Fellsman

[QUOTE=Toreador;481605]Unfortunately not everyone is as sensible as you. For many (walkers as well as runners, though the latter are perhaps more guilty) light weight takes precedence over fitness for purpose.
It's not new - there was a Mountain Trial many years ago when there was only one finisher, coincidentally the one who'd worn a waterproof.[/QUO

What then are the organisers doing? Are they being selective when kit-checking? My experience has been that they are pedantic (and rightly so last weekend) in this area and to having the correct gear. So how is it that this light weight stuff that some entrants favour gets past the scrutinisers? I wonder if Jez could actually lift my rucksack, never mind run with it?

Aha! There are two Fellsman facebook sites. I also couldn't find it because I was looking at the fb page not the fb group. Cheers for the heads up dmd.:)

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Originally Posted by dmd

Maybe, it's one of the first signs of hypothermia.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/23059780048/
Search for Wayne Ogden.

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[QUOTE=caroleengel;481611]

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Originally Posted by Toreador

Unfortunately not everyone is as sensible as you. For many (walkers as well as runners, though the latter are perhaps more guilty) light weight takes precedence over fitness for purpose.
It's not new - there was a Mountain Trial many years ago when there was only one finisher, coincidentally the one who'd worn a waterproof.[/QUO

What then are the organisers doing? Are they being selective when kit-checking? My experience has been that they are pedantic (and rightly so last weekend) in this area and to having the correct gear. So how is it that this light weight stuff that some entrants favour gets past the scrutinisers? I wonder if Jez could actually lift my rucksack, never mind run with it?

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That is the whole point of lightweight kit, so you can run!

Just found this on Youtube. An explanation of why the event was cancelled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UGoZHAEomI

I hadn't realised that a snow blinded person had been rescued on the Fellsman:
http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/201...ering-injuries

me neither. Red and bloodshot eyes , blurred vision and halos round lights. Think it was wind not snow tho. I have had one case of snow blindness and it was much worse- I really did think I was going to be blind. Hope all are OK now- sleep and cool flannel on eyes sorted mine out. Oh and not using my contact lenses

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Originally Posted by caroleengel

As a walker, I cannot understand why the Fellsman had to be canx. mid-walk. I was told it was the number of “incidents” – a broken ankle (could happen leaving your front door) and HYPOTHERMIA. It was a tad windy, it was a cold (very cold) wind, it WASN’T raining. So? This event takes place in the mountains (not the hills) and mountains deserve great respect. I obeyed the official kit list and, after checking the weather forecast, packed half as much again – winter, lined w/p trousers, an extra fleece, a neck warmer and three extra pairs of gloves and some ski-mittens – all I needed was the mittens. Once they were on, I could hold the cold metal LEDLaser in one hand and the Garmin Montana in the other. Warm as toast and spare clothing to boot in the sack. If you want some bad weather – try Scotland.

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This is kind of difficult for the organisers to be honest. For those running I think the cancellation was spot on as runners by necessity don't carry so much heavy weight kit but, for walkers with all the right gear and experience, yeah it could be quite harsh. The runners effected would have been those expecting to do 20 hours plus I guess, which is along time to be out in those conditions. That said it probably deserved cancelling to give the CP marshalls some respite as their job must have been a nightmare. Maybe the answer is to have separate walker and runner tallies?

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Originally Posted by caroleengel

What then are the organisers doing? Are they being selective when kit-checking? My experience has been that they are pedantic (and rightly so last weekend) in this area and to having the correct gear. So how is it that this light weight stuff that some entrants favour gets past the scrutinisers? I wonder if Jez could actually lift my rucksack, never mind run with it?

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Sufficient kit to satisfy the rules is not necessarily sufficient for the conditions encountered. I wasn't there on Saturday, but went for a short low level walk round Malham, wearing far more than was on the Fellsman kit list, and was still cold.

I've made the mistake of going too light on the LAMM a couple of years ago, and it's not a mistake I intend to repeat!

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Originally Posted by Stolly

This is kind of difficult for the organisers to be honest. For those running I think the cancellation was spot on as runners by necessity don't carry so much heavy weight kit but, for walkers with all the right gear and experience, yeah it could be quite harsh. The runners effected would have been those expecting to do 20 hours plus I guess, which is along time to be out in those conditions. That said it probably deserved cancelling to give the CP marshalls some respite as their job must have been a nightmare. Maybe the answer is to have separate walker and runner tallies?

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Thanks Stolly for your sympathy - it was VERY harsh being my 10th and the only one I couldn't finish under my own steam. GUTTED is an understatement.

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Originally Posted by protodoc

That is the whole point of lightweight kit, so you can run!

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...and when you can't?

even following the Miniumum kit list doesn't mean you shouldn't be properly prepared for the conditions in any race

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Originally Posted by caroleengel

Thanks Stolly for your sympathy - it was VERY harsh being my 10th and the only one I couldn't finish under my own steam. GUTTED is an understatement.

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You have to consider the well being of the marshalls and also take into consideration the fact that if you have numerous cases of hypothermia already, then decide to continue, you run the risk of being overwhelmed by freezing competitors with little chance of getting them all to safety fast enough. Not to mention the fact that if someone dies, you as the organiser will face the question "why did you continue the event given the circumstances" and the very real possibility of being held responsible for that persons death. They made the call and I suspect it was the right call.

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Originally Posted by Nicky

Just found this on Youtube. An explanation of why the event was cancelled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UGoZHAEomI

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well done Nicky another win :) ?

re the call by the Fellsman team. I wasn't there so won't comment on this specifically other than to say It sounds like they made the correct call.

any event where the resources are used up evacuating injured and tired have to make this call esp where the event is long and through the night, if they'd have continued and you have one more incident with no backup could result in a tragedy. classic disaster management, where it's not one big thing that goes wrong but lots of small things. I've seen it so many times. you'll always get some one who complains he was properly kitted out but fortuanately the RO has the sense to realise its every competitor he has a duty to.

Spot on Ian. A pissed off competitor is much better than a dead one!

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

...and when you can't?

even following the Miniumum kit list doesn't mean you shouldn't be properly prepared for the conditions in any race

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Agreed, I think we can all agree, "be prepared", which is after all the scouting motto!

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Originally Posted by protodoc

That is the whole point of lightweight kit, so you can run!

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Well said.

In my opinion the kit requirements were perfectly adequate for anyone able to run in this event or at least run/walk in the latter stages. I used the same pack as Jez Bragg and probably had similar weight equipment; I was comfortably cool (as a runner should be) but never cold and I got back just after midnight.

To my mind (feel free to disagree here) the Fellsman is primarily a running not a walking event; entrants are free to walk if they want to but will need to carry significantly warmer clothing. To burden runners with equipment suitable for walking will reduce their ability to run in the first place and exhaust them sooner.

The problem comes when entrants over-estimate their own ability (physically and mentally). They then change from runners to walkers, are generating a lot less heat and suddenly become woefully under-equipped.

I fully support the organiser's decision to stop the event and I feel the kit list is fit for purpose. Whether or not some of the entrants were is perhaps open to debate!

It was called the "hike' for long enough - I think walkers are more than welcome! If people want to run it that's fine but, like so many LDWA events, it is NOT a fell race; it's a long distance challenge, to be completed in the manner of your choice - i.e either walking or running. That choice will obviously determine the type of kit you choose to take but the underlying principle is that really, it's up to the individual to be sensible about their limitations and carry appropriate gear.
As an aside, I'm sure we've all heard of people who dump half their kit after the kit check, possibly the organisers have too, hence the kit check half way round. Should these people be disqualified, putting not only themselves at risk but also the organiser's reputations and the event itself? Maybe even named and shamed in the results?

...That reads as if I think it's an LDWA event; I don't and it isn't!

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Originally Posted by plodding bear

...As an aside, I'm sure we've all heard of people who dump half their kit after the kit check, possibly the organisers have too, hence the kit check half way round. Should these people be disqualified, putting not only themselves at risk but also the organiser's reputations and the event itself? Maybe even named and shamed in the results?

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They should definitely be dq'd, that's a given; not just for their own safety but also for the protection of the organiser.

Naming and shaming seems a bit unpleasant; intent to deceive is often hard to prove and things could turn nasty for any organiser that went down that route.

Maybe just a spell in the stocks then...:w00t:

First time poster and first time entrant to the fellsman. To cut a long story short, I crocked myself before the Hell Gap checkpoint inverting my ankle very heavily when the ground gave way, and retired at Cray. This is the first time I had to retire from an event beyond my control. The hardest part for me was taking one last look at the tally card before handing it over.... well, it wouldn't have been wise to continue with a dodgy ankle as I'd only do more damage and go slower and slower...!

I often take many events for granted when I finish without any problems. This is where I thought the organisation was first class and really showed how well the event is organised behind the scenes. The staff at the checkpoint and the nurses at Threshfield were excellent, attentive and very upbeat despite the weather conditions. I don't know how many bus drivers they were but it certainly would have been a long night for them!

Considering the weather conditions, I can wholeheartily agree with the organisers calling off the event, as their resources were stretched. It would have been unfair on the staff behind the scenes if anything serious did happen later in the event. From what I experienced, I thought it was a fantastic event, and I'd want the event to continue for many years to come for others to experience, it'd only take one very serious incident that could put the event in jeopardy.

Respect to everybody that enterered the event whether they finished or not!

I am an interested outsider and have read all the posts. These seem to concentrate on the entrants responsibilities. But what about the organisers' responsibilities?

To my mind the state of the weather features high on the list of hazards to be encountered by an entrant on the event and the poor state of the weather was forecasted. Did the organisers do a risk assessment beforehand and if so why don't they publicise it? I believe you can enter the Fellsman without any previous experience (someone please correct me if I am wrong). I would have thought as an organiser I would want everyone to know the risks they are taking and that the entrants have already done a qualifying event in the last twelve months e.g. Calderdale Hike, Four Inns, Bullock Smithy rather than accepting entries from the inexperienced.

I realise most events have a disclaimer but the value of these appears to be questionable.

Hey don't criticise the organisers, they were brilliant. And like IanDarkpeak said they made absolutely the right call to pull the plug at exactly the right time. If their resources were becoming so stretched because of continual multiple call outs to pick DNF's up from checkpoints etc then they did the right and proper thing. It was nothing to do with runners/walkers having insufficient equipment and, as for experience, I think you'd have had to have been there to fully appreciate the effects of the weather.

As for qualifying events, what are you on about? Are you saying that to do a long event, you have to prove that you've already done one before? A bit chicken and egg eh? I don't think one single person went into this years fellsman without the right kit and without an idea of what they were facing. But of course it was tough - if it was easily within everybody's capabilities then not many people would want to do it!

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Originally Posted by AndyA

I was comfortably cool (as a runner should be) but never cold and I got back just after midnight.

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I wasn't there, but know people who were, and my understanding is that conditions got significantly worse after you were safely off high ground.

The Fellsman is an event (not a run, nor a walk) which takes safety very seriously. Some would say they go too far - just look at the endless grumbles on here about grouping. But everyone knows this (or could find out with a minimum of research). There are plenty of events around which expect a higher level of experience/competence and which would probably not have cancelled, but if you enter the Fellsman you should expect a bit more "hand holding". That's my view anyway.

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Originally Posted by Alan Greenwood

I would want everyone to know the risks they are taking and that the entrants have already done a qualifying event in the last twelve months e.g. Calderdale Hike, Four Inns, Bullock Smithy rather than accepting entries from the inexperienced.

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Noooooo! There are already too many events that have such a requirement. As Stolly says, how is anyone meant to gain the necessary race experience if they can't enter anything without it?

My comments are meant to be helpful and for the future. Are they valid or not?

No criticism about the organisation behind the decision to cancel.

Well that is an easy one to answer. Start with short events and build up.

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Originally Posted by AndyA

The problem comes when entrants over-estimate their own ability (physically and mentally). They then change from runners to walkers, are generating a lot less heat and suddenly become woefully under-equipped.

I fully support the organiser's decision to stop the event and I feel the kit list is fit for purpose. Whether or not some of the entrants were is perhaps open to debate!

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I agree with that completely AndyA but I also think other factors come into play. For my part I get hot while running really easily and, especially during a long run, I find getting my temperature control just right really quite tricky. There's no easy way to say this but I sweat... a lot - heck I can still remember when I used to go to a gym in Skipton for a while to do body combat and shower all those (mainly horrified) women around me with sweat and be the only person in a class of 40 to finish standing in a pool of sweat at the end (I was politely told to always bring a towell and stand in my own corner after a while). So, even in cold weather, I worry about getting hot and I especially worry about getting hot and then cooling really quickly, as I can then get super cold super fast. I've run the HPM three times and completed the fellsman twice before and pretty much each and every time I've had problems with getting too hot/too cold and its very hard to get it right.

Coupled with that going into this years fellsman I was up for really giving it a good go so I agree I did start quite quickly. I also agree I shot myself in the foot at Dent by not taking on enough food - this though was probably weather related as I was just burning far more calories than expected. Jez Bragg in his Grough write up said the same thing so it wasn't just me ;). Sooo... when I finally did get cold coming over Dodd Fell, coupled with a low energy moment, my mistake (I think) was to put on too much body cover at Fleet Moss and then ironically get too hot running to the Middle Tongue checkpoint. And then gradually freezing on what I found to be mostly unrunnable ground going towards Hell gap.

All the same another valuable experience to put into the memory banks :D

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Originally Posted by Alan Greenwood

Well that is an easy one to answer. Start with short events and build up.

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Do you know anything about the event? Its chock o' block with ultra runners, ultra walkers and BGR finishers. In fact pretty much every runner I spoke to on my particular journey round had completed a Bob flipping Graham!

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Originally Posted by Alan Greenwood

Well that is an easy one to answer. Start with short events and build up.

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Before I ever did any official event I'd done things like the Lake District 3000 footers, which should I have to enter lots of short races (in which I have no interest) to be allowed to do the Fellsman? There are already more than enough safeguards in place - stringent kit checks, grouping, many opportunities for strugglers to drop out.

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Originally Posted by Stolly

If their resources were becoming so stretched because of continual multiple call outs to pick DNF's up from checkpoints etc then they did the right and proper thing.

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DNFs are not an issue. We have systems in place to transport retirees and we do this every year. However when a large number of retirees are also needing First Aid and medical treatment that's when it gets a whole lot more difficult, and however many first aiders you have there is always going to be a limit.

I've got to say that, as one of the least experienced long distance runners, I still went into this knowing what I was up against and I would be very surprised if anyone didn't. I wasn't sure if I would be able to get round and was fully prepared to retire at a checkpoint if I thought I would put myself or anyone else in real danger. As it was, I knew I had the strength to finish even though it was really, really hard and I am very fortunate that I was one of the few slower runners to be allowed to carry on and complete after the cancellation. I carried extra kit because I knew I'd find it harder than a lot of experienced Fellsman entrants. The majority of people I met and talked to were taking the event very seriously, had lots of experience and were well prepared in terms of kit. I feel that the organisation is really brilliant and the pre-event information is detailed and stresses the need to carry decent gear. At some point we all have to take responsibility for ourselves and I think the majority of entrants do but ultimately the Fellsman is an 'event' for runners and walkers and the conditions on the top of Buckden Pike and Great Whernside were truly awful and were getting worse. In my opinion, the organisers made the right decision for the entrants and the staff and I have only got praise for them, they were totally brilliant.

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Originally Posted by Stolly

I agree with that completely AndyA but I also think other factors come into play. For my part I get hot while running really easily and, especially during a long run, I find getting my temperature control just right really quite tricky. There's no easy way to say this but I sweat... a lot - heck I can still remember when I used to go to a gym in Skipton for a while to do body combat and shower all those (mainly horrified) women around me with sweat and be the only person in a class of 40 to finish standing in a pool of sweat at the end (I was politely told to always bring a towell and stand in my own corner after a while). So, even in cold weather, I worry about getting hot and I especially worry about getting hot and then cooling really quickly, as I can then get super cold super fast. I've run the HPM three times and completed the fellsman twice before and pretty much each and every time I've had problems with getting too hot/too cold and its very hard to get it right.

Coupled with that going into this years fellsman I was up for really giving it a good go so I agree I did start quite quickly. I also agree I shot myself in the foot at Dent by not taking on enough food - this though was probably weather related as I was just burning far more calories than expected. Jez Bragg in his Grough write up said the same thing so it wasn't just me ;). Sooo... when I finally did get cold coming over Dodd Fell, coupled with a low energy moment, my mistake (I think) was to put on too much body cover at Fleet Moss and then ironically get too hot running to the Middle Tongue checkpoint. And then gradually freezing on what I found to be mostly unrunnable ground going towards Hell gap.

All the same another valuable experience to put into the memory banks :D

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Hi Stolly - dunno if you've tried Merino wool tops ? I (like you) sweat loads and have to take on loads of water, so cooling has always been an issue. I got into wool tops about 6 years ago and I didn't know it then, but I do now - when they get wet, the natural fibres swell up (I assume they absorb sweat) thereby keeping you warmer. Yes, warmer when wet ! I've run in some pretty stupid conditions when everyone around me is wearing a jacket and I've just got my (Icebreaker Mondo ?) top on (and windproof gillet).

I would never go back. They cost a bit, but I buy one a year and now have various vintages in various states of decay ! Apologies if I'm teaching you to suck eggs...

There's been a good healthy debate on here about all the issues in this years event, and as a first timer, I have to say the professionalism of the organisation and volunteers is staggering. How do they get so many helpers ?!? Redshaw was checkpoint of the year for me too - thought there might be debate about that on here but not. Now - there was one other control point (remain nameless) where I walked in and they looked at me gone out. No smiles only grunts. It wasn't a problem, in fact I found it funny. Anybody would have thought that they had to run 60 miles !!

Great to be back in time for last orders too - something I've heard other people talk about, but never thought I'd achieve !

Race organiser: you obviously need to be very very organised I suppose, unflappable, good in a crisis, a great multi tasker. You must be also very, very public spirited, want to provide a great experience for a lot of strangers. You must also have have a great love of and belief in your event, willing to work long hours for no reward...

Do you also need to be very thick-skinned as well?

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Originally Posted by MarkL

Race organiser: you obviously need to be very very organised I suppose, unflappable, good in a crisis, a great multi tasker. You must be also very, very public spirited, want to provide a great experience for a lot of strangers. You must also have have a great love of and belief in your event, willing to work long hours for no reward...

Do you also need to be very thick-skinned as well?

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..and not be swayed by pressure from people on the outside

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Originally Posted by IanDarkpeak

Good to hear you are ok Stolly :)

I've long thought that we ought to have a thread on treatment of Hypothermia. It's probably the biggest problem we can face in the mountains.

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yeah good call Stolly.. Not a great response from Dog Breath.. any knocking of DNF'ers makes it seem like DNF is some admitting of failure.. so we get people battling on not wanting to lose face..

Agree Ian.. I think this should be regularly covered in fellrunner.. I've suggested it before too..

For runners I think it's a huge problem. Didn't a runner die in Skye a few years ago? twisted his ankle and died of hypothermia.

It was only by luck and great camaraderie that know one died in the welsh 1000m peaks race the other year..

I don't think people realise how serious it is to lie down on the floor in just waterproofs in cold weather.. do it as a test in your garden after a run.. see how quickly the heat strips out of you..

We did our first aid course with Nicola Pickering from the peak, cold time of year, and lay as 'casualties'.. even wearing warm clothing you chilled off so fast..

Well I think the r.o. Has all of the above attributes and displayed them admirably and the event was a credit to her and the army of helpers who as said earlier do this for the love of it. If these people are not happy with it then why not run your own anytime challenge/route or even an event then come back and see if your veiw is the same ! I can't believe there's any -ve remarks on the way this event was handled. I was run/jogging with enough kit to run and keep warm the same as most mid packers and wouldve been gutted to be pulled out well into the event but this event isn't run for any one person and I think the call was the right one for a few reasons. I have nothing but praise for my first fellsman and thanked as many staff on the way out as I saw. And will be back next year on this years expeirence alone . Weldone again to all involved.

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Originally Posted by old un

Well I think the r.o. Has all of the above attributes and displayed them admirably and the event was a credit to her and the army of helpers who as said earlier do this for the love of it. If these people are not happy with it then why not run your own anytime challenge/route or even an event then come back and see if your veiw is the same ! I can't believe there's any -ve remarks on the way this event was handled. I was run/jogging with enough kit to run and keep warm the same as most mid packers and wouldve been gutted to be pulled out well into the event but this event isn't run for any one person and I think the call was the right one for a few reasons. I have nothing but praise for my first fellsman and thanked as many staff on the way out as I saw. And will be back next year on this years expeirence alone . Weldone again to all involved.

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Well said old un

I was pulled out at Park Rash and I was really disapointed but fully understood why it had been done - there were some very poorly looking people at the later checkpoints.

The organisers and checkpoint staff did an amazing job under very tough circumstances - can't thank them enough.

It is very easy to moralise about people not taking enough clothes etc and maybe some people didn't but ask yourself how many times have you have gone out for a run and not taken that extra layer or decided it was only a short one so I won't bother with the head torch today and just got away with it. I bet none of us can honestly say we never have.

I was suprised by how bad the conditions got - fortunately I did have what I thought in the morning was totally excessive gear and remained warm enough.

Race organisers definately made the right decision -a very very hard decision indeed.

Are there any results anywhere - I suspect not just yet, cannot imagine trying to put all that into order!

My sport sunday picture confirms I had the right gear by the way. Here's me just starting up Whernside wearing my Ron Hill top with a long sleeved thermal underneath. In my bag was my wind proof, waterproof, woolly hat and sealskin gloves all of which I later deployed.

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/2041/fellsman20047.jpg

Thanks for the Merino woolen thermal tip AlanB. It sounds just the job. And as for Dogbreath, his smugnessometer obviously overflowed :)

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Originally Posted by Twinkletoes

Race organisers definately made the right decision -a very very hard decision indeed.

Are there any results anywhere - I suspect not just yet, cannot imagine trying to put all that into order!

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Think Suzanne Carter said on the Facebook page she was going to work on it tonight