Kiss of life?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anthonykay

For example, I think it was write to ban . . .

---

Aaaaarghhhh! The sort of illiteracy that makes me smirk when I see others committing it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anthonykay

The rest of us don't need to know the identities of everyone on the Forum.

...I think it was write to ban Oracle, who seemed incapable of making any political point without going into a rant, and definitely soured the atmosphere.

---

I think the question that should be asked is why you would NOT want people to know who you are and I suggest there are few acceptable reasons that are not mischievous or malevolent, although I defer to Mossdog.

I had quite a lot of interesting PM exchanges with Oracle including on why he chose to keep his identity secret, although he said that I did actually know who he was and we had met!

Nevertheless, he had to go.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by anthonykay

Aaaaarghhhh! The sort of illiteracy that makes me smirk when I see others committing it.

---

Do not think that some of us did not notice.:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Graham Breeze

I think the question that should be asked is why you would NOT want people to know who you are and I suggest there are few acceptable reasons that are not mischievous or malevolent, although I defer to Mossdog.

---

Well the forum is completely open for anyone to view. I think there are probably still some people who just like to live a private life without having their lives easily viewed by all and sundry on the internet. Nothing mischeavious at all, some people are just more private. Simple.

There are also many levels of personal safety to consider. These days it could be relatively easy to find out where someone lives, given their real name etc. If person X says that they will be doing a particular race on a given day, then they have effectively broadcast to the world that their home will be empty and all their Walshes* easily stolen.

Marco has outlined some of the more serious reasons why a reasonable person may not want to broadcast their identity.

*minus the pair being used for the race. :)

I specially agree with point 4, which would see me out of here. I gave up my FRA membership a few years back when I thought the fell runners association had finally morphed into the fell racers association. As I barely ever raced it seemed pointless to continue with membership and I haven't missed it in the slightest.
Much as I enjoy poking about in this forum (as an independent fell jogger) I will know when I am no longer wanted - Moley no mates 🙁.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by PiesAreGood

Well the forum is completely open for anyone to view. I think there are probably still some people who just like to live a private life without having their lives easily viewed by all and sundry on the internet. Nothing mischeavious at all, some people are just more private. Simple.

There are also many levels of personal safety to consider. These days it could be relatively easy to find out where someone lives, given their real name etc. If person X says that they will be doing a particular race on a given day, then they have effectively broadcast to the world that their home will be empty and all their Walshes* easily stolen.

Marco has outlined some of the more serious reasons why a reasonable person may not want to broadcast their identity.

*minus the pair being used for the race. :)

---

Agree with this, feels very old skool to insist on peoples identity being known to all and sundry (including a picture!). I think this would put more people off than it would attract.

In that case, this forum must be pre-old skool...very few users ever used their name and/or a pic. T'was never an issue.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by molehill

I specially agree with point 4, which would see me out of here.

---

You say that, but once we're able to upload pictures, it will be worth the membership fee for that alone. ;)

But seriously, don't you miss the fellrunner mag? It's very nice these days, better paper and more likely to look at home on a coffee table.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

Marco I see your point how would you suggest we proceed. would you like to send a suggestion to the committee.

---

Ian, having been out all day I have had time to think of something else which is worthy of discussion

Whilst all the noise has been about identity, there is a part of members details that I think, and at least hope, we can all agree on.

I am talking about 'Location'. Whilst I'm not sure it's the best word, (but I can't think of a better one), that is not my point. What I wish to raise, is that 1) some members leave this blank. 2) Some members put something humorous or accurate-but-not-that-helpful like 'near the dark stuff' 3) Some members, particularly our Welsh members, put their city/town/village, and 4) some people put a general location. I have put 'Flat SE Staffordshire' to identify the roughly 30 square mile area to the north east of Birmingham, and Mossdog has put Teesdale.

My suggestion is that all members should set a location using either the third or fourth option. I can't see any obvious reason why people wouldn't want to use at least the fourth option, although if anyone can come up with a reason please bring it up.

I think this would make the forum friendlier, and more useful, without being controversial. It would also not require an alteration to the forum, and we could do it tomorrow by a voluntary agreement.

I said I thought it would make the forum friendlier and more useful for some clear reasons, car sharing being the obvious one. But there's more. If a prospective member is living in Oldham, and they converse with someone who is from Rochdale, they could go running and training together.

When I moved into fell I was, like Travs, living to the east of Birmingham in the flatlands. Although, (also like Travs), I was a club runner there was no fell culture, knowledge, or known-to-me runners in the area. Running, alone, on the equivalent of CM or CL courses around Cannock Chase didn't really give me much idea as to whether I'd be any good, (or even get around the course). If I had been able to run with a fell runner, even if they were a different level of talent to me, then I think I might have come to the sport earlier.

This leads onto another point, that I'm not sure I've ever seen here before: mentoring. I am not suggesting any organised scheme or anything like that. I think that where there are cases of a novice/inexperienced runner living close to an experienced one, then if reasonably accurate locations were used then some of this would happen naturally. My fell experience is not as great as most people on here, but the people I have met have been warm and friendly, and helpful.

If we wish to attract new members then we have to think about what information they need. The ability to make 'friends' online is not difficult, but the ability to meet people 'in the flesh' is something that is more difficult. Llani Boy has mentioned where his group meet; I don't think he's actually said 'everyone welcome', but I'm sure that is what he meant. If people mentioned where their club's runs met, and when, on here then it would attract some more people into the sport (it was what I was looking for 12.5 years ago). It's a win-win too, it would attract some more members to clubs, and consequently some of them would join the FRA too. Best thing, though, is that it wouldn't cost anything just a bit of time and thought

Sorry it's turned into a book, thanks for getting this far

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by molehill

I specially agree with point 4, which would see me out of here. I gave up my FRA membership a few years back when I thought the fell runners association had finally morphed into the fell racers association. As I barely ever raced it seemed pointless to continue with membership and I haven't missed it in the slightest.
Much as I enjoy poking about in this forum (as an independent fell jogger) I will know when I am no longer wanted - Moley no mates ��.

---

I really enjoy your contributions on here, your knowledge of obscure parts of Wales and your support of the Dragons back. I lurked on here for years before I finally bit the bullit and payed up.
Please don't go (in the words of a song)

Marco, Do you fell race? Though some of your points are relevant you are becoming a bit dominant in this debate??

Marco it's very generous of you to reference me in your last post...!

However, there is a slight inaccuracy.... i was never a "club runner" before joining the wacky world of fellracing (although i was already sub-40 for 10km on the road, so could be termed as a "vaguely reasonable runner!")

I actually joined Dark Peak around the time i entered my first fell race. But eventually came to realise that i needed to join a local club in order to improve and progress... hence transferring to Cov Godiva and becoming a "club runner" a good 18 months after i started fellracing.

I would say that my entry into fellrunning/racing was through my fellwalking background rather than athletics.

Sorry to pick you up on that minor point... :D

And i am just about to edit my location to reflect my "dual nationality..."

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MattPo

Marco, Do you fell race? Though some of your points are relevant you are becoming a bit dominant in this debate??

---

I seem to remember Marco explaining that his body would no longer tolerate being abused by fell-racing; and there are others in that situation on this Forum (Wheeze, and now IanDarkpeak, and I'm wondering how long I will last). But the Forum should be for anyone interested in the sport, even if they are unable to participate.

Actually, I am more surprised by Moley's confession that he is no longer a FRA member. I ran no FRA races between 1996 and 2013 inclusive, but still retained my FRA membership as a token of my continued interest in the sport.

It all sounds very serious and unfathomable to me.

I think it's time for a totally new forum.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by millipede

It all sounds very serious and unfathomable to me.

I think it's time for a totally new forum.

---

Well, whoever you are Millipede :D, I believe you are correct.

I suggest the FRA should develop a forum that its 8000+ members want, rather than perpetuate with a tired formula to which its members are indifferent.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MattPo

I really enjoy your contributions on here, your knowledge of obscure parts of Wales and your support of the Dragons back. I lurked on here for years before I finally bit the bullit and payed up.
Please don't go (in the words of a song)

---

I'm not gone yet and won't be until kicked out one day if things change. I'm a member of other forums (not running related) which are all clubs and closed to non members, it is no big deal. I was an FRA member for many, many years but just a few years back decided I was getting nothing much from it, I barely race and found the magazine had little in it for me, so I stopped.
I still consider myself a fell runner, though jogging and walking is more accurate now and I enjoy my time alone on the hills of Wales as much as I ever did; love it, but don't need to be an FRA member anymore to appreciate those things.
When I go, I go, I would miss the forum but plenty of Emperors with new cloths to fill my space.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Graham Breeze

Well, whoever you are Millipede :D, I believe you are correct.

I suggest the FRA should develop a forum that its 8000+ members want, rather than perpetuate with a tired formula to which its members are indifferent.

---

This absolutely nails it Graham. And unfortunately I’m not sure asking the remnants of this forum how best to go about things is a worthwhile starting point

You'll probably find that the vast majority of the 8000 couldn't give a hoot about a forum, new or otherwise. Not sure that means it should just be binned off though.

There also seems to be a bit of a contradiction to me, of asking everybody on the forum to be an FRA member, but yet wanting to encourage potential new fellrunners to visit the forum... if they can't access all the info then what incentive is there for them to even consider looking at the forum?

The "two-tier" option of needing to be an FRA member to access the full forum is an option... but i'm not sure this is going to be much incentive to new runners to either join the FRA or the forum.

Not to mention people like Molehill who are great contributors, yet for a variety of valid reasons (be they personal, political, whatever) chose not to be an FRA member.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Graham Breeze

Times have changed since the first Forum.

I now think:

1. A Forum should be a robust, vibrant and useful aspect of the FRA, given improved functionality. It should not be beyond the wit of fellrunners to make one work, if they so wish.

2. It is unacceptable that the Forum Master (on behalf of the FRA) does not know the identity of every contributor. The FRA is a Governing Body and not some sleazy private laddish club. People who go to great lengths to hide themselves are not pure of heart.

3. Every poster should be readily identifiable to all viewers except where they make a special plea to the Forum Master that is accepted. That bar should be set high.

4. Only FRA members should be allowed to post. Let facebook be the home for uninformed dross.

5. The lauded Forum "valuable historical data" is rather like motherhood and apple pie but if it is truly valued it is not because of like/dislike "buttons, bells and whistles" and they should have no place.

---

Mostly Agree Graham. except 4, We should be welcoming to any one. I could live with 2 tier system though

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marco

Ian, having been out all day I have had time to think of something else which is worthy of discussion


I said I thought it would make the forum friendlier and more useful for some clear reasons, car sharing being the obvious one. But there's more. If a prospective member is living in Oldham, and they converse with someone who is from Rochdale, they could go running and training together.

When I moved into fell I was, like Travs, living to the east of Birmingham in the flatlands. Although, (also like Travs), I was a club runner there was no fell culture, knowledge, or known-to-me runners in the area. Running, alone, on the equivalent of CM or CL courses around Cannock Chase didn't really give me much idea as to whether I'd be any good, (or even get around the course). If I had been able to run with a fell runner, even if they were a different level of talent to me, then I think I might have come to the sport earlier.

This leads onto another point, that I'm not sure I've ever seen here before: mentoring. I am not suggesting any organised scheme or anything like that. I think that where there are cases of a novice/inexperienced runner living close to an experienced one, then if reasonably accurate locations were used then some of this would happen naturally. My fell experience is not as great as most people on here, but the people I have met have been warm and friendly, and helpful.

If we wish to attract new members then we have to think about what information they need. The ability to make 'friends' online is not difficult, but the ability to meet people 'in the flesh' is something that is more difficult. Llani Boy has mentioned where his group meet; I don't think he's actually said 'everyone welcome', but I'm sure that is what he meant. If people mentioned where their club's runs met, and when, on here then it would attract some more people into the sport (it was what I was looking for 12.5 years ago). It's a win-win too, it would attract some more members to clubs, and consequently some of them would join the FRA too. Best thing, though, is that it wouldn't cost anything just a bit of time and thought

Sorry it's turned into a book, thanks for getting this far

---

We could start (if there isn't already one ) a carshare thread..makes sense to me.
The mentor idea did happen. We used to have forumite meets where you could share knowledge of routes, I remember offering to show some of my line on the Edale Skyline, I think 20+ runners and 2 dogs turned up. We did an epic HPM in winter..there was the Forumite xmas in the fells(thread), Many a BG reccie was organised, DazH,Marvin,Amex,Stanners,Sweep,Manhar,Mrs Stagger,EmmyLou,The navigator,Merrylegs,Big Compass+ a cast of thousands etc all became friends, I've run mountain and hill courses for years. With the FRA and from my own company.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Travs

You'll probably find that the vast majority of the 8000 couldn't give a hoot about a forum, new or otherwise. Not sure that means it should just be binned off though.

There also seems to be a bit of a contradiction to me, of asking everybody on the forum to be an FRA member, but yet wanting to encourage potential new fellrunners to visit the forum... if they can't access all the info then what incentive is there for them to even consider looking at the forum?

The "two-tier" option of needing to be an FRA member to access the full forum is an option... but i'm not sure this is going to be much incentive to new runners to either join the FRA or the forum.

Not to mention people like Molehill who are great contributors, yet for a variety of valid reasons (be they personal, political, whatever) chose not to be an FRA member.

---

Open to all but with restrictions is I think the logical way to go..

I met a few forumites over the years, purely through this forum and have stayed friends with them. Dominion came and stayed at our house once for a mountain biking event - he drank all my best wine in an evening 🍷, god knows how he rode the next day.
Many a friendship was forged on here and I hope many more are with future generations of fell runners.

Einstein said that in order to make progress, someone somewhere has to give up a long held and sacred tenet. He was referring to the sticky task of resolving the differences between classical and quantum mechanics, but the principle will be valid for this forum transition. The most important thing to me is that the working group secures the future of the forum, and to do that sacrifices will have to be made.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by molehill

Dominion came and stayed at our house once for a mountain biking event - he drank all my best wine in an evening 🍷

---

all?

Clearly you had not laid down enough cases.:confused:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mr brightside

Einstein said that in order to make progress, someone somewhere has to give up a long held and sacred tenet. He was referring to the sticky task of resolving the differences between classical and quantum mechanics, but the principle will be valid for this forum transition. The most important thing to me is that the working group secures the future of the forum, and to do that sacrifices will have to be made.

---

I am happy to agree with someone who defers to Einstein.

You only have one chance for major change so the biggest risk to achieving real change is compromise, sticking with what is comfortable.

When those who are involved in change processes are asked what they would have done differently, they often say that they regret not going faster and further ie not being radical enough.

Consider The Fellrunner. The changes made in 2019 were, arguably, the most fundamental since 1987. They went too far and there have since been some revisions but the marvellous Fellrunner we enjoy today simply would not have come about by steady incremental changes.

And, as Charmian has said, the FRA now has more members than ever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Graham Breeze

all?

Clearly you had not laid down enough cases.:confused:

---

Our butler had the evening off and I don't know my way around our wine cellar, weekend staff shortages.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by molehill

I met a few forumites over the years, purely through this forum and have stayed friends with them. Dominion came and stayed at our house once for a mountain biking event - he drank all my best wine in an evening 🍷, god knows how he rode the next day.
Many a friendship was forged on here and I hope many more are with future generations of fell runners.

---

Not enough information. What bottles did he drink - we need to know - Petrus? Grange?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mike T

Not enough information. What bottles did he drink - we need to know - Petrus? Grange?

---

For the record: I have drunk Petrus.:D

I kept the bottle for a while in case of doubters!

It was...mmmh...special

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Graham Breeze

For the record: I have drunk Petrus.:D

I kept the bottle for a while in case of doubters!

It was...mmmh...special

---

Be thankful Dominion wasn't stopping over at yours that evening.
Did you win the Petrus as a V70 prize in a fell race? Now there's a way to improve race attendances!

Well I'm ashamed to admit it but I'm pretty sure I was unaware that the FRA existed until discovering the forum and then I lurked as a guest for ages before actually signing up. The forum is arguably of most use to those new to fellrunning? So I think it should be open for anyone to view at least.

As for the identity thing; I don't have a problem with it one way or the other (Ian Haigh, Southwell RC, live in the Peak District) Most people on Facebook use their real identities and it hasn't prevented inappropriate comments, trolls etc., so really what difference would it make? Even if we did know everyone's identity how would that information be useful to the FRA or anyone else?

I've thought for many years that a like button would be a useful addition because as a poster it's difficult to really know if what you post is actually appreciated. Some posts get no replies at all and this doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't deemed worthwhile or is not appreciated but the poster never actually knows this or if anyone has even bothered to read it.

Conversely some posts get lots of replies but are not necessarily appreciated. I can think of a number of threads on here in years gone by which have rambled on for evermore with lengthy controversial arguments which some forumites have found dreadfully boring and tedious but these get the same lack of appreciation/unappreciation. Then as these threads get lots of response it could be taken to mean that the majority of the forum actually like this sort of thing and encourage yet more rambling bollox.

At one point in time it appeared to me that these safety & political discussions/arguments/rants were becoming the main focus of the forum while threads related to racing, running routes and training practically disappeared. A like button would at least show what forumites actually want to see and read.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by molehill

Be thankful Dominion wasn't stopping over at yours that evening.
Did you win the Petrus as a V70 prize in a fell race? Now there's a way to improve race attendances!

---

Ha ha!

Although I have won several bottles of champagne and whiskey.

But today at Shepherd's Skyline it was Ringwood Brewery Razor Back - they all count!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Graham Breeze

Times have changed since the first Forum.

I now think:


2. It is unacceptable that the Forum Master (on behalf of the FRA) does not know the identity of every contributor. The FRA is a Governing Body and not some sleazy private laddish club. People who go to great lengths to hide themselves are not pure of heart.

---

I think this needs a meme. Shame we can't post them ....

Who said "sock puppets"??!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by millipede

I think this needs a meme. Shame we can't post them ....

---

Ah but on Forum Mark 11...:D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by fellgazelle

Well I'm ashamed to admit it but I'm pretty sure I was unaware that the FRA existed until discovering the forum and then I lurked as a guest for ages before actually signing up. The forum is arguably of most use to those new to fellrunning? So I think it should be open for anyone to view at least.

As for the identity thing; I don't have a problem with it one way or the other (Ian Haigh, Southwell RC, live in the Peak District) Most people on Facebook use their real identities and it hasn't prevented inappropriate comments, trolls etc., so really what difference would it make? Even if we did know everyone's identity how would that information be useful to the FRA or anyone else?

I've thought for many years that a like button would be a useful addition because as a poster it's difficult to really know if what you post is actually appreciated. Some posts get no replies at all and this doesn't necessarily mean that it isn't deemed worthwhile or is not appreciated but the poster never actually knows this or if anyone has even bothered to read it.

Conversely some posts get lots of replies but are not necessarily appreciated. I can think of a number of threads on here in years gone by which have rambled on for evermore with lengthy controversial arguments which some forumites have found dreadfully boring and tedious but these get the same lack of appreciation/unappreciation. Then as these threads get lots of response it could be taken to mean that the majority of the forum actually like this sort of thing and encourage yet more rambling bollox.

At one point in time it appeared to me that these safety & political discussions/arguments/rants were becoming the main focus of the forum while threads related to racing, running routes and training practically disappeared. A like button would at least show what forumites actually want to see and read.

---

Like 👍

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wheeze

Who said "sock puppets"??!

---

Always loved a sock puppet.

My I phone corrects to sick puppet. :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by millipede

Always loved a sock puppet.

---

Juvenile entertainment?...but still fun!😀

But they can be used for very bad purposes (by not nice people) so I can see why they are seen as a problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by millipede

My I phone corrects to sick puppet. :D

---

Sick parrot? But at least it isn't dead.

Just resting!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Graham Breeze

I am happy to agree with someone who defers to Einstein.

You only have one chance for major change so the biggest risk to achieving real change is compromise, sticking with what is comfortable.

---

Do you see a distinction between refusal to compromise and extremism? It would be disappointing to end up with 'Cathedra mae regulae maea'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mr brightside

Do you see a distinction between refusal to compromise and extremism? It would be disappointing to end up with 'Cathedra mae regulae maea'.

---

I once worked alongside a business consultant (a consultant to McKinseys) who was challenged in public by an extremely senior manager in my employers that to achieve a certain proposed outcome would "require a huge intellectual leap of imagination".

The consultant replied "Yes. And I am capable of it".

I have similar confidence in the FRA Committee.