Why? What difference does that make??
Quote:
Originally Posted by George
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Why? What difference does that make??
Quote:
Originally Posted by George
The competitors vet race organisers. If the RO does not show the required 'level of care' for competitors, or conversely if the RO is OTT in 'mothering and smothering' the competitors, then the competitors vote with their feet and do not return to that race in future years! At the end of the day the RO has set himself a huge uphill task in attempting to put on an event that should be safe and fair for all the participants, respect him for that. If you like what he's doing, enter; if you don't like it, don't enter.
I understand that all race organisers for endurance events will need to be licensed eventually.Quote:
Originally Posted by George
UK:Athletics
Apparently this will help race organisers understand Risk Assessment for courses and Health and Safety rules and regulations.
The Fell and Hill Running community will need to decide if this legislation applies to their events.
Wheeze,
I don't think you should have entry fees reduced / increased for carrying specific bits of kit. I don't think that's the fellrunning ethos, but I think RO's should be able to advise entrants that carrying specific bits of kit above and beyond waterproofs etc, may be beneficial. Mobile phones particularly because 12 months ago all I had was a T-Mobile phone that barely got a signal anywhere outside a a major urban area.
I'd be happy to be advised that carrying a GPS is beneficial. But then I'm a techie geek and therefore I own one. If I do have to resort to using it then I'm happy to own up to it and be dq'd from the results.
I've been trying to decide where I stand on this one. Not sure I have to be honest.
Dom, I'm definitely anti GPS - it deskills the ancient black art of navigation, and there are inherent innaccuracies, as No.6 discovered when using his cherished bit of frippery whilst crossing the Ward's Stone plateau on Friday night's mid-winter solstice run. There again, many of my mates would say that using a cell-phone will eventually 'deskill' my ability to whisper across 5 (very big) fields!!!;)
Scene: 21 mile 5500 feet Dockray Helvellyn race in 2002.
The RO Joe Faulkner at the start line said (and I summarise): "this is a serious fell race, there are NO marshalls, I assume you have all got the right kit, we are not going to come looking for you if you get lost, if you want to drop out- do it NOW, etc etc.
The runners didn't laugh, they just went very quiet.
Sometimes it is good for a RO to spell out a few home truths.
Invest in a Camelbak now! I can see it coming...one year soon in a midsummer race there will be a blazingly hot day and many people will be carted off the fells due to dehydration and will that be the response?
Seriously, I think you can all see the club committee after last years race wiping their brows and saying "phew, just got away with it", closely followed by the "but what could have happened?" question, hotly persued by a "what more could we have done?".
And the nub is, is carrying a mobile phone the answer? And then a step on, will that mean the race organiser provides waterproof paper with local emergency numbers, checkpoint marshalls numbers etc etc?
There are people in orienteering who resent carrying a whistle.
With others, I'm in the 'race organisers is always right' brigade, but that doesn't stop the debate.
Not dissimilar to a Cat C race last weekend.
RO, "If you break your leg they'll be a 4 Wheel Drive to pick you up. Anything less than that and you're on your own".
And so it should be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominion
Only one leg? Ah you did say Category C as in C for Softies .
No, C as in Southern. Or Shropshire. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamB
When I first started, we didn't use compasses we relied on watching t'sky and studying t'walls to see which side were mossy. We didn't have maps neither - relied entirely on lurkel knowledge. As for full body cover, if it were cold, you just painted an extra layer of woad on yerself - and if Team Captain caught you shivvering, you'd get a good thrashing to keep you warm. Mobiles indeed!
But seriously, I'd like to just add a piece of information to the argument. The year before last, one of the Peak District teams was involved in a very wide search for a group which could have been on either Kinder or Bleaklow. The weather was bad, and there was a serious concern that if this group were out for a long time, the outcome would be grim. Also, the potential area was huge, and this very fact meant that to search this area well would take far too long, even if all the teams in the peak district were called in to help.
Under these circumstances, the police persuaded the group's mobile phone provider to release some of their data, and the team used this to pinpoint where the group were (or at least the area), which greatly reduced the search - and it was a much happier outcome.
This predicament is not unlike the problem which faced Edale MRT (the lads who will be watching over us runners on the Skyline) after this year's Tanky's Trog. Then, a young lady missing "somewhere between Marsden and Edale" - fortunately this turned out to be a clerical error and she hadn't started.
When you think about this, you realise that, sooner or later, one of our long organisers was going to ask runners to carry mobiles (I'm surprised it hasn't already happened) - and, of course, the first one to do it would receive the most criticism. But we shouldn't be too hard on him - he only has our welfare at heart.
I have made arrangements to borrow my son's mobile.
It hangs above his cot and plays "old macdonald". Perhaps it will soothe me if I get injured and have to have a lie down.
Sorry, but thought a bit of a levity was needed. It is supposed to be xmas after all.
On a more serious note: Andy, if you want a cheap phone in the bum bag, then it goes in, simple as that. Well done for taking on the organisation of the Skyline.
I think this is a very important debate and there is a definate case for this being the thin edge of the wedge where self reliance on the fells is concerned.
Most runners enjoy the personal freedom of being self-reliant in races. For many, carryiong a mobile changes the nature and 'feel' of the racing experience. It also changes the nature of the race for those considering entering for the first time, or whether to compete in bad weather - 'oh well Ive got my phone if anything goes wrong'
Making carrying a phone compulsory is taking away a little bit more of the competitors responsibility for their own safety and putting it in the hands of the organiser. I think we should resist this. There will no doubt be cases where mobile phones can be used to make things safer - this isnt in despute - but that doesnt make it right to enforce taking them.
This could easily and quickly become the norm. Im sure race organisers when making decisions about safety in their race imagine the court case and whether their decisions will stand up to scrutiny in the event of the worse happening. How would a court view the fact that the Edale race makes mobile phones compulsory but 'your' race didnt? Why not? Does that make you negligent?
The 'thick end of the wedge' that could follow might be:
Compulsory to carry phones that have been tested, approved and work
Compulsory to carry rest of kit that has been approved/tested
Logical progression to GPS for navigation and positioning
Races only being 'licensed' in areas with mobile coverage
Race organisers having to pass courses in safety before organising a race
Marshalls having to pass courses in safety before marshalling a race
Runners to carry GPS tracking chip to help organisers locate them
It is no bad thing that these sound ridiculous to read - imagine them applying to fell running!!? The scary thing is that some have already been proposed and some already happen in other similar sports. We should resist these changes to preserve the self-reliant nature of fell running.
I quite agree that it is a fell runner's right to be able to run unfettered over the hills, and to be totally responsible for his own safety - and when I run over Kinder in half an hour, I will be doing just that.
But many races (even Borrowdale) us MR Teams as safety back-up these days, and these teams have no prerogative when it comes to choosing whether they can use technology to help them in their job. We cannot ignore this fact any more than we can uninvent intrusive contraptions like mobile phones or GPS units.
Yes it's the thin end of a wedge, but the wedge hasn't just appeared - it's been there for a long time. If we carry on ignoring it, it will not go away.
The purpose of MR teams is to save lives on mountains - of course they have to use technology if it helps them do that. My reasoning was that the nature of fell running - and fell racing - has been, and should be, self reliance. Making mobiles compulsory erodes that and changes the nature of it. I dont advocate 'ignoring' the thin end of the wedge but resisting it in a considered way to preserve the sport as it is
You may want to add:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dux de lux
All runners to have a medical certificate.
All runners to provide full medical information
which will be printed on their number.
All runners to have individual insurance cover.
I don't know how many of the reactionaries posting here organise fell races but I have always regarded it a privilege to compete in a fell race someone has kindly taken the trouble to organise and not a right.
SecondedQuote:
Originally Posted by GrahamB
I felt it was a privilege to be putting something back into a sport I love and I would not have wanted to change the nature of it for the sake of my own comfort.
As has already been said, disclaimers are signed (yes I know they are 'worthless' in the hands of a good lawyer). If the RO is acting in way that is in accordance with accepted practise (as laid down in FRA rules), there will be no personal liability in a court. The point here is the shifting of what defines 'accepted practise' and how that affects the nature of the sport, as so eloquently put by De Lux.
Lets not get arsey about this.
It is a choice we have to compete in a fell race. If the conditions of entry are too severe then some people will decide not to participate.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamB
Or minimum and maximum weight; no competitors over a certain age; no competitors wearing knee supports; race cancellations because of the rain etcQuote:
Originally Posted by XRunner
Carrying mobiles would be very handy on long team events, the club runners could talk to their mates ahead and relay info on who's coming up fast, which route xxx took, how many minutes behind someone is. :D
This opens up endless possibilities for 'cheating' - "no it's not cheating, it's in the rules" :rolleyes: .
Sounds good to me.
Or bombard a key competitor with calls (from compatriots not running that day). That said I'm sure everyone carrying a mobile won't have it on will they?Quote:
Originally Posted by molehill
The Race Organiser may need to check that every runner has a working phone. A new rule could be that if you missed more that three random phone calls from the race organisers then you will be disqualiifed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
Is this a possibility?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dux de lux
We have timing chips, could a GPS chip be attached to your shoe in a similar manner?
Probably expensive, but could each runner have their own personal chip?
A few already have one - on their shoulder.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by fellhell
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swoop
Keep us laughing Swoop!
I have never done (and have no intention of ever doing) the Edale Skyline, so I can say what the heck I like without fear of inflaming the organiser's wrath...:D
This is indeed the thin end of a horrible wedge. Most of my points have already been well covered by Wheeze, molehill and Grouse (plus others) above but just one other thing: I think it's rather strange that we deliberately take up a sport in which an element of risk is one of it's inherent attractions, then try to take all the risk (fun!) out of it.
I'm sure we all respect and are grateful to organisers but we surely do have a right to say when we think the rules and requirements are too nannying. It's a very poor attitude to simply say "It's my race, my rules, and if you don't like it sod off!". Personally I don't give a damn about the Edale Skyline but if this became accepted practice at other races I would, like others, be mighty aggrieved..:mad:
PS I work in H&S (sorry:o ) so I see this from both sides, but a fell race is not a workplace. The Duty of Care is entirely different!
Its simple really. If you dont like the idea of carrying a mobile dont f**king enter.
I didnt like the idea of paying £20 to do the Three Peaks so i didnt enter it but i have too much respect for race organisers to whine about it.
No Race Organisers = No Races
Hmm. I didn't realise it was that simple... or that I (and others above) were "whining"
Thanks for enlightening me, Dick. :rolleyes:
Think I covered that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by molehill
Not whining at all, I believe any event organiser who intends instigating something new and 'compulsory' would be interested in potential participants views on it.
In fairness to Richard Head (and having read trundler and Molehill's subsequent replys) I think the opinion he expresses is valid and I doubt he was trying to claim originality so much as clearly stating a view.
Oh it's valid alright, can't argue with that. How much richer the art of debate is thanks to contribution of Mr Head :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Head
No Race Organisers = No Races? True.
No Runners = No F***ing Races! Also True.
(see how much I've learned from him...) :D
The bigger picture is what Im concerned about. When mobiles become compulsory at one long event there instantly becomes pressure on other organisers to do the same. Therefore one organisers well meaning decision impacts on the whole nature of long races.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Head
Richard - as far as I can see there is a valuable debate going on here, ignorant inflammatory comments like yours don't really help in any way.
Calm down guys - it's the festive season - goodwill and all that!!
If you read Andy's post (no.25 to save you trawling through the whole thread), as race organiser he has made a reasoned decision and is sticking to it. So either take your mobile along or move on to another raceQuote:
Originally Posted by molehill
I dont see this thread as a valuable debate. It is a mainly comments from two opposing sides, neither of whom has any chance of converting the other to their way of thinking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dux de lux
Merry F**king Christmas TrundlerQuote:
Originally Posted by Trundler
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Head
Do you care about fell running?
Have you done many long races of this kind?
Honest answers please...
Remember - swearing doesnt make you sound clever Richard
Could be interesting if somebody gets into a pickle at another race now and it ends up in court! So mr race organising tell me again why didn't follow the modern example set at the edale race!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dux de lux
Will it be enforced at wansfell is the big question!!!