be surprised, very surprised!! what hill farmers get. Poor land is what pays best these days!! they are squabling over it in these parts because of it. There is a farmer 5 miles from where I live who pleads poverty!!! and does F.all most of the time................found out through www.----------------.org he has recieved in subsidys since 2001.........................drum role....................£765,245. That's subsidys!! not to mention income generated through the farm. They all plead poverty and it's very tiring to hear, especially when you see them in their 11 plate 4x4 and know they are able to claim full family tax credits.

Still, no excuse to do any damage to the countryside:)

---

if we didn't get permisson to run the race on farmers land half the race fixtures wouln't exist!

I know that.
three of the races here in N.wales go on my family's land (uncle and cousin) and they have no objection or problem with the races.

I just commented on the quote "hard pressed farmers" quote.

hahaha!! dont take offence..........they dont when i take the piss out of them, it's their luck and that's it :-) they know the score.........better than we do anyway :-)

There's no guarantee of the condition of a wall/fence/gate. Likewise, there will never be a consensus on whether queuing or jumping/climbing a boundary is fair and/or in the spirit of the event.
At present, we have clear instructions as codramble says but of course, in the heat of competition, who ever carries the full rule book in their head.
Mr Brightside thinks it is fair to steal an advantage on others who may be queuing and others will say this is cheating or unspirited.

RO's can do a lot to take the heat of of this by using routes that avoid such obstructions early on but of course, this is not always possible. So what to do?
It's a tough one I think.

Are these transgressors the same BMW drivers who speeed past a queue of traffic and then dive in at the last moment when a lane is closed on the motorway?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bigfella

Are these transgressors the same BMW drivers who speeed past a queue of traffic and then dive in at the last moment when a lane is closed on the motorway?

---

Probably. Or the ones that need to weave in and out of traffic at 100mph even in poor weather conditions.

Mind you, don't get me started on the "I can only drive in the middle lane because I'm too scared to use either of the others" or the psychic drivers that don't need to use their indicators because they are broadcasting their movements with their thoughts.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bigfella

Are these transgressors the same BMW drivers who speeed past a queue of traffic and then dive in at the last moment when a lane is closed on the motorway?

---

I've not seem many BMWs at fell races :sneaky:

If some one can run fast enough and have enough spring in their step to hurdle a wall or fence then they should run faster and get to the stile earlier.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bigfella

Are these transgressors the same BMW drivers who speeed past a queue of traffic and then dive in at the last moment when a lane is closed on the motorway?

---

I see this a lot at the bottom of the M6 where it joins the M1/A14 - the trouble is if you do not let them in there will be an accident - the HGVs are thundering past just a few feet away ..... in fell races I have seen the occasional bit of queue barging and quite a lot of wall climbing but short of taking their number - which I have not done and it may not be visible anyway - what do you do? I did point out to one chap at Y3Ps that I had arrived at the end of the queue before him ..... you would think I had accused him of eating a baby!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike T

I see this a lot at the bottom of the M6 where it joins the M1/A14 - the trouble is if you do not let them in there will be an accident - the HGVs are thundering past just a few feet away ..... in fell races I have seen the occasional bit of queue barging and quite a lot of wall climbing but short of taking their number - which I have not done and it may not be visible anyway - what do you do? I did point out to one chap at Y3Ps that I had arrived at the end of the queue before him ..... you would think I had accused him of eating a baby!

---

I seem to recall a report a few years ago (it was probably in the Sunday Sport rather than in the Fellrunner though) about a ‘BMW driver eating a baby’, but I can’t remember if he/she was a fell-runner as well, and if so, whether an elite or a mere mortal....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bigfella

Are these transgressors the same BMW drivers who speeed past a queue of traffic and then dive in at the last moment when a lane is closed on the motorway?

---

do you actually mean the drivers that use the available lanes and filter into traffic as the signage indicates rather than joining a queue as soon as they see one and creating unnecessary tail-backs? I am not a BMW driver nor do I push in at stiles or jump fences/walls.

Well for us that languish in the back half of the field stiles tend to go like this " after you.. no please" As for unwritten rules; on an out and back we at the back must distinctly give way to a descender by making an obvious change of course, you fast folk say thanks in return. But the big one that mists me up, is from Rob Hope; who when asked who he respected in fell running replied: "anyone who crosses the start line". (miss quote but I've conveyed the essence-GB interview in Fellrunner)

I would admit to jumping a wall or two now and again, but I don't usually make a huge gain from it, it's more a case of keeping my momentum going. I wouldn't normally bypass a long queue by climbing a wall, unless the queue was simply a queue to the easiest bit of wall to climb. Some races have walls to climb as part of the course anyway. Like Cracoe

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superflyguy

do you actually mean the drivers that use the available lanes and filter into traffic as the signage indicates rather than joining a queue as soon as they see one and creating unnecessary tail-backs? I am not a BMW driver nor do I push in at stiles or jump fences/walls.

---

It's a similiar situation, queueing is a pecular British thing, it seems to be be the done thing to join an orderly queue as soon as one forms. Continentals seem to prefer a melee as you see at many ski lift stations. I'm not sure either is right or wrong but mixing the two approaches doesn't seem to work very fairly. I agree about the motorway merging and if everyone played by that rule it would work well although I'm not sure it's really any quicker overall.

Well, I'm glad my foot in mouth red herring of "hard-pressed farmers " has been forgotten in favour of the BMWs!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by codramble

Well, I'm glad my foot in mouth red herring of "hard-pressed farmers " has been forgotten in favour of the BMWs!

---

Hahahha!! not forgotten..............lets just say the volume on the subject has ben turned down to avoid serious embarassment on the self proclaimed "poverty struck" farmers.

Still no excuse to damage the countryside's boundries.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

If some one can run fast enough and have enough spring in their step to hurdle a wall or fence then they should run faster and get to the stile earlier.

---

Interestingly the RO who had such a go at me for saying I disagreed with shortening the Peris, yet understood, jumped a fence runners were specifically requested not to cross by the RO in the Siabod race.... his argument, as a 60 year old, was he never touched the fence... he cleanly vaulted it... clearly more specific instructions are needed for some.... and some people can be hypocrits..

I do agree with you..

Anyway I only know one person who cleanly jumps fences and they have legs like a giraffe are mid 20's and very athletic... in fact two.. I was once racing Tim Higginbottom downhill in the Aran M race... every fence I hopped the stile and he just strode over the fence... gaining 2-3 yards at a time.. bloody long legs! :-)

I had been practising my fence vaults over the pedestrian barriers on the ring road around Derby on quiet mornings. About 2 weeks ago I mis-judge the kerb height. I shall no longer be practising fence vaults. They have disappeared from my fell running repertoire (temporarily?)
Regarding manners - On Sunday I ran a Dark and White mini-mm round the peak and said hello to runners in the opposite direction or as I was passing. It is amazing how many rude people didn't even grunt an acknowledgement... obviously in the 'zone' - or roadies?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by felltrumpet

I had been practising my fence vaults over the pedestrian barriers on the ring road around Derby on quiet mornings. About 2 weeks ago I mis-judge the kerb height. I shall no longer be practising fence vaults. They have disappeared from my fell running repertoire (temporarily?)
Regarding manners - On Sunday I ran a Dark and White mini-mm round the peak and said hello to runners in the opposite direction or as I was passing. It is amazing how many rude people didn't even grunt an acknowledgement... obviously in the 'zone' - or roadies?

---

Depends, I'll sometimes say hello, but there are times when you are just hanging on in there and even grunting is too much. In the MMM's I never take them that seriously, and you are never really running full eye balls out, so would normally say hi..

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by superflyguy

do you actually mean the drivers that use the available lanes and filter into traffic as the signage indicates rather than joining a queue as soon as they see one and creating unnecessary tail-backs? I am not a BMW driver nor do I push in at stiles or jump fences/walls.

---

Other people have to break to let them in causing a domino effect behind them causing a longer queue so that people join queue at the last minute so other people have to break to let them in causing a domino effect behind them causing a longer queue so that people join queue at the last minute......

In China they make 6 lanes out of a 4-lane highway to push to the front and push in, then lean on their horns to warn the cars behind to let them in because their journey is the most important. Imagine if that mentality were universal in fell racing. It'd be carnage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry

Other people have to break to let them in causing a domino effect behind them causing a longer queue so that people join queue at the last minute so other people have to break to let them in causing a domino effect behind them causing a longer queue so that people join queue at the last minute......

---

If they drove 'properly' and were aware that the lane on the left was actaully supposed to be filtering there would be no need to brake as their speed would be regulated to allow a gap for the incoming car. Instead you get the hilarious situation where people are so busy accelerating to close a gap and giving me the finger that they nearly crash into the car in front. moronic, but funny! :w00t:

thats my last on this or i'll have to start a new thread with a pole!

Hmmm....stile queue hopping. At the Lakeland 50 I did pass the said stile queue's. I climbed a gate, at the hinge side, I didn't, and don't feel bad about it. It seems to me acceptable to climb a gate in this manner and therefore avoid a build up of traffic at the blockage!! I don't think I'd climb a stone wall or fence tho!!:o

Oh!!..and I was one of the people dq'ed for not carrying kit by Sam Ayres. I was indeed a bad boy that day and didnt complain. It was a fair cop!! I was a lazy arse and couldnt be bothered walking the 20 yards to my car for my map!! :o

Now't to brag about.
Queue jumping is not polite and failing to carry correct kit is down right stupid.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by that_fjell_guy

Hmmm....stile queue hopping. At the Lakeland 50 I did pass the said stile queue's. I climbed a gate, at the hinge side, I didn't, and don't feel bad about it. It seems to me acceptable to climb a gate in this manner and therefore avoid a build up of traffic at the blockage!! I don't think I'd climb a stone wall or fence tho!!:o

---

Cheating,unsportsmanlike,unpolite etc etc , take your pick. People who don't follow the very few rules or abide by the unwritten rules of etiquette should stay at home

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by that_fjell_guy

Hmmm....stile queue hopping. At the Lakeland 50 I did pass the said stile queue's. I climbed a gate, at the hinge side, I didn't, and don't feel bad about it. It seems to me acceptable to climb a gate in this manner and therefore avoid a build up of traffic at the blockage!! I don't think I'd climb a stone wall or fence tho!!:o

---

that's just plain arrogant and stupid, also because you couldn't be bothered to get your kit you not only endanger yourself but others around you, i would think this sport would be far better off without you!!!!!!!!

PRAT!

That all seems extremely harsh! I was only stating in the case of the Grisedale Race what I'd foolishly done. You're not telling me that on at least one occasion others havent erred in this, or a similar way or are we all so perfect in our preperation!!

The point with the Lakeland 50 is that, to my knowledge there is no written rule reference climbing gates, which is, again, to my knowledge, acceptable in the countryside should I be walking. If I'm taking part in a race I'm quite happy to wait my turn if no obvious alternate is available, which I also did on several occasions. This is a race after all.

I have been fell running for over 25 years in North York Moors, Dales, Lakes and Scotland and I've never been, until now, been made privvy to this unwritten rule re: 'queue jumping'. To call me arrogant and/or rude on the basis of my comments is, as I say. harsh in the extreme. Stupid, re: Grisedale I probably accept.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by that_fjell_guy

That all seems extremely harsh! I was only stating in the case of the Grisedale Race what I'd foolishly done. You're not telling me that on at least one occasion others havent erred in this, or a similar way or are we all so perfect in our preperation!!

The point with the Lakeland 50 is that, to my knowledge there is no written rule reference climbing gates, which is, again, to my knowledge, acceptable in the countryside should I be walking. If I'm taking part in a race I'm quite happy to wait my turn if no obvious alternate is available, which I also did on several occasions. This is a race after all.

I have been fell running for over 25 years in North York Moors, Dales, Lakes and Scotland and I've never been, until now, been made privvy to this unwritten rule re: 'queue jumping'. To call me arrogant and/or rude on the basis of my comments is, as I say. harsh in the extreme. Stupid, re: Grisedale I probably accept.

---

It's often unwise to mention things like that on here, you won't find a lot of understanding. To save you kicking the hornet's nest again here is a list of other things never to mention...

Asking for results
Asking about the definition of 'full body cover'
If you like to drive fast, keep that to yourself

Cheers MrB. I'll bear that in mind!!

I thought you took a bit of an unfair beating there, too...
We've all done daft things which with hindsight we wouldn't do again, either running or in some other sphere of life. To admit it and move on is a commendable thing, surely..?

The forum is odd. It seems quite a harsh place and I find it hard to reconcile the attitude here with the lovely people I meet at races and on the fells.

Its not odd, just a different venue which allows some to express how they really feel rather than keep it under a cloak of british reserve. I suspect that if 20 queuing runners watched someone get ahead of them by jumping a fence, none of them would say anything but nearly all would be thinking 'prat' or 'cheat' or whatever. Put those same 20 on the forum and I bet nearly all of them would, from the safety of their keyboard, give vent to those thoughts. And yes, most of them would be lovely people!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Henry Porter

The forum is odd. It seems quite a harsh place and I find it hard to reconcile the attitude here with the lovely people I meet at races and on the fells.

---

F*** off then.




Just kidding :)

I agree actually, lot's of negativity at times. I blame the tories

One unwritten fell running rule is “Do not post anything controversial on thisforum”.

ActuallyI should not have written the above rule as it breaks its own rule and is therefore no longer an unwritten rule of fell running :confused: