BreezyQuote:
Originally Posted by GrahamB
I like to think I'm a detail man. ;)
Don't want anyone getting the wrong end of the stick though!
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BreezyQuote:
Originally Posted by GrahamB
I like to think I'm a detail man. ;)
Don't want anyone getting the wrong end of the stick though!
I'll get back to you on this ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Duff
[might take me a couple of months though :o ]
I'll get mine :o
I've been doing some research and it's surprising just how misinformation becomes "fact" despite readily available evidence to the contrary.
With the concept of fell race records, these are only updated when they get broken so the assumption is that "no-one" has got near the record since they were set. If the fastest three or five winning times were recorded you'd see that this isn't the case.
Oh, within 1/2 hr of Billy Bland's BGR record? None as Baggins has rightly pointed out - the next fastest are Stuart Bland and Mark Hartell over an hour slower (comparative term!). Billy knocked nearly 4hrs off the record:eek: Imagine if someone reduced the current marathon record to 1hr 38mins? It was as if everyone else had just been playing at it.
Brian Martin with regard to the LCT races has analysed the position comprehensively and a summary of his work has appeared in several TFM articles. In fact no one knows more about race times for these races (and many other matters since he was FRA Statistician for many years) than he does. The data is available.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob
Yeh funny how no one ever says anything about the Borrowdale route being longer now than it was when Billy set the record. Not that it's not a great record, it is (or should I say was?) but how does anyone have a chance of breaking it now the course is longer?Quote:
Originally Posted by BGSec
Cuts both ways...
Well, Duddon could easily go back to the longer route in years when it is non-championship................but we've been spoilt with the new "improved" route, so not much chance I guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimW
You'd get a few votes for making Borrowdale a bit shorter. ;)
Good pointQuote:
Originally Posted by Bob
since I only have access to results via this website, I can only go back to 2004 so...
looking at the TOPS Rankings (PowerOf10 as was) for "world class" performances, we find a dearth of athletes having entered the UK All-Time lists since start of 2004:
5k - 2 of 50 (Mo Farah, Andy Baddeley)
10k track - 1 of 51 (Mo Farah)
10k road - 1 of 26 (Mo Farah)
Half Mara - er, none.
Marathon - 2 of 52 (Jon Brown, Thomas Abyu)
without having done the research yet, who wants to bet that I don't find a much more significant proportion of record/close-to-record performances in long-established/same-route fell races...?
[even allowing for the fact that in some years conditions will have made close-to-record performances impossible on some courses]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DazTheSlug
Interesting findings one thing i would consider though is the huge increase in number of those competing in fell running, in the 70's n 80's it was a much smaller field more limited in terms of geography. Compared with road/track id say number have definatly decreased, so with the to sides of the sport going in opposite direction in terms of growth you'd expect more people to be gettin closer to records?
Fair point,Quote:
Originally Posted by TimW
Similar to the Half Tour record which stands. It was clockwise in the record year and anticlockwise in the years since.
Thats two more for the list :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Fury1000
It could be the current crop of top fellrunners aren't interested in doing long distance challenges.
Doh! I've done it myself :D
You'd have thought Simon Booth could threaten the BGR record and one or two like Jonny Bland could maybe go close, but no they have never seemed interested. I'm not criticising them, infact I respect people for having their priorities and not being greedy trying to do everything (which has often been my problem!) but it's an interesting one nonetheless...Quote:
Originally Posted by Baggins
Quote:
Originally Posted by BGSec
Far be it from me to be pedantic, but I think Ian Holmes' time was about 30 seconds faster than Billy Bland's, albeit on a shorter course.
Yes it was. Tom Owens was only a few seconds behind him too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardo
I know this is away from the thread (I don't care :p) but how much longer IS the new Borrowdale route? The fastest I can recall Simon running is 2:49 (correct me if wrong) whereas he ran 2:35 for the old course.
It was rarely ever won in a time slower than 2:45 before the course was lengthened. At least 5 minutes I'd say. Someone must know by how much it affected their Bessyboot split, it's the same course thereafter...
Clearly this would have to include yourself you pratQuote:
Originally Posted by Fury1000
I'll bet 'Holmesy' does!!:D.Its not a case of being modest,every athlete,especially the most successful are bound to compare their achievements with that of others,be it that of this era or another.You make it sound odd that we talk about it to these lengths,but surely this is done in every sport,and to a much greater degree to boot!.Continuity in any form of life,and the comparisons they bring, are always worth discussing and although pointless in the practical sense,are still good fun and interesting,hence the length of this thread!.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimW
I have to say it was always comforting when the 'old stagers' won races against the young pretenders,it gives,or should I say, gave:rolleyes: a bit of hope for when I got old...which alas I an now!.
It's interesting that you mention both Simon Booth and Jonny Bland as, along with Lloyd Taggart I think these two are the best of the current crop of top level fellrunners (with the greatest of respect to the likes of Ian Holmes and Rob Jebb). I just feel that these two probably have the ability to "raise the bar" in the same way that Joss Naylor, Billy Bland, Kenny Stuart, et al. did in the 70's and 80's in both genres of long distance challenges such as the BGR and high profile fell races such as Ben Nevis, Lakes Classics, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimW
Someone in an earlier post on this thread mentioned that the greatest fell runner should be the one you have seen put in the most awesome performance (or words to similar effect), for me personally Simon Booth fit's this bill, talk about make it look easy!!:cool:
the only time I ever get to see the leaders is on out/back races :D - so I would have to vote for Andi Jones (Snowdon) and Si Bailey (Shutlingsloe) who both looked super-human to me :eek:
Yes the same goes for me too.Quote:
Originally Posted by DazTheSlug
I know I'm sad but I have spent a fair bit of time walking around courses and spectating at various races during long spells of injury. This is generally when I've seen the leaders. When I compete they have usually packed up and gone home before I finish:D
I think Jonny has the potential to make history over the very long and rough stuff (like the BGR) if he wanted to, although not on the 'short'er stuff like Ben Nevis; not that he's not very good (!) but his cousin Gavin was a better all-rounder with perhaps more natural ability even than Billy. There's not much Gavin didn't do, although in terms of time spent at the very top he was a bit of a 'John Wild' having just the one great season (1999) where no one could touch him.Quote:
Originally Posted by fellgazelle
Interesting your non-inclusion of Rob Jebb amongst the current best. Rob is a true all rounder although I would agree there have been / are better runners over the long rough stuff, many a time has he begun as favourite in a long classic yet been comprehensively beaten. Where I think he's underestimated is the very short steep stuff, 5 Grasmeres on the bounce is awesome when you consider Rob Hope and Ian Holmes rarely miss this race. People forget the short races and if ever he could win 10 straight, that to me would be as good as Booth's Borrowdale record.
Booth make it look easy? Yeh I'll second that, I watched him come in to the finish to run 2:35 for the old Borrowdale route (40sec off Billy's record) and he looked like he'd just jogged to the shops and back! But I'm sure he was trying really. It's funny, some people are the opposite, they look in agony even when they ARE running easy!
Lloyd Taggert? I believe this lad could do anything in fell running he put his mind to, but would be the first to admit he would need be more selective in his racing. He claims to enjoy his racing programme too much to be prepared to do that and fair enough, I honestly believe some top runners are less bothered than you may think (Toots...) No one has gone about their running with more ambition than myself but when you get there (not that I've got where these lads have! but my own level like...) believe it or not you are still the same person. No one at work or on the street sees you any differently and it doesn't change you as a person. It's great to 'get there' but worthless if you haven't enjoyed it :)
Doesn't Jebb normally suffer with navigational ability rather than running ability on the long stuff???
Sometimes yes although I can think of a few times he's just flattered to deceive when he did go the right way. He does race a lot though, similar to Lloyd when you consider the cycling he does on top which is easy for us to forget. His run at Jura last year shows he CAN run long rough stuff as well as anyone, and with reference to your first point Bryan you can bet the lines he took weren't as good as Rigby's when he got the record so he probably ran a longer course!Quote:
Originally Posted by dominion
Perhaps we just expect him to win everything and wonder why when he doesn't, but he's just not as consistent as Simon over that type of race. Over everything else he is consistently there or thereabouts, apart from the shorter faster races (borderline A Categories e.g. Dufton & Paddys Pole)
I agree with that 100%, absolutely spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by TimW
I have always preferred the longer days out in the hills, that for me is what fell running is all about (obviously this is just my personal opinion and am in no way dissing the shorter races). I take part in plenty of shorter races, but only in the Peak District, if I’m going to travel to Scotland, the Lakes or Wales etc., I need to do at least an hour or two’s running to make it worthwhile.
This is probably why I’m not familiar with Rob Jebb’s record at shorter races and hence didn’t include him in my current best.:o
In my younger days (late 80’s – early 90’s) I could hold my own at cross country particularly over shorter distances up to about 10K, and although I enjoy all types of running it was always big days out in the hills that inspired me (and that includes climbing, walking and mountain biking as well) so I spent most of the rest of my life doing that.
What the top runners choose to focus on is their decision and none of my business, presumably they do what they enjoy too
In my opinion to be considered the best ever you need to be the best over the longer stuff as for me that’s fellrunning and what I enjoy the most.:)
I am fairly sure Rob doesn't look at the Forum but I do wonder what he would think if he did.Quote:
Originally Posted by dominion
No one has said anything derogatory about him (have they?) he'd probably admit his navigating isn't his finest asset, I'm sure it's no worse than lots of fell runners but is more of a problem when you're on your own in front as he so often is. We've given these guys nothing but praise and where we have 'criticised' it's been purely constructive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fury1000
I'm sure (as I said earlier about Ian Holmes) he would laugh at us, thinking haven't you lot got anything better to do! I've had nothing better to do during an enforced week off running but I'll be back in training as of today :D
You are right. I talked to him tonight and he just laughed and asked me "And is Ali the greatest boxer of all time?"Quote:
Originally Posted by TimW
He said you just cannot compare different eras and commented in detail about the changes on the Ben terrain which have affected times. However he did say that he wished he could have raced against Kenny Stuart and added that Kenny did a sub 2.12 marathon and there is no fell runner today who can do that.
We also talked about the British and English Champs. Ian has won 8 English Champ Gold Medals and only one man has won more. Worthy subject for a Profile perhaps?
A certain Mr I Holmes has just won the Stanbury Splash 14 years on the trot.
Is this a record?
HE IS SIMPLY THE BEST.
Me, one day
That's the spirit Tom! Good one :)Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboTom
No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
cos it's FIFTEEN! ;)
Dave Lewis.... the best all round British runner of my generation. He was National Cross Country Champion in 1985, 1989 and 1994. That's real class.:cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by steadyeddy
From the generation before me - I loved watching Ricky Wild race
all these runners were and are fantastic, inspirations to us all. But the name of Joss Naylor stands out for me, if you asked people in the street to name someone associated with fell running, I dare say only the name of Joss Naylor would get a mention, as he is a legend, not to belittle any of the others of course :)
Ha I remember doing a trail race in 2005 from keswick, and me and my club mate leading for the first mile or so along the disussed railway line toward threlkeld, it wasnt until later I noticed the winner of this race was andi jones, he must have been jogging along behind us doing handstands waiting to saunter past us :D
I think these great fell runners are the worlds best athletes, outstanding :cool:
I would say myself really ;)
I'd say those large cranial capacity 105mpw mice from that other thread
I wouldn't expect your average Joe to even understand fell running, let alone have any real idea about who the "best" is! (That would be a bit like that BBC Sports Personality thing ... and just as meaningless!)Quote:
Originally Posted by TheReverand
It's always going to be very difficult to make an objective comparison because all races are different - and the conditions can change from day to day. That's what's so inspiring about this sport. No?
Fell running is very much off the radar, unless you are in the hills/fells on a regular basis and know what you are looking for, Fell running is in a parallel universe and you just don't come across it, though its probably no bad thing.
Dave Lewis did the Heaton Parkrun on sat and is doing leg one of the Bridleway for Rossie this sun.......dont forget 28.10 for a 10k p.b.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danbert
Don't really know too many of the top fell runners, as I'm still new to the sport, but from what I've seen/read, Rob Jebb seems to be one of the best ever, some prolific race results anyways.
Doesn't seem to mess about with anything on roads as well, which is good.
Oh and he likes 2 wheeled racing too!
I would wholeheartedly agree with that and I have been racing the fells for 45 years so Ive seen a lot of great runners come and go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fellhound
Alf Tupper would have been unbeatable don't you think?