Mistlites aren't waterproof, neither the keks nor the coyt.Quote:
Originally Posted by wycoller
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Mistlites aren't waterproof, neither the keks nor the coyt.Quote:
Originally Posted by wycoller
They do not have to be. Under the rules. From what I recollect they have to be "marketed as waterproof" which they clearly are.Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
Taped seams could be the problem, but the rules should not reference technology or construction which changes.
Again, poor drafting creates confusion.
"Waterproof to or in excess of 10000 head, and marketed as such" eliminates confusion., and sets a verifiable standard.
For what its worth I totally agree with AI as an engineer myself and with some knowledge/qualification in H&S ,a badly worded legal document just opens you up for all sorts of problems.you could compare it with a self written Will, where a savy solicitor would pull it to threads and your estate doesn't go to your intended recipient.
Rubbish!!Quote:
Originally Posted by luxinterior
I've been following this thread with interest and AI makes some very valid points which would be folly to ignore now. He has also made them eloquently and in a non-confrontational way which is to his credit.
As Iain mentions the forum is about two way communications so I hope the committee are taking note - afterall the committee are there to repressent the views and wishes of the membership and should respond accordingly.
Why don't those with all the knowledge and expertise that seem to be on the forum rewrite the rules so that they are lawyer proof and then send a copy to the FRA Committee for their approval, rather than asking the "amateurs" of the FRA committee to rewrite the rules again?
If the rules were to be re-written by the FRA Committee you can be sure that someone on here will still complain about them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wycoller
They're great and 5 years ago they used to be waterproof (although not having taped seams they were never sufficient for a mountain marathon), but the meaning of waterproof has moved on ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
But thank you for proving my point, that the FRA needs to make people aware of this one (the majority of vocal people on here apparently think it is obvious and needs no explanation).
And yes they are in practice waterproof (enough) as many of us know from extreme weather outings; they wouldn't have been top of my list to replace/upgrade.
The new rules are for next year, so they should pass a kit check this year, unless the RO specifies waterproof and sticks rigorously to the new definition with taped seams even on your leggings, which would be mean if you ask me.
Personally I think kit checks should allow slightly substandard kit with a warning for an interim period. Not sure that ROs would be comfortable with that though.
And this has already been discussed a few pages back and in the equipment section.
To be fair on those suggesting a re-write (albeit only recently and after the consultation window has passed, which is far from ideal, but nevertheless probably worthy of a listen): I believe they are not suggesting that another bunch of 'amateurs' (i.e. forumites) re-write it, but rather that the FRA as a Ltd company, like any other reasonable Ltd company, employ/engage a legal professional (with appropriate professional indemnity) to re-write it in more robust legalise, particularly if the overriding intention of the new rules is to increase (in a reasonable manner) the all-round protection for all Stakeholders. (FRA, RO, Competitors, etc); actual physical protection as well as litigation protection.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lecky
Is that a fairer summary e-assessment of the last few days?
****
PS. On a lighter note, I will now noisily disappear from this thread. BURP! (I couldn't find a suitable noisy emoticon).
Here you go Lecky ;)
I was asked to make an email submission around the rules, race specs and how they are framed of which this is a part made some time ago. I received no acknowledgement and no feedback.
Perhaps you'll give it a once over and let me know.
FELL AND HILL RUNNING RULES
RULE 400 DEFINITION OF TERMS
(1) An ‘‘official UKA Fell Race’’ is one held under UKA Rules for
Competition.
(2) Race Categories
A fell race is one run on fell, hill or mountain terrain and shall be categorised
as follows:
Category A
(a) Should average not less than 50m of climb per km.
(b) Should not have more than 20% of the race distance on road.
(c) Should be at least 1.5km in length.
Category B
(a) Should average not less than 25m of climb per km.
(b) Should not have more than 30% of the race distance on road.
Category C
(a) Should average not less than 20m of climb per km.
(b) Should not have more than 40% of the distance on road.
(c) Should contain some genuine fell terrain.
International Races
International races affiliated to the World Mountain Running Association,
and selection races organised by National Associations for International Races.
(3) Race Length Categories
(a) A Category ‘‘L’’ (long) race is 20km or over.
(b) A Category ‘‘M’’ (medium) race is over 10km but less than 20km.
(c) A Category ‘‘S’’ (short) race is 10km or less.
(4) Clubs
A Club as referred to in these Rules indicates a Club which is affiliated to
UKA or one of its constituent bodies.
(5) National Committees
For the purpose of these rules the term ‘‘National Committees’’ refers to:
(a) Fell Runners’ Association Ltd. (England)
(b) Scottish Athletics Ltd. Hill Running Commission
(c) Welsh Athletics Ltd.
(d) Northern Ireland Mountain Running Association
Fell Running Rules
RULE 401 GENERAL
Rules 1–24 apply to all Fell Running competitions held under UKA Rules.
RULE 402 CLUBS
A Fell Running Club is defined as one which annually declares to the
appropriate Association that it intends to compete in team competition in Fell Running events.
-0
RULE 403 OPEN EVENTS
(i)Open Fell races must be advertised and decided under these Rules.
Appropriate entry forms must be used for all individual entries. Inter-Club races
for which no entry fee is charged are not considered Open Events.
(ii) All official UKA Fell Races must be registered with one of the National
Committees. The registration shall be effected by supplying to the nominated
officer of the relevant body details of the race on the form provided and by its
subsequent appearance in a published calendar /fixture list /magazine supplement.
A nominal charge may be made to cover calendar publication expenses
and race insurance.
RULE 404 ENTRIES
(1) All entries must include the full name, address, date of birth and
affiliated Club of the competitor unless unattached.
(2) Upon changing surname competitors must, for one year, insert both
names on all entry forms.
RULE 405 INFRINGEMENTS
No athlete shall join a fell race who is not qualified to compete.
Athletes infringing this rule shall be liable to expulsion from any race under the
jurisdiction of UKA and could render their Club liable to disqualification.
RULE 406 THE START
The start should be signalled by the firing of a gun or other similar apparatus.
An athlete crossing the starting line before the starting signal is given shall be liable to disqualification.
RULE 407 AGE GROUPS
For Junior Championships and other Junior races young athletes are grouped into age
categories. The Competition Year extends from 1st January to 31st December in
the same year.
(i) Under 12 Boys and Girls. Fell competitions for Under 12’s shall be confined to competitors
who are aged 10 or 11 on the 31st December prior to the commencement of the competition year as defined above.
(ii) Under 14 Boys and Girls. Fell competitions for Under 14’s shall be confined to competitors
who are aged 12 or 13 on the 31st December prior to the commencement of the competition year as defined above.
(iii) Under 16 Boys and Girls. Fell competitions for Under 16’s shall be confined to competitors
who are aged 14 or 15 on the 31st December prior to the commencement of the competition year as defined above.
(iv) Under 18 Boys and Girls. Fell competitions for Under 18’s shall be confined to competitors
who are aged 16 or 17 on the 31st December prior to the commencement of the competition year as defined above.
(v) Senior Men and Women
A Senior is a competitor who is aged at least 18 on the date of the competition
(vi) Senior Open Races are age on day of race and juniors who meet this criteria are then able to run in the Open Senior Race so long as the race does not exceed the distances set out in rule 408
(vii) A veteran is a man or a woman aged 40 or over on the date of competition.
RULE 408 MAXIMUM DISTANCES
(i)Up and Down Races
Age Group Maximum distance
Under 12 years 3000 metres
Under 14 years 5000 metres
Under 16 years 7000 metres
Under 18 years 10000 metres
Seniors Unlimited
(ii)Uphill Only Races
Age Group Maximum distance
Under 12 years 2000 metres
Under 14 years 4000 metres
Under 16 years 5000 metres
Under 18 years 6000 metres
Seniors Unlimited
RULE 409 TEAM SCORING
The team scoring the least number of points, according to the positions in
which the members of the team finish whose positions are to count, shall be the
winner; the positions of the non-scoring members of a team, whether it finishes
all of its members or not, shall be scored in computing the totals of the other
teams. In the event of a tie on points, the team whose last scoring member
finishes nearest first place shall determine the result.
RULE 410 MIXED COMPETITION
Licences for mixed competitions will be considered provided all competitors
are 17 years or over.
RULE 411 RELAY COMPETITIONS
In fell relay races where a team includes a runner who has already
run a stage of the race, that team shall not, subject to the entry conditions of the
race, be included in the results. Competitors must compete within their respective
age groups as defined in Rule 407.
RULE 412 TEAM RACES
An Open Team Race is one open to all affiliated Clubs within a defined
geographical area. All scoring members must be eligible first claim members of
that Club.
RULE 413 REGISTRATION Of Fell Running LEAGUES
All Fell Running Leagues must be registered with the respective National
Association, setting out its Constitution, together with the names, addresses and
telephone numbers of its Officers. These details must be updated immediately
following each Annual General Meeting of that League. Before any new Fell Running Leagues are formed at any level, the organisers must apply to the
appropriate National Association prior to commencing activities. The application
must identify the aims and objectives of the League and include a copy of the
draft or agreed Constitution, together with the names and addresses of those
persons intending to establish that League.
RULE 414 TRANSPONDER TIMING
(1) The use of transponder timing systems is permitted provided that:
(a) the system requires no action by an athlete during the competition, at
the finish or at any stage in the result processing.
(b) the weight of the transponder and its housing carried on the athlete’s
uniform,race number or shoe is not significant.
(c) none of the equipment used at the start, along the course or at the
finish line constitutes a significant obstacle or barrier to the progress
of the athlete.
(2) At the finish the athletes shall still be placed in order in which any part of
their bodies (i.e. the torso as distinguished from head, neck, arms, hands, feet and
legs )reaches the vertical plane of the nearer edge of the finish line. The Referee
shall be final arbiter regarding the finishing order of the athletes.
(3) In competitions where the event promoter chooses to use a transponder
timing system, each competitor must wear the necessary equipment, as directed
by the event promoter. Failure to wear the necessary equipment as issued may
result in disqualification.
RULE 415 : OBJECTIONS AND APPEALS
(1) Any runner or affiliated Club objecting to the conduct or the result of a
race shall raise that objection with the Race Referee immediately after the event
or immediately the results are displayed.
(2) (a) If the results are not available at the conclusion of the event, then
such an appeal may be made at any time up until 14 days after the
publication of the results.
(b) In such cases the appeal should be made to the Race Referee through
the Meeting Organiser.
(3) The decision of the Referee shall be final.
(4) If, as a result of an appeal under (i) above, a runner is disqualified or the
race result otherwise altered, the Referee shall inform the Meeting Organiser of
that amended result, in writing, within 14 days. The Meeting Organiser must then
inform the individual(s) affected by the decision and, if required, take steps to
recover prizes or awards made to the athlete(s).
It wouldn't let me post all in one, so here's the end bit.
RULE 416 : Safety Requirements
Official UKA Fell Races must be organised to comply with the Mountain
Running Advisory Group’s Safety Requirements.
RULE 417 Additional Rules
All competitors must obey any additional rules drawn up by the race
organisers for that particular fell race.
RULE 418 RETIREMENT FROM A RACE
All competitors must ensure that if they retire from a fell race for any reason
the fact is reported immediately to the race officials, including those at the finish.
Race organisers MUST report infringements to this Rule to the appropriate
National Secretary.
RULE 419 DISCIPLINARY PROCEDURES
Upon notification of the breaking of any UKA Rule at an official UKA Fell
Race by competitors or organisers, the relevant National Committee is
empowered to take whatever corrective action is deemed necessary. There is a
right of appeal to the UKA Mountain Running Advisory Group. The following
time scales shall be adhered to in any such process:
(a) Notification shall be in writing to the relevant National Secretary
within fourteen days of the event in question.
(b) The relevant National Committee shall investigate and conclude its
findings and make a decision within seven weeks of the event in
question.
(c) Notification of the National Committee’s decision will be given to
the parties concerned within eight weeks of the event in question.
The above are maximum time scales; the process should be expedited as
rapidly as possible, hopefully in a briefer time-span than above.
I'm sure that is very interesting, but somewhat irrelevant to the issue of the safety requirements, which is what I believe this thread is about.
The section about Transponders (414) would stop organisers from using SportIdent. Some think this is a cost effective extra measure that would add to safety. As other transponder units can't easily be carried to the top of a mountain and cost thousands, they are not yet appropriate, to my mind - and I've looked into them.