Printable View
To a (large, and largely general) extent I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
BUT this time I felt different, and I thought 'sod the result', and asked myself, who deserves 'to get one less vote?' (4 parties in my view) and who deserves 'to get one more vote?' (I looked down the list and only saw one credible and recognisable party). I must say that, on balance, I am more of a proportional-rep advocate, even though I know that that opens a whole can of (practical) worms of its own.
When I lived in Tameside, I was also a big advocate of PR. About as much a Labour stronghold as you can get! Always felt like a wasted vote.Quote:
Originally Posted by OB1
Richard I just had a terrifying thought. What if I had to spend a night in a tent with Stolly and Derby Tup! If the boredom didn't finish me off the anxiety leading up to the occasion certainly would. Hey and I'm not joking!Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Look at their policies for anything other than the EU: They make even the Tories look moderate and sane.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeathens
UKIP only wants out of the EU to promote sociopathic extreme-rightwing policies that the EU would block.
I did indeed. Actually I see a change in some of Witton's arguments since he first started debating on the forum. Is that a good thing? It will be when he fully endorses my views.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
No, because i think you should be ashamed of yourself, I really do. I refuse to even try and reason with Ukip voters. They need to be insulted, belittled and abused until they stop believing everything can be blamed on the EU/Wogs/Poofs. :mad:
Oi! Don't pair me up with the pillock!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank
Didn't vote UKip but the elected UKip MP for Scotland is openly gay.:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Danbert Nocurry
You think that everyone who votes Labour agrees to all their policies? Conservatives? Lib Dems? Greens?Quote:
Originally Posted by Danbert Nocurry
You're the one who is opposing free speech. Someone mentioned Voltaire earlier in the thread so it's a good time to drag out a quote :
Surely you must see the irony in your posts on this thread? You're calling people fascists and bigots but you're exhibiting the most fascist and bigoted views. No one should have to apologise for their political views whilst we live in a free society, even the ones that you and I find abhorrent. Have faith in the electorate.Quote:
I do not agree with what you have to say but I will defend to the death your right to say it
The point is that UKIP have just won an election; the first time in 100 years that it wasn't one of the main two parties. The mainstream parties have to take notice and will try and negotiate a better deal for us in Europe - how can you be against that?
Who did you vote for? Why did you vote for them?
I think you should be ashamed for that outburst Danbert.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danbert Nocurry
Danbert, your views are exactly why the political establishment got a good kicking. And if you keep talking without thinking critically, you'll continue to further UKIPs cause.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danbert Nocurry
One of UKIPs arguments is that the EU has created laws that damage the UK. That is a truthful argument that Farage has made repeatedly. He has also criticised our foreign aid policy. Whilst the other parties are sacrificing us for their own altruistic ends, Farage is getting on his feet and standing up for us and our interests. That is the truth and that's why people supported him and rejected the other cowards.
It's difficult to have faith in sections of the electorate that are stupid enough to be taken in by a party that feeds on people's fear by making them more fearful. Of what?? Not of aliens, poverty, political crisis, but of other people! That populist message is shameful Heathens!!Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeathens
Quote:
Originally Posted by CL
He's not standing up for me pal because I've got just enough intelligence to realise that I live in a globalised world and that you have to collaborate to develop.
I also realise that the EU open borders have allowed many large companies to move over here and set up, I realise this because indirectly I owe my own job to the welcoming economic climate the EU affords, no EU = less jobs as companies pull out.
Your Ukip party may reclaim our corner shops but our growing manufacturing industries will go belly up losing more higher paid jobs for a few under paid ones and probably lose the skilled English people who follow the companies out.
Ukip voters are not for real, they'd burn ties with our biggest trading partner, and then do what? What's the plan for after? Oh yeah, they don't have one.
The fact of it is, nobody who has 'seriously' engaged with the EU thinks it'd be anything but a financial disaster for us to pull out.
Your opinion on something doesn't make it fact. You know my stance on UKIP - people still deserve their say.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danbert Nocurry
You may be more suited to North Korea, I hear that other Political views are not allowed.
I can't say it more simply so I'll shout: PULLING BACK FROM (OR OUT OF) THE EU DOESNT MEAN THE END TO A EUROPEAN TRADE AREA. IT WOULD BE STUPID OF THE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES TO DO SO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danbert Nocurry
If people want to vote for parties with policies that are repellent, and whose candidates hold obnoxiously racist, sexist and homophobic views that is their right, but it is also my prerogative to counter their views.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeathens
You know as well as I do that I could pull up loads of links to CBI (Confederation of British Industry) reports that stress the importance of our continued EU membership and you could probably come back with links giving a counter argument, so let's no botherQuote:
Originally Posted by TheHeathens
All i would say is that personally i'll go with the CBI over the UKIP fantasists on the right who dream of a lost world of global empire and believe we can walk away from the successful trading block on our doorsteps.
Voltaire? On the FRA Forum?Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeathens
Actually what Voltaire wrote was "...I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write'' which is not quite the same as the better known phrase attributed to Tallentyre.
It's a slightly bizarre mix with UKIP. They can go from blaming gay marriage for the bad weather to having an LGBT wing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tahr
There'll still too many wrongs for me to consider voting for them. They've been around for 21 years now, they should have the culture of the party sorted by it now. The leadership seems happy to accept anyone, and only react when problems are publicised rather than prevent such things happening in the first place.
My personal opinion on tactical voting is that it's utter toss that is indicative of one of the key reasons we have been stuck for so long with what is in effect a two party system. Even now it's just a choice of red/blue, blue, or really really blue but with only one goal. Vote for who represents you, not who you think might get in. It's no more of a waste that voting red, when blue wins. And at least indicates a truer reflection of the desires of the electorate.
I think that's why I didn't quote him. I would have remembered the more commonly used miss-quote.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
But wouldn't it be better if we could get a more favourable deal with the EU?Quote:
Originally Posted by Danbert Nocurry
The principle is the same though.Quote:
Originally Posted by shaunaneto
Further research suggests that Graham is also wrong (a misquote attributed to Guterman) and he actually said "Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too"
I agree. So following Ed Millibands speech on Tuesday I take it you'll be taking him off your Xmas card list for saying that immigration is the biggest issue facing the UK.Quote:
Originally Posted by Danbert Nocurry
On post 113 I listed just a few matters that involve the main 3 parties - there's more, many more - your reasons for being anti-UKIP could just about apply to any of them.
Even the Greens message is basically "we're doooooommmmed" :)
Not wrong. I am aware of the other documentary source for what has become the received wisdom of what Voltaire did not actually say.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeathens
Most "everyday" quotations are wrong- they are corrupted over time and misuse and if the sense is the same that does not matter too much- but when great minds are quoted by name I feel one should check what they actually did utter before using them in one's defence.
Fortunately, within fell running circles, there is little doubt on the two references I most often use, "...pour encourager les autres...." with regard to the FRA disciplinary process and, of course, "The best is the enemy of the good".
It is all all a plot by Johnny Foreigner, to upset Daily Mail readers. A ploy to distract them from curtain twitching and more importantly checking under their beds for reds.
So you will know, Graham, that there is doubt over whether the term appears in the letter that Guterman refers to so you can't actually say with any more certainty than I can.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedantic Dictator
Indeed, 'one' should take one's own advice.Quote:
Most "everyday" quotations are wrong- they are corrupted over time and misuse and if the sense is the same that does not matter too much- but when great minds are quoted by name I feel one should check what they actually did utter before using them in one's defence.
To quote Tallentyre / Hall:
Quote:
"I did not mean to imply that Voltaire used these words verbatim and should be surprised if they are found in any of his works. They are rather a paraphrase of Voltaire's words in the Essay on Tolerance — "Think for yourselves and let others enjoy the privilege to do so too."
I'm still somewhere near Gandhi on that test, (Economic Left/Right: -5.62; Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.69) but was one of those calling for the 15-year-old boy to be executed.Quote:
Originally Posted by The devil's own
Similarly, as WP points out, he doesn't consider himself right-wing, despite voting Conservative and UKIP in recent elections (correct me if I'm wrong there WP). And he supports renationalising the railways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
If you agreed you wouldn't have voted for a party of bigots. A party so completely out of step with 'decent' public opinion on every social issue that not even your right wing press would let itself be seen endorsing them.
Milliband is right, immigration is the biggest issue facing the UK.
In Britain we actually need to 'increase' our current levels of immigration of skilled workers to offset the impact of demographic change. I'm 50 years of age and I'm now down to work until I'm 67, for those younger than me it will 70 + soon.
Interesting example. The more logical kind of reason that some people favour leaving the EU.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
The perceptual problem with the EU is closest to this IMO:
For decades the UK government has taken their pick of the more pro-capitalist/big-business EU regulations, applied them far more strictly in the UK than did other member states (because this was actually their own agenda), and yet in public they have often blamed the EU for it.
My mind is making a sudden leap to (eg) EU-wide land-reforms. It is a democracy after all. Greens to run Europe ;) That thought will send shivers up spines :p shivers of excitement & anticipation
I didn't actually say that. You suggested I was being victimised for my right-wing views, but I haven't expressed any views on this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
The only real view I have given is a desire to leave the EU which was labour party position in the past, so it isn't right wing.
But like a few other posters I get labelled right wing.
Left wing beliefs are usually progressive in nature, they look to the future, aim to support those who cannot support themselves, are idealist and believe in equality. People who are left wing believe in taxation to redistribute opportunity and wealth - things like a national health service, and job seeker’s allowance are fundamentally left wing ideas. They believe in equality over the freedom to fail.
Taken from http://idontgetpolitics.co.uk/right-left-wing
I look to the future, I aim to support those who cannot (note not will not) support themselves, I believe in equality. I believe in taxation to redistribute taxation and wealth, the national health service, JSA.
So I'm left wing.
Right wing beliefs value tradition, they are about equity, survival of the fittest, and they believe in economic freedom. They typically believe that business shouldn’t be regulated, and that we should all look after ourselves. Right wing people tend believe they shouldn’t have to pay for someone else’s education or health service. They believe in freedom to succeed over equality.
I value tradition, economic freedom, that we should look after ourselves.
In reality I'm neither and I don't really accept the idea of right wing/ left wing.
The explanation above of right wing on education and health is clearly at odds with the facts. The Tories were in Govt for 34 years from 1950 - 2000 and education and health are free to all through taxation.
Yes we do need skilled immigrants, to make up for the skilled English who are fleeing to Australia and Canada.
"Listen, strange blokes, drinking beer, distributin' anti-Euro platitudes is no basis for a system of government. SUPREME executive power derives from a much wider political mandate of the masses, not from a bunch of eccentric Walter Mittys." :rolleyes:
Be better if we trained more instead of importing.Quote:
Originally Posted by dnf
Thanks for clarifying - I wouldn't want to misrepresent your views. However, I think I have a fair idea of your opinions from other debates on the forum. I would categorise you as conservative with a small "c". I'd also say you are a traditionalist, which comes through in some of your opinions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
So was I wrong in saying you've voted Conservative and UKIP in recent elections (let's say the last 10 years)? I note you ducked the question last time, so feel free to not tell me this time - it is secret ballot after all. And I completely agree with your regarding left and right wing. They are inaccurate labels that cannot reflect the complexity of a person's beliefs. However, if you vote for parties that are regarded as right-wing, you can see why people might say you are right-wing.
You just made me choke on my coffee, and that was before I got to the second part!Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Freedom to Fail FFS. And then what happens? It's fine for the wealthy they have endless chances & contacts & start-up money. It's the fact that everyone is stuck within this absurd economic system that really pisses us off. It's a pyramid scheme in housing, and even if you don't own a house you're supporting it through rent. As long as you're a good few steps up the ladder/pyramid you can hardly go wrong & guess what, you can get away with not working or only working on your own terms. Whereas the poor are trapped in working too much for too little pay mostly just to maintain the wealth of the privileged.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheHeathens
Haha, sometimes I walk right into stuff like this. And maybe I deserve it, I don’t know. That said, in my ‘boring’ little world, running in the hills has been (and still is) a life maker for me and, in many many ways, a complete life changer too. The FRA forum, which I joined 7 years ago has played no small part in that too, particularly, and most importantly, as it led to me meeting Hester.Quote:
Originally Posted by CL
The thing that is completely brilliant about fell running to me I guess is the fell running ‘community’ and our shared loved of the hills, wilderness and wildlife - at its best, this forum has been a fabulous microcosm of that community. The thing that gets my goat is that sometimes heated debates on contentious subjects just get divisive and, if only in a little way, chip away at the things that I like about the forum. (And yeah I said ‘the things I like about the forum’ and fully appreciate that others might well like other things..... such as arguing the toss about politics :) ).
For sure the forum has lost some great members over the years, some I know put off by the divisive stuff (and/or the occasional visits by people/alter egos intent on just being completely obnoxious), and I get the urge from time to time, especially if I’m bored at work, to wave the flag for the happy clappy, tree huggy side of the forum, thats all.
Anyway carry on and never mind me. I’ll leave you to UKIP and try my very best to resist future involvement in this part of the forum
I just wonder how many people would have voted UKIP, as a protest or any other, if they'd realised that they were voting under PR rather than first passed the post and a local candidate. To be absolutely honest I'd forgotten though I didn't commit a protest vote.
I didn't say you lived in a 'boring' little world. You don't - because it interests you and others close to you. You're obviously happy doing what you do, which is great (English people can't say great without sounding sarcastic but I don't mean to be!).Quote:
Originally Posted by Stolly
I'm just saying that there are threads on here that I'm not interested in and ones that I am; things that you might find fascinating or completely boring and vice versa. It's just that if I find a thread boring, I'll not post on that thread whilst you always seem to pop up proclaiming how boring it is to you.
I've been on this forum longer than you (11 years now!) and I don't think that there has been a massive change in that time. Yes, people come and go, but you'd expect that over that time. We've lost decent members but also gained many decent ones as well - things evolve and the world changes - who had heard of UKIP back in 2003?Quote:
The thing that is completely brilliant about fell running to me I guess is the fell running ‘community’ and our shared loved of the hills, wilderness and wildlife - at its best, this forum has been a fabulous microcosm of that community. The thing that gets my goat is that sometimes heated debates on contentious subjects just get divisive and, if only in a little way, chip away at the things that I like about the forum. (And yeah I said ‘the things I like about the forum’ and fully appreciate that others might well like other things..... such as arguing the toss about politics :) ).
For sure the forum has lost some great members over the years, some I know put off by the divisive stuff (and/or the occasional visits by people/alter egos intent on just being completely obnoxious), and I get the urge from time to time, especially if I’m bored at work, to wave the flag for the happy clappy, tree huggy side of the forum, thats all.
There's a number of different and strong personalities on this forum which makes for good debate in the main. There can't be many forums that have been going this long which is a testament to the way in which Brett moderates this one.
I have only ever voted UKIP once - last week. On previous occasions I have voted Conservative.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
Why I don't like left wing/right wing is the way it is portrayed in the likes of Danberts mind as left wing = fair-minded, kind, generous but right wing is nasty, selfish, racist, homophobic.
Those positive and negative qualities are to be found on both political wings.
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/...adford-7122909
Agreed WP. I'm right wing economically (free markets etc) but I'm socially liberal (decriminalisation of drugs, shrinking of the state etc). How do you fit that in to a simple right wing - left wing scale?Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
The closest party to me is the Lib Dems (who I voted for in the 2010 general election) but I voted Conservatives last week because I believe they are the best party to look after my interests in my local borough.
I will probably replicate that in the general election next year because I just don't trust Labour to run the country and will never vote for them again. If people want to pigeon hole me as 'right wing' then so be it - it's them who aren't open minded.