Difficult to believe but some were carrying water around the course - I could hear it sloshing in their backpacks .... a self imposed handicap they could have done without on such a hilly route.
Printable View
Difficult to believe but some were carrying water around the course - I could hear it sloshing in their backpacks .... a self imposed handicap they could have done without on such a hilly route.
Well I had an excellent day out and came in 18 minutes ahead of my expectation - perhaps I need to review my targets.
I managed this despite carrying half a litre of fluid, which I finished on the climb to Callow :-) I do find on races over about an hour that if I don't drink I start to suffer... There's only one water point on the LMV and that's very early on (CP2 I think). There's no way I'd drink out of any of those streams after 300 other fellrunners had tramped through them (OK usually though).
Despite being local, I've only been competing for about a year and a half and didn't feel up to doing the LMV last year, but I really enjoyed it, paced myself well, and overtook about 50 odd people between the Minton Batch and the end, including three in the final crash dive to the finish. I felt tired on Yearlet but was obviously climbing better than most around me, and I went down the green path when most with me at the top went for the gully descent into Townbrook - this paid off - there was no one on it and I flew down and finished a minute or tow ahead of those who'd gone the other way.
Really nice to feel that I'd done myself justice at LMV and had a really good run the day before at Titterstone Clee, where I reduced my 2009 time from 32 minutes to 25!!
Jim
Great race & great day for it :thumbup:
Despite my lack of training - due to work pressures - I managed to come in within 45 seconds of my time last year. (and that's in spite of going a-over-t on the final descent while trying an overambitious overtaking manoeuvre :o )
I had forgotten what a tough race this is with all those vicious climbs in the last few miles :w00t:
Also on the positive side, I managed to win our club race :D
Had a shocker of a race, but a great day with outstanding views. Guess thats the joy of fell running.
Great to have a quality field racing this, my most favoruite of races.
Bad luck Wee Beastie.......I was a DNS unfortunately, suffered with a virus since the xcross at Alton Towers ,but thinks looking up for Edale.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wee Beastie
A fanatastic race in a new part of the world for me. Someone told me shropshire is flat!! Disappointing time but in the end just glad to get round. Thanks to all involved in putting it on. I'll be back!
Some photos up at
http://www.uksportpictures.com/portfolio159834.html
god pics too at http://www.fellrunningpictures.co.uk/lmv2011.html
cracking photos weoodenlegs and plasticman, Thanks.
Great Pictures thanks guys!
Mike T - WHy do you find it so strange people were carrying water!? I was one of the people with water sloshing in my backpack - Carried a Litre and drank a litre too! Some people just need it more - I get kidney problems if I don't drink when running hence I carry water. I reckon I save weight by being slim - so can afford to carry water with me! (I also eat Jelly babies and Tuc Crackers on my way round....but that is just cos I like food!)
i was kit checked at the start by one of the organisers and they asked if i was carrying any water
Brillant race, thought I'd hold back a fraction for the steep ascents at the end but still had no energy to give on those climbs. I've started taking a small volume of liquid in my camel more to alleviate that continuous thirst issue or rather than stashing liquids or begging a colleague to stand at a certain place etc. I was amused to see Dan Hope whip out his bag.... to drink from a stream, not sure what you may have been thinking. Good portable idea. Another runner did this and then spotted the sheep carcass (yum). I do eat a sweet or nibble cereal bars like the tucs (good salt) but I don't think it makes a great deal of difference to my performance. In endurance I'll nibble up to twice an hour as a routine but these things are too fast/furious even at 1hr43...
OMG! That was ard!
Everything hurts today.
Thought nothing could beat Whernside-3 peaks for a horrid climb but today was a shocker. What a great championship course though -it had everything, including good banter at the back(even learnt some new swear words whilst plodding up hill 6). Thanks to all organisers, marshalls and fellow sufferers at the back who also had the churned up musddy paths to contend with.
DNF. Cack! Felt good going into Minton Batch so took a different line to the crocodile and overtook a load. 200m down the valley the calf muscle went, so ended up plodding down on my heel and watched all those I'd just overtaken pass me by as I sat with my leg in the stream. Made it up Packetstone hill but I was going nowhere so hobbled as far as Little Stretton before getting a lift. Got to the start as the guy I was trying to catch up when the leg went crossed the finish!
What a race though, feel cheated at not getting to the last 2 hills, I was so looking forward to them!
Because each litre of water weighs a kilogram and that will slow you down by several minutes on such a hilly course - I was hungry but not especially thirsty at the finish - excellent teabread at the school by the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by vburke
Guess everybody is different.....i'll lose a KG in weight before my next race and then the extra weight of the water won't matter ;)
I didn't find it slowed me down but maybe I am so slow anyway it makes vey little difference....if i was going to win the race maybe I would rethink but i'd rather take it if i think I may need it would hate to have a DNF because I was unprepared.
Really glad that I made it to this race despite still carrying the tag end of a chest infection and being on anit-biotics. Hadn't done a proper run for three weeks so had no choice but to go steady and enjoy the atmosphere of the event. Even so, really struggled towards the top of the last climb.
Fine views and a great time out in the Shropshire hills. Many thanks to Mercia for organising.
I took a drink with me and finished it on the way round - it was ability not weight slowing me up;)
Everyone is different. Some people need fluid, others don't. I've suffered very badly in the past through not taking enough fluid on... and drinking a lot beforehand isn't the answer because you can finish up over-hydrated and that's worse than a bit of dehydration. I started with half a litre, and drank that plus another I picked up from a stream (although I didn't see the dead sheep). So just because you don't feel you need fluids doesn't mean other people can manage without.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
P.S. I drank two gallons in last year's Old County Tops and still finished dehydrated unlike many others who didn't even finish. An extreme example, but I hope makes the point that you have to know your own body, and what it needs to keep going.
Sadly I DNFd as I sprained my ankle on my way down to check point 3. Many, many thanks to all those who stopped to check I was OK and especially to Ross and all at the check point who helped me hobble back to the road. Swollen and bruised but not too trashed. Think I'll come back and have another crack next year.
have you any idea how much you sweat on a 2 hour run at an average of c80% MHR ? That amount of dehydration will curtail your performance a hell of a lot more than a tiny addition of 1 kg to the average 60-75kg runner...not that you'd carry the full 1 kg for the entire race anywayQuote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
what's more gylcogen depletion will be be on the cards too at around the 2hour mark....so if you want to perfrom to your max you need some energy too...whether you realise this or not doesn't stop it from being basicly applicable to everyone
Great answer Tri, you beat me to it.Quote:
Originally Posted by trilathon
I saw you DNFed. We were wondering what had happened to you. I hope the ankle's on the mend.Quote:
Originally Posted by Smut
That's all well and good, and supported by science and all that. But... how many of the top 50 carried any water? I guess they finish faster, so they can get away with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by trilathon
I guess I am lucky in that I sweat very little and have for example run a couple of marathons during which my intake of food/fluid was zero and yet my times were if anything better than those where I had indulged. 1 kg is about 1.5% of the average runners weight = 1.5% reduction in VO2max = 1.5% increase in time; a handicap I can do without. Are others really sure they need it, or are they sticking with the now discredited advice that you need to drink BEFORE you are thirsty.Quote:
Originally Posted by trilathon
Mike I'd always wondered about this, the extra-weight to speed ratio. This may seem a dumb question, but what is VO2 max, and is it definitely that straight forward to relate extra weight to an increase in time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
There were several around me in the top 50 and most of us took water in one form or another at some stage or another...horses courses...the reason I've started carrying water is not just because my body may need it (at 56 kilos I can get away with it for up to 2 hrs easily) but in race situ its actually to placate the mental aspect ie nerves, feeling parched near the start or to break up the climb by having a sip, or washing down that jelllybaby etc. I only carry 200-300ml in my camel and i still have maybe 100ml (i use a diluted juice for sugar n some electrolyte) at the end but there you go, i is mental
Thanks Mr & Mrs Noel. At least I didn't get too thirsty!Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
One of the best ways to improve performance is to lose weight or to CARRY LESS WEIGHT - and this includes what you carry in your stomach, and on your back and on your feet. The relationship between VO2max and time is essentially linear for smallish changes - assuming of course that it is fat/fluid/food/clothing/shoes rather than muscle that is lost. The best analogy for VO2max I can think of is that it is a bit like car engine power - clearly the lighter the car the faster it will go, particularly up hills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleanor
I can see that you might want water to wash down food, but 200-300mls is only going to make a miniscule difference to your state of hydration.Quote:
Originally Posted by mischeavous elf
Quite true but less juice means you don't go as far.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
But there is no need to have a full tank of petrol all the time .....Quote:
Originally Posted by Stagger
that not correct at all....VO2 Max has a relationship with bodyweight and the surface area of an person but as anything you carry does not have a oxygen requirement, nor increase your surface area, in a direct sense, it will not act as the equivalent increase in mass.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
Furthermre, your capacity to perform any work is massively compromised by a drop in blood plasma caused by dehydration which is going to afffect oxygen transport and many other metabolic activities so your actual vO2 max isn't going to be available for you to use, basically you will slow down far more than you realise though the percieved effort level will probably increase.
Again, whether you accpt this or not doesn't stop it being true
true enough, finishing in a hour and a half is a bit different than two or three hours...but they're still human...you want find many people who know anything about sport science advocating racing over the hour mark without addressing the nutritional needs of the bodyQuote:
Originally Posted by noel
does natural talent come pre-packaged with a contemporary knowledge of sport science or do people just copy what they see unless awareness is increased ?
thats what I'm saying, its a nerves issue for me (have drink if need it, self sufficient, and sipping just before start, rehyrate as much after and hopefully wee wees followQuote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
lol
Disagree - any scientists out there care to contribute? - I have probably said enough on this for the moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by trilathon
Yes - it is that simple - whether it is 1 kg of body fat or a litre of water - assuming 1 kg is 1.5% of your body weight. VO2 max is mls of O2 per minute per kg of body weight - if you weigh more your VO2 max goes down in proportion - carrying weight has the same effect on performance whether it is part of your body or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
More on this here: http://coachjoeenglish.wordpress.com...o2-max-part-i/
VO2 max is maximal O2 consumption and is usually expressed relative to body weight - so it is essentially power to weight ratio. Of course if you carry a weight your maximum O2 uptake will not change, but your power to weight ratio will - and it is this that determines your performance. If a 50 kg runner carries 50 kg - to keep the sums simple - their power to weight ratio halves and their performance suffers accordingly - this applies to both an external weight or fat. For an external weight a good description of what is going on is EFFECTIVE VO2 max.The relationship between performance and changes in VO2 max is not linear with big changes, but not far from it: Noakes states marathon times of 2.43 fo a VO2 max of 60 and 4.43 for a VO2 max of 30. If you strap 1 kg of water to your back your EFFECTIVE VO2 max does go down by about 1.5% - and your performance suffers accordingly - and if you lose 10kg of fat - not muscle - your VO2 max will improve dramatically - but not many runners have 10 kg in weight to lose.
Speak for yourslef!lol!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
Interesting thoughts, assuming, as it seems some people are, the extra 1kg of water carried results in a loss of 1.5% in performance over a race that might take 2 hrs that equates to approx. 1min 48 secs (I think).
This doesn't however consider, the psychological effects of feeling comfortable, hydrated etc or from carrying electrolytes and so forth, not dehydrating and such, which would surely counteract some of the offset 1 min 48?
Also your equation doesn't account for the water drunk on the route, it is unlikely you'd carry the full 1 kg around for the entire 2 hrs thereofre surely the effects would be less?
Finally would the extra 1 kg at the start of the race affect anaerobic threshold and/or lactate tolerance as well as your VO2 max, I don't think one is necesarrily derived from the other but may be just as important in a race like this?
Answers on a postcard please?
I think we're getting mired in facts and stats again.
I've lost 9.5 kgs in the last year, through regular training and just following a slightly more sensible diet (smaller portion sizes when I'm not really hungry from running). The combination of weight loss and better conditioning has led me to much better performances. I was over seven minutes faster at Clee Hill on Saturday than I was last year.
I carried 500mls of fluid and a couple of gels (prob another 100g?) on Sunday. I tried hard to drink two or three sips every ten minutes or so after the first half hour (although I'm fairly careful to drink when I'm breathing least hard otherwise I tend to get trapped wind which does adversely affect my performance), and I had a gel on the climb out of Minton Batch (to give me some energy for Packetstone and Callow) and another at the bottom of the Callow Climb (for some go on the final ascent).
All I can say it that this approach seemed to work for me - I wasn't desperately thirsty when I finished (i.e. I was still reasonably hydrated) and I had good energy levels on Callow and Yearlet (I was passing a lot of people towards the end of the race). I know if I hadn't drunk or eaten anything the outcome would not have been as good!
Cheers all
Jim
Hi Jim - did you get up to Bowland yesterday? HS offered me a lift to Stretton but unfortunately I had another seizure on Monday so wasn't running. Roll on the hospital appointment next Tuesday...
One thing I'd say is that thirst is not a great indicator of hydration. I did several experiments at university as part of a sports physiology course and urine colour is the strongest easily monitored indicator of hydration. How many times have we done a long training run or race in the summer and drunk 500-1000 ml afterwards and which has quenched thirst but still have orange urine an hour or two later. Lovely...