We kept the pound for a reason. That reason is now becoming clear.
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We kept the pound for a reason. That reason is now becoming clear.
Today juncker was blaming Norman Lamont for our leaving, for failing to keep in the band of the ERM during soros's speculative attack. Juncker does confuse carts and horses when it suits him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
Fascist!Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
If the EU decides to get involved with this, I wonder how Oracle will react? Will this be another case of the EU sticking its nose into the workings of individual countries?
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...rbnb-expansion
But if the EU compromises 'Oracle' they sow the seeds of their own destruction anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Oracle
Yes - the first time I came across this sort of random letting was up in Troon. I was working there briefly and a home owner told me how they welcomed the big gold tournaments as they could let out their house, and take a holiday effectively free of charge for the moment they received in rental.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
I've since found out it happens all over the world, but here in the UK at other venues for the big golf tournaments, Wimbledon etc.
So the concept has been long established.
That doesn't mean it doesn't need managing.
But the issues raised by it and the factors that might need some managing are different whether you live in Dubrovnik, Ullapool, or London.
So it should be left to the local politicians to handle. It doesn't need pan European policy, as how will you deal with it? It cannot be the same solution for Barcelona and Asturias.
Indeed
It is tackled at local level in some countries.
In Portugal you now need an " alojamento locale" - a letting license to advertise on airbnb or tripadvisor: the platforms cannot advertise without it by law.
That gives the state a measure of control, and a way it can track undeclared income.
It is controlled at council level.
The EU does not need to be involved. But then that is true of most of what the EU does. The subsidiarity declared in Lisbon agreement has always been ignored in Brussels in the relentless empire building,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Really this thread should be let die but this headline is too funny to ignore.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ditch-backstop
[DUP] Brexit spokesman Sammy Wilson also urged Boris Johnson and Jeremy Hunt to ‘stand up to’ Dublin over issue
I have this right do I? The UK is one of the most powerfull countries in the world and Ireland is a tiny insignificant island of 4.5 million people off the west coast of Europe?
The DUP really do need to get off their ideological high horse.
Meanwhile democracy in the EU flourishes.
https://www.theparliamentmagazine.eu...ean-parliament
Maybe we should take their lead and refuse to recognise all the NATs MPs that go to the Commons :D
Well it is Ireland backed by the rest of the EU, an organisation well known for its bullying tactics. Just ask the Greeks and now Switzerland. But yes Ireland's ultra hard-line stance hasn't helped.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
I know, fancy not wanting their rights trampled all over. How unreasonable of them.Quote:
The DUP really do need to get off their ideological high horse.
[QUOTE=Muddy Retriever;652038 and now Switzerland.[/QUOTE]
I'd be all over this if I was the UK Government. I think this is the EU shooting itself in the foot.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...ortunity-city/
Come on Boris. Get us out please.
Someone has let Gina Miller and her ilk out of their boxes again. They still don't get it.
I did not vote to leave the EU with a deal. I voted to leave!
Come on Boris, get us over the line.
OMG, the lunatics have escaped again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llani Boy
Honestly, I do not get it at all, please would someone explain what the benefits are to leaving the EU in practical terms?
How is it going to make everyones lives better?
All I see at the moment is that I will have to close a portion of my business down and just deal with the UK instead of the whole of Europe because I don't operate at the level that will make it worthwhile to continue with all the additional red tape. I make just enough to live off, if I have to start accounting on a different level and paying taxes to each of the different states it's going to make it untenable. Right now it fees like a complete nightmare.
Please spell it out like you would to a child because I am totally confused and I keep asking people and none of them can give me absolute concrete undeniable facts, but you lot seem like a smart intelligent group of people so I have some hope that I might finally get some top quality answers.
Don't worry GeoffB I've been recaptured.Quote:
Originally Posted by GeoffB
Seeing that Gina Miller on the T.V. this morning caused a gasket to blow and some Brexit vitriol seeped out.
Smoked Mackerel for lunch has fixed the problem. All well now!
If you can find the Oracle, he'll put you right.Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerMouse
I thought Pythia was a priestess and died along time ago? I think you are right, I have about as much chance of getting a rational answer from a mythical decomposed corpse as I do from an Brexiteer ;)
I do not see how putting up barriers to trade is a good thing at all, facetiousness aside, if the Oracle is a person, perhaps a member here? Then I really am keen to hear exactly how leaving the EU is going to improve things for us all and specifically for me help my business and improve my life. Right now it all just works seamlessly and I don't have to do anything other than produce, sell and ship - it doesn't matter if my customer is in the UK or anywhere in Europe; it just works! I don't get customers from further afield because of import duty, taxes and postal service fees which make it unfeasible. Am I really looking at losing 80% of my customer base when we leave the EU? This is a genuine question that no one seems to be able to answer.
Also, if I have to spend any time at all doing anything more to comply with any new regulations my business borks because I am already running at the limits of profitability. Every minute counts and has a very real financial cost associated with it.
I don't have a problem running this part of my business this way whatsoever, it works for me. It's probably not what most folk would consider a serious business, but it doesn't need to be right :)
Unless of course the whole idea is to put people like me out of business and hand everything over to Jeff Bezos who doesn't have to pay any taxes or contribute to society in any way. Is that it?
I'm a one man band. I sell home and abroad. I also sell items sourced from the EU. Because I sell around the world, and occasionally import, I'm familiar with the processes.Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerMouse
Brexit shouldn't stop you, unless you are in a really niche business.
What's the nature of your business? I might be able to offer some pointers.
[email protected] if you want to email and keep it off here.
Thanks!! I have several thing that I do to keep my head above water:
1) Web design and programming work, this is fine, all my customers are in the UK. Actually all but one in the last few years.
2) I make synthesisers it is a 'niche of a niche of a niche' market - I source parts from the UK, US, Germany and Thailand, sell to customers in UK and Europe. The margins are tight to say the least. If my profits are hit in any way it will become impossible, hmm, I should say impractical and unprofitable, to compete with small machine based production runs.
The company I work for has already moved some of its manufacturing business from the UK to Germany in readiness for a no deal Brexit, because our (die-hard Tory) MD realises that they'll no longer be able to compete with other European suppliers. Companies order 'just-in-time' and nobody can afford to have goods sat waiting in a long queue at border control.Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerMouse
This is the tip of the iceberg! Just search online for companies that have left the UK because of Brexit, it's no joke!
I am not into fear mongering and all the high drama that the newspapers like to bandy about, but it does not look good, however you look at it!
Unless...
I am missing something?
I am going to make this my last post on this subject for a while and give others a chance to read and respond, so once again, how is Brexit a good thing in practical terms?
I am willing to search and read, but I need some pointers because I can't find *anything* that makes any sense.
Thank you :)
Phew, where to start?
The problem DM is it depends who you ask. Just as in any group there will be mixture of people and opinions ranging from swivel-eyed loonies to rational, thoughtful types. Its much more difficult to concisely say why something should change instead of staying put with the status quo. And if life teaches you anything, it is that people are naturally risk averse. Gurus make a very good living out of teaching change management.
So, I could, if inclined, go over once more why I made what was, to me, a rational thoughtful choice when I put my vote on that bit of paper. But it probably would be pretty meaningless to you because your viewpoint/environment/personal persuasions may be very different to mine.
So, in the end, individuals batting their own personal viewpoints around doesn't really help anyone. Its only when you take a significant overview like, say, a referendum that you can get an averaged opinion. The averaged opinion for this question was out...but by a tiny majority. In my view that majority is too small to be relevant. But the people asking the question did not think to set a meaningful majority!
.... nor to ask a specific enough question. As to the general ignorance on the issue - this applies to the public and the politicians - and all the lies that were told - but the general feeling seems to be it is too late to start again. Yet it is the only real answer to the potential problems we face. This constant " the public just wants us to get on with it ...." - how do you know - have you asked them? Sure, the public is sick to death of it, but that might mean they want it stopped altogether rather than proceeded with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
too true Mike....but this is the politicians gambit. The current situation is a classic filibuster. But in this case you cannot 'talk out' a referendum result. Its not like a Bill. But then again, government is not bound by a referendum result. Talk about the horns of a dilemma. The government is damned if it does, damned if it doesn't all because of the split vote. The real twister is a second referendum won't heal the harm.
The majority of the voters asked to leave.
It's not up for renegotiation.
Just LEAVE.
And yes it is as simple as that.
Indeed, opinions are like... ;)
But honestly, I am not *really* interested in opinions, although they do make for good discussions, the reality is my livelihood depends on concrete answers to the specific questions I posted earlier.
Everyone has something to say, but no one seems to actually know anything?
===
My opinion is that leaving is a step in the wrong direction, just as we were starting to feel like a European Community. Immigration is a clouded issue and quite frankly the multicultural society we live in is one of the things I am most proud of about living here. I have lived in the middle of Cheetham Hill in Manchester and while it was not free of problems, it really was wonderful! So lovely to see people from all over the world getting on just fine - this is how people really are. Such a shame we have a very vocal racist and prejudiced minority that seems to get far too much attention. I dread to think what is going to happen to our hospitals without immigrant workers. I don't want the archetypal arrogant obnoxious slob looking after me, no thanks, I would much rather have a conscientious eastern european who actually cares about themselves and their work.
I am utterly dismayed that all the EU social funding is going to go, so much good work has been done under that banner, some of which I have been proud to be part of that I am also certain would not have happened otherwise - we tried and failed before. I sincerely hope we don't regress all the progressive laws and regulations that have been brought in under the EU, 20-20-20, REACH, RoHS, Temporary Agency Workers Directive, Working Time Directive, GDPR, to name but a few... if our government reverts them that would be a tragedy and pretty much amount to crimes against humanity.
For sure the EC absolutely is not perfect, the laws and regulations are not perfect either, but at least as a member state we have a say and some influence over what happens. Being out and just having a trade deal like Norway for example, I can just see us not being able to do anything about it but comply anyway, I mean if you have to comply with RoHS to sell your electronic goods in the EU, then you will still have to comply even if we leave.
Finally, what are the farmers going to do without the bailouts?
It seems so wrong on so many levels :(
Having said that I am open minded and really keen to hear what will actually be good about it, got to make the best of things hey, I want something to look forward to instead of medicine shortages and food price increases, so... any practical examples like the ones I have given above but that are about why it will be good?
A referendum can't be more specific than leave or remain, just like in Scotland at the indi ref.
It is then up to the Politicians to deliver on the result.
Imagine the consternation in Scotland had they won in 2014. Then the Uk Govt insisted on a Withdrawal Agreement which gave us legal oversight and a veto over the final arrangement etc.
Anyway, there's a danger of going over old ground for about the 5th time so I'd best quit now :D
So what you are perhaps looking at if you stick to the same sources are some initial extra import costs from Germany.Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerMouse
You may well see lower ones, although not perhaps immediately, from your other sources as they are outside of the EU.
It depends how the EU tariffs on these compare with those set out by the UK in their schedule published earlier this year.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/t...exit-published
You could consider sourcing the German components elsewhere if they are in a higher tariff rate group.
Then you have customs issues. But you will be familiar with them now if you import from outside the EU.
I have a similar issue with CO2 Cylinders for lifejackets which I buy from Germany. At 4% duty, it isn't so onerous and perhaps a 1% cost of customs clearance.
However, I have cheaper prices from Japan and China, but I have to buy almost double per order. The 4% might tip me towards the Far East, but then my German supplier might sharpen their pencil.
I also have a US option that I've never even pursued. Maybe I will.
It's a bit like a fell race. It might be tough, challenging, risk laden... but with the right approach it could be a real rewarding experience.
That's interesting - thanks Witton Park!!
To be honest, the worst part of all this is the exchange rate, the £ has fallen so much agains the dollar and euro that I might be screwed anyway. Fortunately I have quite a lot of parts in stock, so I am not down and out yet.
Tge main problem is parts scarcity, I don't really have much choice but to source them from 'wherever I can get them'. One project often involves orders from 4 or 5 companies around the world - this stuff is not easy to just do. It took me a good few years to feel confident enough in my building skills to be able to sell the things, I will feel sad if I have to give it up because it is no longer financially viable.
If import duty and taxation is going to disappear from imports from the US and elsewhere in the world then that would certainly offset the loss in value of the £. Have a look over the last 10 years on XE - the £$ has lost 30cents since Brexit. That's a massive generalisation, but it's about right and for people like me this is a huge problem.
When will Brexit pay me back for all the losses over the last two years? And how? (this is a rhetorical question I know no one can really answer this!)
You mentioned all the “lies” told Mike and that’s certainly true of the utterances of those who advocate a “people’s vote”. What could be undemocratic about asking the people to give their final say right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
Unfortunately both Jo Swinson and Caroline Lucas have rather given the game away. When both were asked whether they would accept a leave vote if another referendum was indeed held neither could. Says it all doesn’t it? Democracy is fine as long as the “plebs” vote the right way.
Have made comments against yours above. I'm no expert in most things but I have seen the impact on medicine in he UK. Some of it is good, some is not good. Bit like the referendum vote...51/49!Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerMouse
I presume that you realise that this is our own money given back? As an independent country we could if we wanted chose to spend this in exactly the same way and then still have another £10 billion to boot that we don’t have now.Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerMouse
And If you think EU spending is somehow superior why is it that their auditors have to qualify their report each year because of material misstatement?
Thanks Wheeze, I will try and work my way back through this thread - that's going to take a while though!
Muddy Retriever, yes of course you're right; I guess it's a question of good faith, that is, will our government actually do that? I admit I am sceptical and think the money will go to projects like HS2 rather than where it is actually needed.
Rightly or wrongly, I always had a sense that the EU and EC objectives were fundamentally humanitarian and quite realistic. For example I worked on a four year project to help older people. I worked behind the scenes with academics and healthcare professionals, but was also in communication with the people doing the work on the front line. I know that we did an awful lot of good with the money, some 4 million Euro, throughout the EU and improved things dramatically in the countries that needed it so much more than we here in the 'richer' countries did. I don't know of any grants in the UK that offer that kind of money for that kind of work. Again, I am not an expert, I just know from talking to the people who did get the funding and helping them writing the bid (that was just my part of the work) that they did not know of anything else similar available anywhere. Maybe this will change and the UK government will start handing out similar sums of cash to Universities for projects like that, but I don't see / hear much evidence of this. I love working internationally, it's super tough, but it's really great and I am wondering if this will ever happen again in my lifetime now, maybe if I move into an EU country.
Happy to be proven wrong of course, that would be fantastic, I would actually love to be wrong. However, I suspect the money is all going to end up in the pockets of the corporations and be business oriented rather than socially oriented. The regular cycle of public taxation turned to corporate profit for minimal social good requirement.
Re. material misstatement, sure, as I said above nothing is perfect, it all still needs loads of work, and EU reports are, erm, onerous to say the least, the annual reports for the project I mentioned were sent in boxes! I guess I just hoped we could continue to do this work together rather than re-establishing borders, barriers and separatist ideals and throwing some of our hard work towards abolishing these ideas away.
I believe humanity is stronger if we all work together.
I'm not actually sure that everything we pay into the EU does come back to us, does it? Maybe that was what you meant? Anyway, I'm quite happy for some taxation to go and help other countries, much happier than I am to see it increase the bank balance of the corporate fat cats for sure. I'd like to see a thriving, capitalist, wider society, that is the EU and beyond, that celebrates it's industrial champions who in turn behave responsibly and hold genuine altruistic notions of welfare for the common good and in collaboration with government work tirelessly to make things better for everyone.
I am dreaming aren't I ;)
Can I just say it's really refreshing to have some civil discourse about this - thanks everyone - despite the gloomy subject and everyone being sick to the back teeth of it, I feel like I have managed to say what I think without being judged or chastised in any way while still being questioned, challenged and informed.
Good stuff!
I hope my posts come across as cheerfully curious and open :)
I still don't know anything really...
Danger Mouse, as you sow, so shall you reap. You have voiced your concerns in a calm, measured and thoroughly thoughtful way. That is why you feel the way you do about the responses. If you have the fortitude to plough through the rest of this thread, you will see that it has not always been thus. Many toys have been cast out of the perambulator along the way!!
If you have the stomach for it and are not put off by the tone, Oracles postings contain clues as to why the European project is no longer the egalitarian collective that you would wish for. Warning...some of the posturing is offensive from protagonists on both sides of the debate!
Now that we know so much more, I would be willing to accept the result of a second referendum, even if it was "only" 48:52. The opposition parties have certainly done themselves no favours - they care more about themselves than the country. But that is politics, and, it would seem, the majority of politicians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
A you.gov poll showed that the majority of MP's believed they should represent their own wishes even it went against the majority of their own constituency. It is 'they know best'.
But the passage of time always means you know more now than you did in the past. It would have been the same had we voted to stay in the EU. I rather doubt that you'd now be asking for another referendum if Remain had won.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
What do we actually know? For my part I know that the EU wants to punish us for having the temerity to leave by imposing harsh terms - Barnier has said as much. We also know that Remain politicians here have been encouraging them to do so and doing all they can to frustrate the referendum result. Neither of these is a reason to have another vote as far as I can see.
In reality we will only know if Brexit was the right decision after it actually happens. So why not give it chance and if in say five or so years there is a groundswell of opinion wanting a referendum to rejoin have one then?
Wise words MR. But we never have a counterfactual. If we leave, those who didn't want to will then blame everything from the trains running late to their football team not winning on that decision. If we don't the same will happen from the other side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
I'd also suggest that 5 years is too short a time. I think some of those who voted to leave were thinking more along the lines of "yes, it will be painful in the short term, but in the longer term it will have benefits". Maybe 15 years? It will take time for the economy, trade links etc. to adjust to the new market environment.
You're probably right that some people would never be reconciled to leaving (or remaining). That's why I mentioned that there should be a groundswell of general public opinion in favour of another referendum.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
On reflection I agree that five years is probably too soon.