Bob Graham Route Choices

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Originally Posted by Swiss Toni

2 weeks to go and i've got all the route choices sorted in my head apart from one...

I'm still torn between going up Fairfield via the track behind Grisedale Tarn and the out and back climb/descent - or - the zig-zags down then going up via the Tarn outflow and the trod going towards Cofa Pike.

One is further with less climbing and on good paths. The other is more direct and on good paths down and reasonable trods up.

I'll be doing this in the dark by the way.

I've done both, but only the more direct route in the dark. My gut instinct is to take the wider, more runnable descent and traverse around the tarn. It also has no nav issues, esp when you leave the top of Fairfield as you return the way you came!

Still not sure.

Any thoughts?!

ST

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listen to Little Binnion ... pick good pacers and trust them.;)

Jamie and I were saying only last week that neither of us have ever been on catstycam .... now, how weird is that! may just add in a small detour

Seriously though, re dollywaggon - fairfield, I can't say I've ever timed each route, but I think I'd always go straight off dollywaggon, round the tarn and then up and down the same line on Fairfield. I just think there's less room for error navigationally, especially as you say you can re-trace your steps off Fairfield. I think the only reason for going off dollywaggon via the zig zags would be if the ground was icy, as this is a gentler descent.

I've done the zig zag path off dollywaggon and done the direct in the grisedale horseshoe race.

The only bit of that leg that I have not done is Threlkeld to clough head. I'm sure you guys have reccied it to death.

Only saw one chap from Tatt and the kinder trog today, did not introduce myself he was at the top off some steps and I would not have got up there

See y'all soon

Re: Great Calva to Blencathra
Did leg 1 yesterday and tried the Skiddaw House variation.
Usual BG pace: clocked SK in 1.22, GC in 0.43 then BL in 1.13. All these times are within 1 minute of what I would usually do on this leg.
Interestingly though, it took 24 minutes to get to the gate (hoping for 17 as suggested). The run off Calva was resaonably straight forward although I had to continually scan the ground for the trod hidden under thick heather. It was always there but with lots of twists towards the end of the descent.
On the ascent I more or less followed the grid refs but did have to drop 5m or so into Roughten Ghyll. There then followed 350m of climbing on good firm ground: but still, it's 350m rising left all the time. I was amazed it took an almost identical time to going down the fence line.
I reckon when I try this way again I'll take about 70 since I won't need to concentrate so much, will take slightly better lines and have the knowledge that I know what's coming up.
If you are a fast runner on tracks and are prepared for a single 350m climb then this alternative route is the one for you. (The good thing with going over the common is the climb is done in two parts.)
The summit I had to myself except for several hundred noisey seagulls sat on the ground by the small tarn.
The descent was via a little used route involving a 130m drop on steep grass SSE from the summit followed by a series of traverses and one further drop bringing you back on the ridge below ALL the scrambling stuff! 28 easy minutes to Threlkeld.
Another great afternoon out. The solitude of Back O' Skidda takes a lot of beating in the Lakes.

[QUOTE=Mr1470;45609]Want to start do some recces through the rest of summer and into next winter.

A couple of questions which have partly been covered before but I'm still not sure of the general consensus;

iv) Robinson -so the accepted route is to follow the ridge all the way down to High Snab farm? Is it not worth dropping down earlier, just after the rocky step?

see http://maps.live.com/?v=2&sp=Polylin...3ydgqys61_down off Robinson____#0000FF_008000_2pt_Single_Solid_t2qvy3 gqy2zj&encType=1

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Originally Posted by keswicksimon

Interestingly though, it took 24 minutes to get to the gate (hoping for 17 as suggested). .

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I am surprised.

It is under 2 miles(but only just), almost all downhill at an easy gradient, almost all on very good running track - so 8.5-9 min miling is not a fast target under those conditions.

Since the BG is over 120 naismith miles, and therefore faster than 12 min equivalent flat miles arguably you cannot do 12 min miles downhill on good paths and still succeed on the BG as a whole.

But as I said in the OP - some of "what works best" is down to people - I have been a better runner than climber - although after a 5 years mostly enforced layoff with injuries am neither runner nor climber now!

For information, I did this route on a hot day (27C) - having been out 2 days previously and done a similar distance so was already knackered rather than fresh. I had also climbed up and down blencathra twice that day looking for descent lines off blencathra.

It will be interesting to see what others make of it.

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Originally Posted by keswicksimon

The descent was via a little used route involving a 130m drop on steep grass SSE from the summit followed by a series of traverses and one further drop bringing you back on the ridge below ALL the scrambling stuff! 28 easy minutes to Threlkeld.

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I was going to have a shot at traversing under the E side of halls fell ridge which this seems to describe.

One thing that has put me off it, is looking from the top of doddick the heather looks awful deep!

Are there trods? or is it a case of dead reckoning through? How deep is the heather? - and the next interesting question - do you think this is a safe route for a night/poor visibility descent?

I'll just have to work it bit harder at it. I think I was holding back a bit as I was unsure of the route choice as a whole. By the way what are your usual split times for leg 1.
As for coming off Hall's Fell, the route I follow touches no heather. Descend to the left of the wide scree run to a cairn at the bottom of the scree. Traverse left for about 20m to a cairn. Descend at a 45 degree angle for about a distance of 30m to a cairn. Traverse on a trod for roughly 15m and then descend a short corner to a cairn and follow a rough trod horizontally to a point on the ridge. It sounds a bit vague thats because it is in places. Crudley, down a lot, across a bit, down a bit, across then down then across. Good luck.

Of course when I say SSE I really mean SSW? Tell my wife about it!

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Originally Posted by keswicksimon

I'll just have to work it bit harder at it. I think I was holding back a bit as I was unsure of the route choice as a whole. By the way what are your usual split times for leg 1.
As for coming off Hall's Fell, the route I follow touches no heather. Descend to the left of the wide scree run to a cairn at the bottom of the scree. Traverse left for about 20m to a cairn. Descend at a 45 degree angle for about a distance of 30m to a cairn. Traverse on a trod for roughly 15m and then descend a short corner to a cairn and follow a rough trod horizontally to a point on the ridge. It sounds a bit vague thats because it is in places. Crudley, down a lot, across a bit, down a bit, across then down then across. Good luck.

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Could you please show us this route on
http://maps.live.com/?v=2&sp=Point.t...a___&encType=1

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Originally Posted by keswicksimon

Of course when I say SSE I really mean SSW? Tell my wife about it!

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Ahh!

Now.

When I was climbing up middle tongue I could see a level traverse path well down on the W side of halls fell ridge at about the height of the "nose" on middle tongueso that might be it : but the start seemed very indistinct - ie couldnt work out how anyone would get there in the first place! So that must be the lower part.

The top of that descent looks horrendous when I tried it, although I didnt go very far, and didnt see any cairns!

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Originally Posted by Chas

Could you please show us this route on
http://maps.live.com/?v=2&sp=Point.t...a___&encType=1

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I would if I knew how. I can forward a OS map with a route marked on but I don't have a URL for it. Any clues?

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Originally Posted by keswicksimon

I'll just have to work it bit harder at it. I think I was holding back a bit as I was unsure of the route choice as a whole. By the way what are your usual split times for leg 1.
.

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About 80/45 - your 42 sounds fast to me! - but then I dont try to run the mushy bits of the trod to and below hare crag.

Ill have a go at your cairn traverse of halls fell - assuming you can settle on whether it is SSW or SSE!

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Originally Posted by NotOnUrHelly

Only saw one chap from Tatt and the kinder trog today, did not introduce myself he was at the top off some steps and I would not have got up there

See y'all soon

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That was Richard - he'll be on leg 5, waaay after you've done on leg 2

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Originally Posted by chesterblue

listen to Little Binnion ... pick good pacers and trust them.;)
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OK then mate, looks like we're going via the back of the tarn.

Looking forward to it and indebted to you both!

ST

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Originally Posted by little binnian

Our line up Red Pike left of the main track in fact gained 6 minutes on schedule.

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and I showed you pacer the even quicker way following the stream on his round :D

Bill

Photo showing alternative descent off Hall's Fell. 5 cairns mark the route

http://maps.live.com/?v=2&sp=Point.t...a___&encType=1

Try again....
http://maps.live.com/?v=2&sp=Point.t...c8gj&encType=1

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Originally Posted by keswicksimon

I would if I knew how. I can forward a OS map with a route marked on but I don't have a URL for it. Any clues?

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Look on the scratch pad, you can draw a path on the map.
Its better than an os map as you can show exactly where to go :)

Bill

[quote=keswicksimon;45900]Try again....

You beat me to it :D

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Originally Posted by Mr1470

iii) Yewbarrow - don't fancy the scramble down Stirrup Crag. I've read about the grassy rake off to the left. Is this after the main summit or do you have to double back to find it?

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You don't go near Stirrup crag, the main way everyone goes is at the col between the north and south summit of Yewbarrow (coming from the main south summit) there is a cairn and a path leading off to the left (NNW) follow this it drops down then starts to traverse the slopes heading for Dore Head.

Here's a link for the way I like to go (the last person I paced made up about 8 mins on his schedule here)

Bill

Where to cross the wall?

Leg 4: very start.
Which route do other people take

Option (a) I am used to crossing over the wall in the corner now reinforced with wire mesh. And I know many others use this too.

Although there is now so much bracken you are forced to head rapidly for the stream bed, rather than a climbing traverse to it.

Option (b) 2/3 of the way across the field in the direction of the stream bed there is a fallen section of wall that is easy to cros..

Option (c) More or less in the line of the stream bed there is a style: but this option is certainly longer than (b) and a lot longer than (c)

What do others do?

I cross at the style but have crossed about 10m? right of style (could step over wall)

Bill

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Originally Posted by Baggins

I cross at the style but have crossed about 10m? right of style (could step over wall)

Bill

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Thanks.

So where do you enter the field?

The fence is very low just to the left of the layby opposite the road to brackenclose and so can be stepped over which is what I have done in the past, more or less in line with the reinforced wall corner:

But it is nowhere near the style, so do you go further down the road more in line with the style?, or take a diagonal crossing of the field?

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Originally Posted by alwaysinjured

Since the BG is over 120 naismith miles, and therefore faster than 12 min equivalent flat miles arguably you cannot do 12 min miles downhill on good paths and still succeed on the BG as a whole.

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Doesn't Naismith equate 1000ft ascent to 1.5 miles, which for the BGR gives just over 100 miles (assuming 63 miles, 26000ft).

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Originally Posted by alwaysinjured

Thanks.

So where do you enter the field?

The fence is very low just to the left of the layby opposite the road to brackenclose and so can be stepped over which is what I have done in the past, more or less in line with the reinforced wall corner:

But it is nowhere near the style, so do you go further down the road more in line with the style?, or take a diagonal crossing of the field?

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I'm planning on going down the road 50 yards (if that) and going over the gate marked 'private' (I know, i know) and heading up the trod that materialises as the ground steepens (a few cairns too). I'll pretty much go through that gate and head for the big boulder.

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Originally Posted by Swiss Toni

I'm planning on going down the road 50 yards (if that) and going over the gate marked 'private' (I know, i know) and heading up the trod that materialises as the ground steepens (a few cairns too). I'll pretty much go through that gate and head for the big boulder.

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thats definitely right - through the gate and past the boulder to the stile.

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Originally Posted by Swiss Toni

I'm planning on going down the road 50 yards (if that) and going over the gate marked 'private' (I know, i know) and heading up the trod that materialises as the ground steepens (a few cairns too). I'll pretty much go through that gate and head for the big boulder.

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Yes, me too. I thought that was the way everybody went.

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Originally Posted by GeoffB

Yes, me too. I thought that was the way everybody went.

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Dont bother with the gate.

Just left of the layby ( and before the gate) you can step over the fence: it is easier, shorter and faster.

(and that way you dont even see a sign marked private!)

But I think you will find a great many people have crossed at the wall corner, and then taken a route that connects with the stream gully at a height of 300-400 feet that saves probably 200m distance BUT at this time of year the bracken is too deep, and you are more or less forced to join the gully lower down.

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Originally Posted by gej

Doesn't Naismith equate 1000ft ascent to 1.5 miles, which for the BGR gives just over 100 miles (assuming 63 miles, 26000ft).

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If take 500 feet per mile as a conversion, add that to the miles and multiply by 5 minutes you get a number which is very close to the lakeland fell race records - IMHO closer than the comparison at 700 feet - so I reckon 500 feet is a better conversion, and is the number I use to translate my own flat performance to fell with fair accuracy. But then maybe I am a cr*p climber!

I would be interested in an elite fell runners view of that

In any event it does not alter the fact that from the OP - 2 miles in 24 minutes on good track on a good descent gradient is probably too slow to make sense of the BG generally.

To verify that statement take the section from sergeant man to harrison stickle - assuming high raise - sergeant man - thunakar - harrison which is level with 100 -200 foot climbs and descents

That is a distance of 3 miles and on the accepted schedules that I know of is targetted at 7 min, 14 min , 8 min - which is around 30 min and 6 miles per hour.

On that basis taking 24 mins for the descent past skiddaw house - a net loss of at least 700 feet? on good track and good gradient is simply not fast enough for 2 miles

PS - I dont have the schedules so all of that is from memory - hope it is right.!

Anyway the proof of the pudding.

Lets see others take that descent at what they feel is stage 1 BG pace and see what time they do.

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So where do you enter the field?

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The gate :confused:

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Just left of the layby ( and before the gate) you can step over the fence: it is easier, shorter and faster.

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I don't mind going through a gate marked private into a field but feel uneasy about going over a fence :o

Bill

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Originally Posted by alwaysinjured

.... But then maybe I am a cr*p climber!

I would be interested in an elite fell runners view of that

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Maybe you are!!;)

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Originally Posted by Wylie Coyote

Maybe you are!!;)

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At least tackle the issue in hand - the race records correlate far better with 500 feet per mile than 660, so it seems from those figures the elite fell runners are crap climbers compared to naismith too.

Just back from supporting leg #2 on a clockwise round in very misty/murky conditions ( < 50m visibility for most of the leg) but otherwise mild with only a light shower or two.

Interesting to note that the direct route up Clough Head has developed a well defined trod and one or two cairns now. Certainly wasn't like that four years ago. The contender mentioned that the trods in the back o' Skiddaw were similarly well defined, particularly those on Great Calva. She took the line down by the fence on the East Ridge off Great Calva.

Five contenders/teams had set off at midnight and at least one descended Doddick Fell rather than Halls Fell. I didn't notice if any teams took a different line.

Also, between Dollywagon Pike and Fairfield, all five teams descended via the old fence and traversed round Grizedale Tarn rather than the zig-zags and the direct line up Fairfield from the outflow.

The main navigational error we (read I) made was to veer too far left coming off Seat Sandal and ending up descending slippy, rocky ground around 100m left of where the good trod is. (Note to self - don't be influenced by other teams!)

Apparently there were two teams setting off at 1am and another 2 at 2am. I saw one of these leaving Dunmail Raise but not sure which one.

I was with one of the 2am teams and I think we passed most people enroute. I crossed the well worn trod onto Clough Head, but there are no cairns on the route I take, we had to double back for Watsons as I'd put my compass away and the clag was pretty thick (my lame excuse). We passed the last group(s) somewhere during Fairfield as they appeared out of the gloom behind us at the foot of Seat Sandal. We crossed the outlet and climbed towards Cofa for more grip and descended via the screes. Glad to see the cloud lifted for the next sections. Good running to all still going and thanks to the crew who gave us tea in Threlkeld before we started and commiserations to their chap who had to retire at Dunmail.

Team of three, one wearing a white T-shirt? Must be on a pretty quick schedule to take out two hours so soon in the round.

Yes, I think he's on a 21 hour schedule (I was on my limit), one of the pacers had to miss out SS but we still beat him down to the change over. Just off to see if anyone's at Honister.

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Originally Posted by Chris K

I was with one of the 2am teams and I think we passed most people enroute.

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Oh no you didn't :D
The lad I was pacing was the first of the midnight starters to finish, did it in 22:07 and was very strong towards the end also someone finished about 10-15 minutes after us and they had started at midnight as well.

Bill

Sounds like that could be GeoffB then?

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Originally Posted by Grouse

Sounds like that could be GeoffB then?

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No it wasn't GeoffB but a few people came in later (could hear the cheers) but as is tradition we were on the beer :)

Bill

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Just back from supporting leg #2 on a clockwise round in very misty/murky conditions ( < 50m visibility for most of the leg) but otherwise mild with only a light shower or two.

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50m visibility! what I would have gave for 50m visibility on Kirkfell!

I lost the path coming off Kirkfell and lost us a couple of minutes :o

Note to self a quick look at the compass to get the right line can be handy sometimes :)

Bill

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Originally Posted by Baggins

Oh no you didn't :D
The lad I was pacing was the first of the midnight starters to finish, did it in 22:07 and was very strong towards the end also someone finished about 10-15 minutes after us and they had started at midnight as well.

Bill

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Oops! Apologies:o and congratulations! I think our chap really suffered coming into Honister and could only walk from Robinson on the last leg, ending up with a 22.15.