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Hes, your Physio speaks sense!
Rob, seriously mate, go get it seen to, better to get something done now, and not be able to run for the time being than not get it looked at, let it repair itself in an even more over-compensated state and then not really be able to run afterward....
Rob, I really think you should listen to Zephr, it sounds like you've torn a ligament and they take ages to fix (and bleed which causes the bruising). Why don't you get it x-rayed to put your mind at rest re fractures and then go and see a physio. Its now been almost four weeks since I did mine and I keep thinking its a lot better but then move awkwardly and realise how bad it still is. I went cycling on a hilly route on wednesday and I couldn't push off on that leg and I felt the ankle all the way round (physio says cycling is fine though) but it did feel good to be keeping my legs strong and getting outdoors again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Furness
My advice Rob would be the same as the other guys, get an xray to be sure then its just a case of listening to your body and keep following the RICE thing. If yr still not convinced then don't be affraid to get other professional diagnosis and don't be modest when asked about the pain scale. This is all based on recent my cock up and missed diagnosis so good luck and really hope you get sorted.
I went and had it x rayed tonight, the woman at the hospital was a bit unhelpful to be honest. I got the impression that she thought I was weird for getting it x rayed because I've been able to walk on it. This despite me telling her about previous problems with both my ankles including an avulsion fracture which I could walk on and a ruptured ligament that I could also walk on. I also told her about my mother who broke her ankle and was able to work an entire day on her feet running a pub before finally getting it looked at the next day so it clearly is possible to break it and still be able to walk. I persuaded her to x ray it due to the weird feelings I'm getting in it and the strange lumps etc that you can feel below the skin on and around the lateral malleolus. X ray came back clear (ish) but with an area on the talus that she said was a bit strange but she had no idea what it was and probably wasn't important as that area wasn't tender anyway. I do despair sometimes.
I'll have to go see my GP next week and get a private referral again, the nhs seem to have this strange opinion on ankle injuries that if it feels stable and you can walk on it you haven't done anything serious. Funny how that happened exactly the same with an ATFL rupture last time and it took a year of pestering them that there was something wrong before deciding to go private where the surgeon spotted the likely problem on the first visit, got an MRI to confirm and operated within a week. He also said to me that he could feel a little bit of play in the joint when doing the anterior draw test, but when he had put me under anaesthetic the joint was loose as hell, so it must have been held in place by my muscles alone.
That does sound all too familiar Rob, I got the feeling sometimes that injury during sporting activities are a drain on A&E resources and if you don't want to get re- injured then stop. When I damaged my ligaments after a grade 2 sprain I wrongly continued running on a compromised joint after a short time. Whilst out running I developed a very acute pain down the side of the malleous area. After hobbling home the next week was spent RICEing every night, after no effect I went to a&e where after a clear xray and some clown prodding for 5 seconds diagnosed peroneal long tendonitis and sent me packing. After a week and only regression of movement I went to gp, he also said tendonitis but referee me to NHS physio. After my second session of physio where I almost passed out twice as they were adamant they could get movement back it was decided that a re visit to xray was needed. Lo and behold a fracture of my fibula, after 5 weeks of walking about and doing exercises recommended by my physio. Two weeks on and hopefully things should be mending but as a comical touch I have recieved a bill today for the anti inflams prescribed for ky tendonitis and a letter of discharge from the physio. So yes I too despair Rob, but hang in there and be persistent.
There is some interesting information on Youtube about ankle sprains which explain what they are and how they should be treated and prevented:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0-n-..._order&list=UL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP17Z...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dznWB...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsEV5...eature=related
Little bit of an update on my ankle. Three weeks or so on and things are feeling much better, I've rehabbed it by at first resting, followed by a fair bit of cycling/crosstrainer at home and then progressing to running again with my lace up ankle brace on and it has respoonded well it has to be said. I ran a short club run of 6m in training two weeks ago then 13m last tuesday on the leeds country way with no problems, and managed Burnsall Classic at the weekend and finished that ok too (even if my descending was a bit poor due to lack of confidence). Tonight I did another 9m with the club and not a peep from the bad ankle. I'm planning to continue with the brace for maybe another 4-5 weeks or so to allow proper healing but I suspect that the rapid recovery probably means the ligament ends have become detached and haven't rejoined, which probably means I'll need an op if it continues to cause problems in the future. I'll cross that bridge when I come to it though. For now, things are looking up :)
Hi Rob, that's great that you are managing so much running and that it feels better. Well done!
I've totally steered clear of running since I tried a 1.5m three weeks into my recovery and realised how things were definitely not good. It will be interesting to compare notes longterm. Its almost seven weeks since I tore two ligaments in my ankle (it took a few weeks to realise exactly how bad it was) and I've been cycling for the last three. Lots of hilly road biking round Masham and Pateley, which has been really good fun and stopped me going mental. I've been walking in the hills with my ankle brace on and was glad of it when I slipped in the mud the other day and tweeked the ligament again...it was momentarily really painful but no lasting damage. I'm going to stick to my physio's advice and keep up with his exercises, use my wobble board, keep cycling and hope to start running on the flat with the ankle brace in a week and then progress from there. Its years since I badly sprained my ankle and although I've had a few problems turning it recently, that has been mainly because my quads and glutes on that side were weaker due to an untreated knee injury so I'm really hoping that I might stand a chance of coming back stronger from both after this rehab. Can't believe you did Burnsall! Not sure whether you are really brave or mad. I did it a couple years back and the thought of the descent with my ankle in its current state makes me shiver!
Just mad I'm afraid ;) I had wanted to do it all year so didn't want to miss just because of an ankle sprain, I think I must fall into the category of fellrunner that just carries on regardless. It's certainly worked ok for me up until now so I'm not planning to change anything. If I stopped running whenever I was injured or ill or whatever, I would never be out doing it. My wife thinks I behave this way as a result of having crohn's and thus being used to just getting on with things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hes
Like I said though, I suspect there's nothing left of the ligament an that side and hence nothing to pull anymore which is why it has "healed" so quickly. Good luck with yours Hes, sounds like you're doing everything right. I forgot to mention that I've been doing balance stuff too, one thing I find really helpful is doing one leg squats and one leg calf raises (without holding onto anything for support) whilst brushing my teeth. This seems to quickly get the sense of balance back in order.
My update is that I started to feel a lot stronger this week (all the cycling and exercises have really helped) so I tried a tentative run at our club social. It was 2.2m road relays on the flat. I got there late (had forgotten how far away the chairman's house is!) and so I didn't have a team but ran with the slowest leg runners. I wore the ankle brace and it felt ok so I did the fast leg too although I was very slow! I then had a hillier 3.2m road run without the brace on Friday and today I managed a lovely 9.2m fell run with the brace. My ankle feels really good. So much stronger and surprisingly, I didn't feel scared when I was running (the brace will have helped my confidence). I'll keep up the biking and increase the running plus loads of wobble board stuff for stability and strength. I'm thinking of fellrunning with the brace for a few weeks and gradually weaning myself off as I get stronger. A friend suggested swapping it for a compression bandage first to give the feel of support (I appreciate it won't stop me going over like the brace would) to give me a bit of confidence until I am ready to run without anything.
The physio was right. He said it would be 6-8 weeks before I could run again and its been 7. He did say that I shouldn't be fellrunning for 3 months but I am hoping he will think its ok with my brace on and I'm not doing anything too hardcore!
Excellent news Hes, sounds as though you're in a similar place to me and planning a similar rehab process. I'm loving being back on the fells but didn't have the patience to wait as long as you.
I'm in a little bit of a pickle now. Haven't managed to sort out what to do for the Yorkshireman marathon this coming weekend. I've been training fine with a brace on for the past few weeks but haven't got anywhere near the sort of distance I'll be running on the Marathon next weekend. Furthest I've gone was 13 miles in road shoes, and 9 miles in fell shoes (walsh) and whilst my road shoes feel pretty good, the fell shoes do leave my feet a bit sore. I've previously run long distance in my Mizuno Wave Harriers, but these don't comfortably fit the brace and the other shoes I have which I ran the Wharfedale marathon in are some old Mizuno trail shoes which are past it really (cushioning is uneven so make my feet ache and they give blisters). I had decided they would do anyway and ran the LCW in them today but my feet were killing by the end of it and it's looking like a no go.
I'm not sure whether to risk running without a brace yet (7 weeks since injury) and it doesn't seem prudent to do a full marathon this way, although I could carry the brace in my bumbag and put it on if things weren't going well. Another option would be to risk stuffing my feet into the Harriers and see what happens, or my final option would be to go see a physio and get them to tape my ankle just for the event on the basis that this would be a slimmer fit than the ankle brace and might give good support as a one off.
What does everyone think?
You've not mentioned the option of NOT RUNNING.
To be fair, from what you say, it doesn't sound like you're fit to run a marathon. You only have 2 ankles. Why risk further injury, making the current injury worse? Not to mention the residual imbalances that are being caused elsewhere in your body. You'll miss this race, maybe others while you get back to 100% fitness. But you only have 2 ankles. You can't buy new ankles off the shelf like a spare part for your car.
sorry to be a killjoy, just saying it how it is.
I've already run the distance several times this year, just not since my ankle got injured. I didn't mention not running because I'm definitely going to run it, I'm running as a pair and I'm not dropping out for this. To be honest my ankle feels fine now, no pain from it and no apparent instability either. The pain now is coming from where the brace rubs/constricts my foot. I just know from previous experience that it's likely to go again if I'm not careful (hence using a brace till I'm confident it's recovered as much as it can).
You say I only have two ankles, but one has been operated on already for the same injury (not caused by running and I wasn't a runner at the time anyway so didn't overdo it) and the other has been crocked maybe 7-8 times at least now and it doesn't seem to make much difference if I rest it or train on it, it's still crap. I just have crap ligaments on my ankles, no point worrying about it.
Rob, didn't mean to sound like I thought running a marathon was beyond yr capabilities, of that I have no doubt. my concern was whether yr body should be subjected to the distance given yr injury/recent training. you know yr body better than anyone, and what yr willing to risk by pushing through an injury. not sure what strengthening exercises you've been doing to help yr ankles, and its too late for this weekend, if yr not already doing lots of strength work on yr lower leg/glutes then you should as this will help minimise the stress on yr "crap ligaments" (yr words!). balance hedgehogs are helpful (search that on amazon). good luck to you.
Cheers. I've been doing a lot of one legged stuff squats, calf raises, balance work etc. and lots of hill training for extra strength which hopefully should translate into more injury proof ankles (but I'm not hopeful if I'm honest). The leg I had an op on is now pretty much rock solid, but the other is poor. I have a wobble board but I might well invest in a hedgehog as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclops
I still haven't decided what to go for though. Think I might strap it and then take my brace along as well just in case.
Get a therapist/physio to strap it properly if you don't know how to do it yourself. Those hedgehogs are great, work yr ankle/lower leg in a more focussed way than balance boards IMO. build up to doing 1 leg balances with eyes closed (tho make sure a wall is close by to steady yourself on!!). Most importantly, when you feel yr ankles are stonger/fully recovered, don't stop the balance/strengthening exercises - you need to do them all the time to keep the strength and proprioception in good order.
Cyclops, sounds like sound advice. That's my shopping list priority just changed; 'hedgehogs' now promoted above 'new fell shoes'. I do regular Yoga (Astanga) which I find is very good for balance and core strength, but is probably more limited benefit for ankles, at my level anyway - which seem to have been a fell running weak spot for me over the last 9 months (first one sprained badly in January now the other in August, not quite so bad). Nothing as serious as others in this post but maybe the start of something I need to 'watch'. Must have a longer chat about this with you sometime, as well as a read of 18 pages of posts. Sorry to leave the pub so quickly after Shelf yesterday but my roast dinner was about to meet the dog (next door's dog at that!) and you and Z were about to sit down to your's (dinner not dog).Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclops
Thanks for that. That's my plan if I can find a physio before the event. Next question, anyone know a physio in Leeds that would be likely to have time to do it this week and wouldn't charge too much? Save me ringing round.Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclops
OB1 - we can chat at the BBQ, or give us a call and come round beforehand if you like.Quote:
Originally Posted by OB1
Rob - don't know any physio's in Leeds, sorry. I've put a call out on Twitter, will let you know if anything useful comes back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Furness
Bit worried about you Rob. I know that you are predisposed to running through injury and your Crohn's has meant that you have developed a high tolerance to discomfort and the determination not to let anything stop you but I wonder if a marathon is pushing it too far?
I've started tentatively running again and have done a 9m fell run but my ankle is definitely still not up to long distances and I am suffering from my ankle brace the same as you. I had to take it off due to the blisters on my last run but during yoga last night, it became clear just how much less flexibility and strength I have in my injured ankle. I think Cyclops is right...I was told to do loads of glute exercises, squats etc and was really good about doing them until I started feeling better and cycling loads and now I've dropped off with my physio exercises but I'm going to get back in to them asap. I'm impatient to be back running long distances because I have had a great year with LDWA events and a good three peaks but that was before the sprain...
...looks like its a slow recovery for me but I am hoping that it will be a longterm one (well, until the next injury!).
Sorry Hes, not got round to replying. I had my ankle taped last Friday in prep for the Yorkshireman, but had to remove the tape on Saturday as it was cutting into my Achilles. On the day I took my brace along with me, put it on, took it off again, started to put it back on and then finally decided to run without it on but carry it in my bumbag.
During the race I managed to get pains or cramp in almost every other part of my body, but my ankle stayed solid all the way round. No hairy moments, no pain & no swelling etc. afterwards so it looks like it's healed fairly well.
I appreciate your concern but I can't really change the way I am. Hope yours is healing nicely as well