Did you boil the eggs and butter the bread ?
Did you buy the wool and the pattern?
I think the BGR is akin to religion. Some people believe it is the path to enlightenment and others think: eh?
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Did you boil the eggs and butter the bread ?
Did you buy the wool and the pattern?
I think the BGR is akin to religion. Some people believe it is the path to enlightenment and others think: eh?
Boil them? I laid them, chuck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherpa
I susbscribe to be a member of the fell running association and get the handbook etc. I receive the magazine whether I like it or not. Yes it is good I get a free glossy magazine along with the handbook, but just because it is "free" does not mean it is beyond comment - this implies whatever is in it must be good because it did not cost me much .
Yes it is fantastic that Britta and her team give their time up to do this, however she does ask for comments suggestions and feedback which I will do constructively.
One of my points was the call for more editing yes its good that people write in and even better that you can be printed even though you are not a writer, but that does mean everything is well written. I also found the content layout confusing this time but that just may be me.
I would not want to read what I would write about in Fellrunner and though it would be nice to be printed I am not sure it would be of value or add to the magazine.
I have been receiving the magazine only for about 3 years and I suppose the issue for me is I am not sure who the magazine is for, when I first got it is was a fairly informative and sometimes dry "hobby" journal" aimed at fell running, now its on its way to a glossy chatty "Hello " long distance chalenge magazine, with little process in between. Therefore i am not quite sure what i am meant to be receiving.
Yes you can't please all the people all the time, if you could this forum would close.
I agree with many of the comments and misgivings expressed on this thread. As an FRA member (and Fellrunner reader AND contributor) since 1985 I have seen the mag go through many changes.
Like others above I was also disappointed with the latest issue - there seems to be a growing tendency to move tward the "mainstream" of running with more articles on trail running etc. There were at least 25 pages in this issue that were not about fellrunning as I recognise it. I also share the general boredom with what is now well described as the Bob Graham Industry!!
I think there is interest in the everyday running expoits of our fellow fellrunners - take Stolly's Running Adventures (available on this very forum) it is just accounts of his regular runs (similar to the email reports I do for the Bowland Bat Runs etc). I think Stolly's accounts are quite widely read on here and I find them interesting. Maybe there should be more of this kind of thing in the Fellrunner? The kind of stuff that used to be in a section of the mag called "Experiences of the Run".
I also think there's room for personal accounts of the racing experience (even Burnsall!) but that also seems to be a rarity. Not sure why.
Still, as has been said, if we don't like it we had better get writing! :o
I have every issue of The Fellrunner and wrote a piece about its development a few years ago. I have had 30 articles published; some were bagatelles, some I am proud of as significant pieces of work. I enjoy writing the Profiles of the people I choose to interview.
Deeko, who knows Angela Mudge, said my recent Profile of her was a “Fantastic article” but YT described my piece as “fawning”. But as the song goes, “...learned my lesson well. You see you can't please everyone, so you've got to please yourself".
I personally read very little towards the back of the magazine-all those long distance pieces- and I just cannot read the stuff published by some regular contributors; but I know that some of these pieces are very much appreciated by others. So I don’t complain.
In a phrase, The Fellrunner is a broad church.
Once an issue has gone to print the Editor starts with blank pages. He/She relies on voluntary contributions coming in for the next issue. Yes, Britta knows there will be stuff from the usual suspects but much of the latest issue was from new sources.
So what is she to do? The Fellrunner is now running at 150 pages and is in full colour. For the last three years of Dave’s reign the magazine averaged just 100 pages and 14% of pages had colour. In effect Britta has expanded the magazine to include the additional contributions. So people who don’t like the stuff at the back can just stop reading at page 100.
In my opinion some of the contributions are badly written, but it is not the role of an unpaid Editor to start redrafting and editing contributor’s work.
I sit on the FRA Committee and the subject of The Fellrunner has recently been discussed. The FRA Committee has the highest regard for the work that Britta does. I suggest that 99% of Forum posters have little idea just how much work goes into editing the magazine.
Britta reads the Forum and she will be interested in any views expressed but as others have said she is reliant on the submissions made to her.
She cannot publish blank pages.
thats the funny thing about this forum,your all moaning bastards :D ,no one says you have to read the magazine :p
I promise not to moan about it. I just hope my copy arrives some day soon.:(Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleeter
I Completely agree with Sherpa and GrahamB.
I just think it's a bit mean spirited to publicly criticise, no matter how constructively, the efforts of someone who is a volunteer doing what must be a pretty time consuming and unpaid job. If you think they are doing something wrong or have a suggestion of how they could improve things then it is surely better and more polite to send a private mail/letter?
No matter how polite and well meaning the criticism may be, it can hurt and get under your skin and make you think "Why the hell should I bother doing this" very quickly. (It did with me once). Of course when you pack the job in, you won't find any of your erstwhile critics taking up the mantle.
If you think you can do a better job then why not keep silent for now and put yourself forward for the editor's job at the next AGM?
Maybe some people on here need to work on distinguishing between "moaning" and "comment".
To get back to the constructive debate we were having... I agree with what you say Graham and I was not criticising Britta's editorship. It may interest you to know that I was a possible contender for new editor when Dave announced he was standing down but I thought better of standing for election once Dave had explained how much work is involved!! :o
It is noticeable how the magazine (perhaps the FRA itself) is changing direction though. It is veering gradually away from my idea of 'pure' fellrunning, but perhaps I'm just a grumpy old man who lives in the past.
I remember t'good old days of A5 sized Fellrunners and Walshes wi 'hedgehog' soles.... As for you Graham, you'll probably tell me about Walsh V-ripples and call me a mere whippersnapper! :D
In 2002 the FRA had 5000 members and it had reached that level gradually over the previous decades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trundler
Since then there has been a 40% "step change" to 7000 members and it is unimaginable that that will not affect the sport & etc.
Quite so. I'm enjoying the discussion and I'm sure none of it is intended as criticism of Britta's editorship.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trundler
For what it's worth, I agree with Antisocial and Trundler in that much of the content of the latest magazine has little to do with fell running as I have known it for a good number of years but I don't have to read the articles that don't interest me and if they appeal to the majority of the FRA membership then that's fine.There's a few of us around ;).Quote:
Originally Posted by Trundler
Walsh Pennine Adders - now they really were uncomfortable on a hard surface :eek:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trundler
I'm beginning to detect a worrying similarity in our musical tastes :rolleyes:.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamB
Well... I don't like much music cut after around '62 (Garden Party was '72) but my Billboard Hot 100 books cover the territory from '55 so that's OK.Quote:
Originally Posted by david
RN isn't terribly high on my list of favourites but he had good writers and of course had the wit to hire James Burton for eight years. And only today did I discover that James played lead on Dale Hawkins Susie-Q . Now that was a record. (Checker # 863, Peaked at #27 in Billboard July 1957: 19 weeks on chart).
Life can be so rich!
Ok, i'll try and reply here before a fight breaks out ;)
All the feedback is appreciated - the more the better as it helps to gauge when i get it wrong and when i get it right. I'm pretty new to this editing malarky still and still consider myself on a learning curve and certainly not beyond reproach.
Personally i thought there was quite a wide range of articles in the last issue. I have my personal favourites too, but i couldn't just publish what i enjoy to read - we're all different and have different interests...
Some people seem to take offence at the long distance stuff, but with a feature on Angela Mudge, the article about Aly & Ali, an interview with Rob Hope, a page on Ricky Wilde, an article containing insight into the training regimes of Alister Brownlee, Andi Jones, Olivia Walwyn and many others (further down the field), articles about the relays and info on all the championship races, some race histories,... - there surely should be something to read for everyone!
The long distance stuff itself: Setting a new record for 'Everest Base Camp to Kathmandu' by fellrunners deserves a good spread, i don't care what anyone else thinks - i'd feel the same if someone had broken another famous record on the fells at home! I feel similar about John Fleetwoods achievement in that it deserves a good write up and recognition.
Some of the others may not strictly be 'fell running' but it's stories about what fellrunners got up to on their travels or at home during the winter when racing is more limited...
I've had a lot of great feedback and a lot of Thank You's which certainly are much appreciated, but as antisocial says - i did ask for comments/suggestions/input ... keep it coming (but be gentle :rolleyes: )
I'm guessing that's partly directed at me,well i know what you mean,my comments were in jest,i just find it funny how things get blown out of proportion on this forum sometimes,not on this thread but on certain othersQuote:
Originally Posted by Trundler
anyway keep up the good work,i myself was very happy with this months fellrunner magazine,thanks to everyone who help make it :D
and well done Britta. Think you're doing a great job.
britta id like to add my views if i mayQuote:
Originally Posted by Britta
i think the magazine is spot on , at the end of the day as usual there are always a number of people that criticise people like yourself, they should be ashamed of themselves. The latest edition was as good as ever. The only actual fellrunner ive ever heard moan was about always having photos of the same top runners in it.
I must try and write some articles
keep up the goodwork
daz
I think you should read the thread again carefully before you make comments like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by daz h
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamB
Eek....Quote:
Originally Posted by daz h
Now that is funny!
[quote=GrahamB;114107]Well... I don't like much music cut after around '62 (Garden Party was '72) but my Billboard Hot 100 books cover the territory from '55 so that's OK.
RN isn't terribly high on my list of favourites but he had good writers and of course had the wit to hire James Burton for eight years. And only today did I discover that James played lead on Dale Hawkins Susie-Q . Now that was a record. (Checker # 863, Peaked at #27 in Billboard July 1957: 19 weeks on chart).
At last a decent thread, lets talk Rockabilly,Rock n'Roll and early pre Beatle pop (The Beatles and long distance running articles - hmm), I agree nothing much decent was cut after 1962- but if we are going to talk underated guitar heroes how about Joe Brown on the "Sound of Fury".
Nice one Greenleafer, I think you hit it on the head with your description of the LD articles- no disrespect to LD running.Quote:
Originally Posted by greenleafer
Perhaps we could do a 2 hander as at 43 I am one of the younger generation, I am guessing you could give a handle the older grumpy git perspective.
I think we should do an article entitled " Brad shags Kerry at Burnsall shock, whilst Angelina away at Himalayan Marathon". How about it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antisocial
err david i was remarking on this post
whats the problem ?????
explain
Couldn't agree more Greenleafer....Quote:
Originally Posted by greenleafer
..... and keep the long distance stuff coming Britta!
Oh come on Daz, you were sniping at "a number of people", not just answering that one post.Quote:
Originally Posted by daz h
We are not having a go at Britta here, we are just giving feedback - something that every editor welcomes. It's the only way to gauge general reaction to editorial policy and it can't all be positive!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trundler
yet again someone who seems to know what im posting about
trundler i didnt like the posts from antisocial and johnny foreigner :(
the line in antisocials post that reads the magazine looks good but editing required was the bit that made me post on the thread:confused:
if thats not directed at britta i dont know what is
in fact sod it
why bother
britta you can only print what is sent in to publish, as previously stated it is impossible to print blank pages.
i value the fra magazine and enjoy reading it.........
...........when murky cloud gives it back to me :mad:
An interesting debate. I don't think the "purist" viewpoint is that valid though. The long distance stuff has been an integral part of the fell running scene for decades - just think of Joss Naylor's exploits. If anyone has heard of a fell runner it is probably him. I don't think you can say fell running has ever just been about races.
Personally I think it is a good thing for the FRA to embrace what might be termed fringe interests like the ultra-running championships, mountain marathons and long distance challenges, overseas events. The FRA is the best place for them. They add diversity and that is a strength not a weakness for the future of any organisation.
If the FRA has attracted 2000 more members in the last few years perhaps the reason is partly that they were inspired by hearing about the Bob Graham through Feet in the Clouds. It then makes sense for the magazine to reflect and retain their interest by featuring more long distance stuff. It's already been said that it's an extra in the magazine it's not at the expense of anything else - it's all still there! We have all gained something! I actually recommended to a friend who has not been a member for years to re-join because he would now find the magazine more interesting.
Finally I don't think we should take the magazine for granted. With respect to similar sized organanisations like the LDWA The Fellrunner is in a different class both in terms of production and the quality of articles, which in turn mirrors the greater dynamism of the FRA and it's membership.
Would that be an article, some articles, any article or a definite article?:)Quote:
Originally Posted by daz h
Can we go back to 'black and white' please ? I don't like all these fancy colours.
I always miss the deadline, i'm very articlelate:oQuote:
Originally Posted by Swoop
an article.. so you could start off with an advice column for the young fell runners of today after all you have helped AllanT with his various female problems ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by daz h
To clarify the comment was not directed as a direct criticism of Britta and her work which was acknowleged in a post after my original post but before your response.Quote:
Originally Posted by daz h
Absolutely right! To me, it's not about the 'long distance' aspects, it's more to do with a move away from what is admittedly my own, personal, 'purist', grass-roots view of what constitutes fellrunning - or even 'proper' mountain running. Joss's exploits have always been about fellrunning, and so is, say, the Butter Crag (at the other end of the spectrum). Even the Buff Sky Races hold true to the same "Over The Tops" ethos - even though they take place in a different environment.Quote:
Originally Posted by MOUNTAIN MAN
My misgivings are more to do with the increasing focus on trail running - and sorry but I even put the Everest Marathon in that category (!!) even if it is at extreme altitude. My view is that if it doesn't get on the summits it's not a fell or mountain race.
In Graham Breeze's article on Angela Mudge, he mentions conquering Everest - well (with respect Graham) doing the Everest Marathon is not "conquering Everest" There's a trend at the moment which is a bit like the cycling anomaly where crossing a pass or just being in the vicinity of a peak is regarded as 'conquering the summit' when it really isn't.
Fell races/challenges, and proper mountain races/challenges, TO ME, involve ACTUALLY treading the summits (Studmarks On The Summits!!). Anything else is just trail/approach/cross-country... call it what you will but it's not fell or mountain running.
And before someone says "why bother distinguishing...blah blah" .. if we don't then we might as well just call ourselves the 'Runners Association' and lump ourselves in with road and track & field... :(
To be honest I can't actually believe some of the comments made on this thread.
The underling points are of course perfectly valid, but (and in such a public forum) I haven't read anything that sounds like constructive criticism. I thought Britta's reply was very kind to several comments just moaning about the fact they don't like reading about LD articles. Where's the constructive bit - what would you like to read instead, and who do you think fellrunner should be aimed at then?
If someone wrote comments like that whilst we were editing a publication at work, well yes you don't like it, but you haven't told me anything about how you think it could be made better?
I thought this is edition definitely had some improvements on the past ones - nice info on the championship races - pictures and images seem to be getting better and better.
The only suggestion I'd make is to see more articles on some of the classic races, bit of the history and stories.
Well done Britta, you've done a fantastic job with what's given to you. I know of several professional societies that cost hundreds of pounds to be a member and their publications don't even come close to ours.
exactlyQuote:
Originally Posted by Bleaklow
I have read this thread with interest and not posted till now as I didn't want to get involved in negative comments made about a publication that people do for free.
I was asked to write one small piece that was included within a bigger piece for the Woodheads. I can tell you now, that even though it was a short piece it took a great deal of time to complete. I wouldn't want to be writing longer articles on a regular basis like some do and do so very well.
The magazine brings a joy when it drops through the letter box. I don't read it cover to cover. Like so many others I look if there are any picture of me in it. Then I read about races I did, look at results from other races and then over a number of weeks dip in and out of it during quiet times in the day. I don't rush to read the articles on the long distance running, but might one day get round to reading them, especially if on long trips or flights.
On the whole a bloody good magazine for the yearly price. Keep up the great work because I really do value the effort that you all put in to it. I might even go for a long run this Easter and write about it during the holidays from work. I might write about how running on the moors helped me make the Wold XC team!*
*This is a might, and knowing my mights and other things that take place in my life it might never happen.
Bleaklow, I think if you re read my posting on page 13 (#127) you'll find I was quite constructive and made suggestions as to how WE can improve The Fellrunner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleaklow
I must admit I get a bit irritated when people who are obviously perfectly happy with the status quo start having a go at those of us who think it could be better.
We have the right to comment and Britta (like any good editor) welcomes comment - good and bad - as it provides guidance on what the audience wants. There is absolutely no need to get all precious and defensive about it.
Yes, The Fellrunner is far better than the vast majority of club or association rags. Yes, we should be grateful to the people who contribute to it's production. Yes, I (like most members) enjoy reading it and look forward to it's arrival. Can it be improved? Yes. Do we have the right to voice our opinions without certain people getting all shirty about it? Yes.
Personally speaking, I enjoy the mag on the whole and we're lucky (as a group) to have such a diligent editorial staff to produce it. Not to say that I necessarily like all the articles that are presented but I just skip over those, so what's the big deal? :D
Better the Fellrunner mag than one of the generic running mags that don't cater for anything offroad at all.
To finish my contribution to this debate, I broadly agree with Trudlers comment above. I have also emailed Britta directly with more in depth views.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trundler
Though admittedly membership is cheap we do pay in part for Fell Runner through our subscriptions and it is advertised as part of the membership it is not free as some have suggested so we have a right to comment.
However I don't agree with Trundlers previous post that the content should be purely about fell running, I think that editorial policy and who Fell Runner is aimed at should be determined by the FRA committee and the editorial team, however I would be interested in seeing a statement as to what this is. If it is to accept articles from a broader church so be it (though will a lot of the broader church audience miss out if they are not members of the FRA)If the membership do not agree with this they can comment in a targeted way rather than through light hearted comments similar to the ones I made at the start of this debate. (Still stand by them though).
To close - whatever I think of the content thanks must go again to Britta for producing such a professional and classy looking magazine. Given the low subscription cost I can only assume this is through the advertising revenues especially those paid for by Axar sport (for more info go to www.trailrunspain.com) who often contibute adverts several pages long (2 this issue) about trail running in Spain, it must cost them a fortune.http://forum.fellrunner.org.uk/images/icons/icon7.gif