Such a purist.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
You'll be telling me Wiggins really must have had asthma next.:(
(Actually I agree - and what's all that about changing your helmet Thomas!)
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Such a purist.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
You'll be telling me Wiggins really must have had asthma next.:(
(Actually I agree - and what's all that about changing your helmet Thomas!)
Shout out for Cav winning the last stage. It should give him a lot of confidence for the rest of his season.
I have to disagree with both Graham and Marco :D
I don't think an Evanpoel win would have been on the cards. The overall route suited him, but I still think he might have found some of the steeper inclines challenging and had an off day or two along the way.
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the Tec.
On the Friday, it was notable to me that Roglic picked up his TT prepped bike for the final climb and Thomas seemed to have plenty in hand with a few hundred metres to go and gapped Roglic, only to be pipped on the line.
200m out that didn't seem likely.
Thomas didn't seem to tie up, but the gearing seemed to help Roglic put in a final push.
It also seemed to help in the final few km on the TT. Thomas was still 2nd quickest. He didn't capitulate.
Ineos have been technically in front over the years and clearly Roglic is a very good cyclist and climber, but the time gap on Saturday was extensive to all the main rivals, compared to what we had seen during the previous days, so I think the technical setup won the day from him and Jumbo-Visma.
What is the race about? It's the rider, hopefully the best winning, but it's also about team, about tactics, mental strength and technical decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
I agree it looks odd watching, but they can all do the same within the rules set out.
What won the Giro in my opinion, was the gearing decision by Team Roglic for that final TT which I think may have also helped him by a similar amount on the Friday.
He swapped his bike before the last climb and he wouldn't have done that unless he felt it would hep him.
Maybe it gave him as much as 2 minutes in tow days over his rivals.
Mmmh. Well life is short but it would be interesting to see a graph with two curves for each showing exactly what gearing Roglic and Thomas were pushing up the final section of the TT with their speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Roglic was running a 40 chain ring with a 44 dinner plate on the rear. Nuts but you can't argue with the result. No idea on G but I'm sure it's only a Google away
Allegedly Thomas is blaming (as in I'm not blaming but I am mentioning it...) bicarbonate of soda.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
Well I hope that didn't arrive in a Jiffy bag. Could have easily just popped into Aldi. (Graham, it's like Booths but affordable!;))Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
I've heard of various legally allowed supposedly performance enhancing substances but this is a new one on me. I just use it for baking and removal of shoe odour!
I've been trying to come up with an analogy with other sports events where an individual stage could be decided on choice of equipment but not allowed during the race. The only similarly I can think of is rallying where tyre choice before a stage is paramount especially in mixed terrain. Driver ability, car technology etc all tactics worked out in advance to deliver the fastest time. I like the simplicity and the fact it doesn't necessarily favour the team with the largest budget. Indeed, the driver needs to deliver and that's surely what bike racing is about too?
At the risk of showing my age - I still think Laurent Fignon won 3 Tours and Lemond won one less than he thinks he did.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/h...as-queen-stage
This piece explained the potential gains.
A better way of understanding this choice though, is in terms of speed and cadence.
At a cadence of 100rpm, Roglič could ride at a minimum speed of 12.8kph on this setup. Compare this to a more common lowest gear setup of 39/32, which at the same 100rpm gives a minimum speed of 15.6kph. Faster, yes, but more taxing.
On a 18% gradient, a 70kg rider —even on a UCI weight limit matching 6.8kg bike— would need to put out a sustained 600 watts to keep up that cadence and average speed.
When on standard bikes, Roglic was pretty much the same as GT and Almeida on climbs, with GT having the edge if anything.
So I'd suggest there's good evidence to say the tactical change of tec won it for him.
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
I think the two most interesting aspects of that article are:
1. the prescience that it was a rehearsal for the TT (which I think the Eurosport commentariat mentioned on the day as well)
2. that the mighty, arrogant, overweening, smug, cheating Ineos didn't then do the same. Not invented here perhaps? Or Shimano don't have the same SRAM set up.
Although on the theme of "stuck in their ways" I always thought if Ullrich has pushed a smaller gear he would have beaten twiddling, cheating Armstrong. So does Daniel Friebe in his 448 page biography The Best There Never Was.
So it must be true.
But alas Ullrich was mentally damaged from his East Germany years and only knew one way to think.
Incidentally IMHO Cycling Weekly the magazine is gushing, fawning, comedy whereas the website is far more analytical and considered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
I'm surprised you haven't heard of it, it's been around years. I believe it came from horse racing, where it's called 'milkshaking'Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
https://paulickreport.com/news/ray-s...0the%20muscles.
Last time I checked it was legal. And don't mention it to Graham, but I've tried it in my middle-distance track racing days, having read a report that Fausto Coppi used it (er, amongst other things)
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
40 x 44 is the same gear size as 34 x 38. It's a pretty standard gear size that you could buy from a bike shop this lunchtimeQuote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
A cyclist's most efficient cadence is dependant on many factors; some riders prefer to twiddle a small gear, and some like to 'grind' a large one. It is quite possible that Ullrich would not have been able to put out as much power over the duration of a 30 minute (or greater) climb using a small gear. I'm sure that the East German and Team Telekom coaches would have tried itQuote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
Much further down the talent pile, I cycle with some respectable ex-racing cyclists who will grind up the very modest local climbs whilst I use a smaller gear. And if they p*** me off, and try to race me, I have been know to drop it down two gears and put a burst of 140rpm in to drop them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
Even though they see me disappear on a much smaller gear it doesn't seem to register to them that they could do the same, so in this respect dogma is alive and well in cycling.
Does anyone here pay for the Cycling News website? Are there any catches? They will not let me look at much and I like following it.
In which case, you'll like the photo below that I took an hour agoQuote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...1b71594c_b.jpg
Whilst this car is clearly owned by a person of taste, their historical accuracy is slightly wrong :)
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...1ef28131_b.jpg
Wonderful!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
I despise vanity number plates - but since four of my five immediate neighbours display them, naturally I am (slightly) discreet - but there could be an exception.
The 159 is thirteen years old so the plate will be worth more than the car.
Many such as this one are also illegal, why is this ignored as it’s surely an easy revenue stream.
That's nothing Graham. The owner of this car likes their Italian cars, as well as cycling. Whilst photographing their Alfa, I spotted a 50 years old one parked further down the road. I didn't recognise it, as in I've never seen one like it before. If it's what I think, it's worth more than their house - and this is in Lichfield ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
I should have noted the number plate, but as I'd just photographed one of their cars it might have been a step too far.
The following extract is copyright but I post it to show the sort of writing you can read in Rouleur.
Some internal and concluding paragraphs are not included.
It comes to me via the Rouleur news site. When The Fellrunner changed its layout it copied Rouleur.
Pickering is a writer of real class. An article about the Giro that starts with Fay Weldon? Cycling Weekly it isn't.
I will delete it in a few days to avoid going to prison.
THE LONG WAIT: WAS A DRAMATIC FINALE ENOUGH TO MAKE UP FOR A QUIET THREE WEEKS OF GC RACING?
WORDS: EDWARD PICKERING
In her memoir Auto da Fay, the novelist Fay Weldon observed that the human condition tended towards ennui, punctuated by rare drama. “There seems to be a general overall pattern in most lives, that nothing happens, and nothing happens, and then all of a sudden everything happens,” she wrote.
I’m not saying that the 2023 Giro d’Italia made me think of this quote, but there was a general overall pattern for most of the race, that nothing happened, and nothing happened, and then all of a sudden everything happened. It’s hard to say whether the incessant rain and cold of the first two weeks of the event had more of a chilling effect on the race than the rather unsubtle design of the final week’s percorso, but as the exploits of entertaining rides by Derek Gee, Thibaut Pinot and a few others fade from memory, the abiding memory of the 2023 Giro will be of a long, long wait for something significant to happen. Nice stage battles; shame about the GC.
Weldon also wrote: “I long for a day of judgement when the plot lines of our lives will be neatly tied, and all puzzles explained, and the meaning of events made clear.” There was one day of judgement in the 2023 Giro and that was the penultimate stage, the mountain time trial to Monte Lussari, a hitherto obscure corner of Friuli Venezia Giulia that also happened to be one of the most beautiful settings I have ever seen in a bike race. A nice landscape can go a long way to blinding us to the fact that nothing’s changing in the GC, as the tappone to Tre Cime di Lavaredo demonstrated just 24 hours before Monte Lussari. Of course, it’s true that stage races, especially Grand Tours, are attritional – cumulative fatigue is always building, even when it looks like it isn’t, and you can argue that without everything that had gone before, quiet stages and all, we wouldn’t have had that upheaval. However, Monte Lussari both dazzled with its fairytale scenery and finally, finally gave us a bike race.
Primož Roglič’s stunning victory on Monte Lussari by 40 seconds over maglia rosa Geraint Thomas, giving him the overall win by just 14 seconds, was an irresistible and compelling story of redemption. He’d looked less strong than Thomas through the mountain stages of week three, and even the handful of seconds he did manage to squeeze out of his Welsh rival at Tre Cime di Laveredo were put down to Thomas mistiming his attack with 500m to go and fizzling out in the last 100m. And of course, the looming shape of La Planche des Belles Filles, where he’d quite spectacularly lost the 2020 Tour de France to his young compatriot Tadej Pogačar in a mountain time trial on the penultimate day, cast a long and dark shadow over the Slovenian’s preparation for Monte Lussari.
In the end, Roglič won the Giro while everybody else spent three weeks trying not to lose it. Sometimes, not losing is enough, but when you ride a Grand Tour like that, you run the risk of getting caught with your pants down, and Roglič knows that better than anybody. He rode a conservative race at the 2020 Tour, and he was so concerned with not losing it that he forgot to win it. You didn’t really think he was going to make the same mistake twice?
There was a pleasing symmetry to Roglič’s triumph at Monte Lussari, and the fact that it took place in such a beautiful setting, with such an obviously febrile atmosphere from the Slovenian crowds, went some way to rescuing the 2023 Giro. However, I’ve never bought the narrative that Roglič left a piece of his soul on La Planche des Belles Filles. He’s a more complex soul than many used to give him credit for, but his blood doesn’t run hot. Within 15 days of La Planche, he’d won Liège-Bastogne-Liège; seven weeks later he won the Vuelta a España. And for somebody who is reputed to suffer more than his share of bad luck, he gets a lot of very good results in big races – apart from 2020, he’s won at least two WorldTour stage races every season for six years now. He just hasn’t won the Tour yet, is all. For many fans, he is a tragic figure, but having observed him navigating the highs and lows of cycling life with laconic equanimity for quite a few years now, I’m not sure they didn’t feel the pain of La Planche far more than Roglič actually did.
Runner-up Geraint Thomas played Primož Roglič to Primoż Roglič’s Tadej Pogačar in this Giro. The Monte Lussari time trial knocked the stuffing out of him, though he rallied enough to lead out his old friend Mark Cavendish, who was in search of his own slice of redemption in Rome the next day. The Welshman, winner of the 2018 Tour de France, has enjoyed a late-career run of form that has seen him become one of the standout GC riders of the last couple of seasons. He was third in last year’s Tour behind Jonas Vingegaard and Pogačar, and has now finished a narrow second to Roglič in the Giro. He reflected immediately after the time trial that it was better to lose by 14 seconds than by a smaller number, but he was close enough that he may look back over the last three weeks and think a little too hard about where he could have found that time. The Slovenian faltered on Monte Bondone on stage 16, and he'd been recovering from a mid-race crash. Was that the time to twist the knife?
As with last year’s Tour, Thomas rode a very defensive race. He’s one of the strongest riders in the world, is resilient and experienced, and therefore in a tactically straightforward race, he’ll always do well if he avoids bad luck. However, Ineos Grenadiers showed a lack of daring in Italy, despite strength in numbers, that was understandable given the circumstances of the race, but also demonstrates where they now stand in the Grand Tour hierarchy, which is below UAE Emirates and Jumbo-Visma. There is considerable mitigation for Ineos in the 2023 Giro. While they finished with three in the top ten, the impressive Thymen Arensman and Laurens De Plus coming sixth and tenth, they were kneecapped by the loss of Filippo Ganna to Covid and to Pavel Sivakov and especially Tao Geoghegan Hart to crashes and injuries. With five riders, controlling the bunch had to be done cleverly, and the scope for tactical adventure was severely limited by Geoghegan Hart, who had looked the equal of Roglič and Thomas, crashing out. However, it is two years since they won a Grand Tour – no emergency yet, but that hasn’t happened since 2010-2011.
(more)
There were four main contributing factors to the general sense that the 2023 Giro took three whole weeks to come to life. The first was the weather. Low pressure pulled a blanket of cloud and chilly air over southern Europe through the middle of May, and the rain dampened any sense of adventure the peloton might have felt. Riders also reported that some of the earlier summit finishes were ridden into headwinds, which would have punished risk-taking. The second was the high attrition rate in the first half of the race from Covid and crashes – while 125 finishers is comparatively low for the Giro in modern history, the impact seemed worse because of the number of big riders who withdrew, including Remco Evenepoel, Geoghegan Hart, Aleksandr Vlasov and Filippo Ganna.
There was little subtlety, although that is not unusual in Grand Tours, and the modern trend of three-week events being won by super-elite riders representing very strong teams continued at the 2023 Giro. Of the last ten Grand Tours, nine have been won by either Jumbo, UAE, Ineos or Quick Step. Not much may have happened in the GC battle over the three weeks of the 2023 Giro. But for the smaller teams, this has been a fact of life going back much further than three weeks, with no sign of change.
(more)
Thank you, Graham. I good read.
Unfortunately I can't afford a rouleur subscription but if you could just keep posting the best bits on here, that would be great! ;)
It's very 'arty' Graham, but there's nothing that couldn't have been gleaned from reading the newspapers, or watching the five minute highlights videos on Youtube or the official Giro d'Italia website.
To be honest, I could have written such an article if I'd been asked to write 1500 words on the subject. It wouldn't have been as refined, but it would have had as much, and probably more, cycling content.
I noticed POW11ER parked in Ilkley this morning. It was on a Lamborghini Huracan V10. Well it would be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Subtly understated in bright orange and to emphasise the owner's modesty the car was lacking a front number plate. And it didn't look as though it had ever had one.
Interesting
Attachment 8911
Mmmh. We didn't notice a paid parking ticket on the dash board either.Quote:
Originally Posted by bigfella
Damn, that's where I left it
Might have to cycle over later to collect.
Not on the Cinelli (wouldn't fit in the boot) but the Brompton perhaps...
Dauphine was a bit of a procession.
Not sure if we learnt anything from it other than Vingegaard is in decent nick for the TdF and the rest will be lucky to make a podium position.
It looked a decent field, but so many fell by the wayside.
Mas 17th, Landa 22nd, Gaudu 30th, Carapaz 36th. This lot need to get in breakaways if they're going to get anything from the race.
Young Max Poole looks a prospect.
Someone died in a stage race today I heard, went up to join the guy who lost his life at the TT no doubt. I like the way the fallen comrade's fellow competition always race on; everyone knows the risk and accept it willingly, with no shows of forced grief for the hungry media or unexpected cancellations of racing. After Andy Caldecott's death on the Dakar, the year Charley Boorman did it, the riders interviewed said that in these circumstances they just say, "c'est Dakar". This to me is pure wisdom, and I take inspiration from the way that death is treated as a natural part of life.
I generally agree with the sentiment and also being a lifelong TT fan, I can see the comparison. However, the TT is at the extreme end of the scale. Most cycling crashes you could expect to survive and severe injuries and deaths are thankfully rare. With speeds of 200mph in places on what are basically A roads, death or very serious injury is practically inevitable at the TT but as you say the riders know and accept the risk. Yes cyclists do too but the risk is surely less an probably easier to accept?Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
Gino Mäder was the cyclist who lost his life as a result of his injuries on stage 5 of the Tour de Suisse. Magnus Sheffield also crashed out in the same corner of a long steep descent.
i agree that descending is an integral part of the sport and an art that only a few can master (see various Tom Pidcock videos on YouTube) but I do wonder if at times more emphasis is put on the inclusion of certain iconic and testing climbs rather than a safe way to get off them.
Some of the road surfaces, width of the road and weather make for treacherous racing with few willing to gamble to gain a few seconds. Great tele but at what cost?
That descent has been used in previous Tours.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
Interestingly:
Fury as cyclist killed at "dangerous" Swiss race
The D Telegraph 6 pictures 1 1/2 pages
Mader, 26, dies after crashing into ravine at Tour de Suisse
The Times, one picture of Mader, less than 1/4 page.
Compare and contrast?
The DT is technically bankrupt and is now owned by its bankers so is desperate for sales.
It shows.
Yes - it's not a bad descent but there have been some shockers over the years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
It seems to me undeniable that a rider will take more risks on a descent directly leading to the finish and at 100 kph if they come off they may never get up again. One notable Monument excepted I don't think RO should include fast/long/"dangerous" descents close to the finish.
It will be interesting to see what the Tour de Suisse does in future
Yes, that monument is all about that final climb and descent. (Nothing to do with the nigh 300km before hand!) Who could argue that it is not integral to the sport. The downward section is hazardous but probably not to the degree of some Alpine climbs?
You could say it was due to being near the end of the stage and I would agree that just incites those of that disposition to have a go but remember Pidcock's descent from the climb prior to Alp D'Huez?
Pidcock can descend well - for a Leeds lad - butfter the descent to Allemand there is a long flat road to Bourg d'Oisans before the climb up the Alpe. It isn't as though Pidcock had the finish in view that would tempt him to go crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
For years I holidayed in Bourg d'Oisans and rode and ran up and down the Alpe dozens of times. The last time I watched the Tour (in France) was one day in Bourg. I watched the peloton ride past and Armstrong was holding forth and I turned away and thought "I don't want to do this any more". Of course I watched the Tour when it came to Yorkshire but by then Armstrong had been exposed.
Incidentally Peter Cossins (who wrote Alpe d'Huez. Cycling's Greatest Climb)once lived in the same road as me in Ilkley - in a rather splendid house.
I agree Graham. I was not reading the DT much, so rang to cancel a few months ago when they announced around £12.99 a month subs, a large increase from a discounted rate I'd been on. I've been given a £29 a year rate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
I still don't read much, so will probably not renew. Readers letters can be the most interesting part.
I hadn't seen the Mader piece, because I tend not to check cycling news as the sport coverage online is poor.
They had a couple of pieces on the Giro, but nothing on the Dauphine and only 2 articlees on cycling so far in June.
The legacy media is pretty poor to be honest and I have tried the Times in the past and given up to that as well.
Well since I have had two letters published in the last month - I must agree.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
I best pay more attention to the readers letters page in the DT, see if I recognise any names.....
If anyone fancies I've set up a Mini-League for us on Velogames.
League Name: FRA Forum
League Code: 11375659
It's with the TdF in mind, but can also use it for other events as they come along.
https://www.velogames.com/
entry deadline of 12:30 CEST (Central European Summer Time) on Saturday 1st July 2023. That is 11:30 in the UK
I'm in. Team name is voiture balai
well the worst I can come is 2nd :DQuote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
I haven't had chance to look at it in any detail, and I don't even know who's riding - let alone what their current form is like
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