No you shouldn't sue them Chris. They should be allowed to make their own choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by CL
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No you shouldn't sue them Chris. They should be allowed to make their own choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by CL
That would only be true under the assumption that's people's views remain the same as they get older. The reality is that for many people they change over time. Young people are more likely to be idealistic but as they grow older their views often change as they gain more experience of the real world. There are many examples of mainstream politicians and journalists who held far left views in their student days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
As for 16 and 17 year olds having the vote in the referendum, why should they have? The age of voting in elections in the UK is 18. Of course it is true that in the Scottish referendum the Government made this concession to the SNP as part of the negotiations for holding it. (The SNP has since introduced it for Scottish Parliament elections.) But let's be honest the SNP only wanted it because they thought it would benefit them in terms of votes. Had polls suggested that 16 and 17 year olds were in favour of staying in the Union they would have been a lot less enthusiastic. I wonder if you would be quite as keen if 16 and 17 year olds were thought to be in favour of leaving the EU.
The fact is a decision was reached in a fair election organised under a typical UK franchise. Isn't it about time you just accepted the result?
Unlike the normal drift to the political right with age, I think people's ideas on Brexit - given that it is binary, and not a spectrum - will be more fixed. As to the voting age it is of course just a matter of opinion, but I think 16 and 17 year olds should be able to vote - it would be part of their education and give them a sense of responsibility, and, after all, education issues affect them more than the rest of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
We don't have to accept the result of an election we do not like, we can hope for a vote of no confidence/lots of defectors to the opposition and so on - and that is in a situation where we will vote again in 5 years time at the most. The Brexit result is dodgy on so many levels - how vague does a referendum have to be, how low can the turn out be, and how many blatant lies have to have been told before the result should be declared null and void and the whole referendum question clarified and repeated?
We are drifting away from Brexit now, but I actually think there should be a single age of reckoning in the law for adulthood. We have so many inconsistencies in terms of the age of consent for sex, drinking alcohol, driving, competing in senior competition....Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
I'm open to debate on what the age should be, however I tend to think that the current crop of 16/17 year olds overall, are less aware of many of the issues that need to be considered at a general election and so I would have a universal 18 year old limit.
Even at 18, there are question marks over how many would have a grasp of the issues. We have seen that questioned even with older voters following the referendum.
I note a discussion on the Daily Politics yesterday about the election of an NUS delegate at Durham University. Average turnout in these elections across the UK is 4% and the huge surge in interest at Durham only lifted it to a 10% turnout.
He stood on the slogan "the NUS is a bit shit isn't it".
Based on what evidence? Personally I find it hard to believe that while a person's general political views may naturally change over time they won't with regard to the European Union and they will remain just as idealistic. If you're theory is right it would mean that over time the general population would become more europhile. In fact the opposite is true, and over the last 10 to 20 years the general public has become more eurosceptic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
As you say it is a matter of opinion. Personally I think 16 is too young. After all we don't allow people to drink alcohol or get married without permission until they are 18. The overwhelming majority of countries around the world set 18 as the minimum age for voting in national elections. If we were to change it then we should make the decision for all UK elections not just for specific ones for reasons of political gain for one side. I don't remember there being the same clamour to alter the voting age before the last general election.Quote:
As to the voting age it is of course just a matter of opinion, but I think 16 and 17 year olds should be able to vote - it would be part of their education and give them a sense of responsibility, and, after all, education issues affect them more than the rest of us.
It's a free country, you're perfectly entitled to not like the result of an election. What would be a scandal however would be if those in positions of power were to overturn the will of the electorate.Quote:
We don't have to accept the result of an election we do not like, we can hope for a vote of no confidence/lots of defectors to the opposition and so on - and that is in a situation where we will vote again in 5 years time at the most. The Brexit result is dodgy on so many levels - how vague does a referendum have to be, how low can the turn out be, and how many blatant lies have to have been told before the result should be declared null and void and the whole referendum question clarified and repeated?
It's a reasonable point that you make that in most elections we get the opportunity to change our minds in five years time. Obviously in a referendum like this that is impractical.
In fact those voting in the last referendum on the EU in 1975 had to wait 41 years before having an opportunity to vote again and most of us have never had a say on the EU at all. The referendum was long overdue not least because the EU is such a different animal from what it was in 1975 when it was little more than a trading bloc. Since then successive Governments have given away sovereignty without ever allowing the electorate a say - sometimes promising a referendum on a treaty and then reneging on the promise as the Labour Government so shamefully did after 2005.
The point of the referendum being vague is quite a strange one to me, as it couldn't have been clearer, stay or leave.
It's the same question as in the 70s.
You can argue about what type of leave, hard brexit, soft brexit etc, but what type of Remain? What was the next treaty likely to contain? As MR says the EU in 2016 is not what we voted on in the 70s.
The real point is that a referendum gives a direction. The Government has to deliver a package and will be judged accordingly.
It will be judged accordingly at the next general election.
We will also see more detailed trade policy, immigration policy and maybe even manifesto commitments to fully or partially rejoin.
I was just too young to vote at the last referendum in 1975 and too immature to have well former political views, perhaps I still am because I don't think my views have changed very much at all. I was a young Liberal at the time and definitely didn't want to join Europe although I don't know what the parties position was. Nowadays my views tend to be much more issue based than along any particular party lines.
I know. Just making a point to the Liberals.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Great tune stags. I hope Commodity (Longdogs) hasn't been riding her motorbike on that Teachers. She'll fail the breathalyser. Oh and is she still barred from Tescos? :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
If Mike-T and the Remainers had won the vote we wouldn't have heard a squeak from them. They were all for the vote when they were certain they were going to win but come up with all sorts of scenarios and conditions for voting when they lose.
And for all the chit chat on here about economics. It is a testament to the British people who voted out that they didn't put money (economics)before what they thought was right. They knew they might take a hit financially but they were prepared to do it to set this country on the right course. The European Union was corrupt and we couldn't let it go on.
Yes this country has corruption problems too but by culling the European Union we've hopefully made it a little easier to deal with them.