OMM in Borrowdale!

[QUOTE=Ben B;159378]

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Originally Posted by Splinter

I think you miss the point.
(edited) ...I can't see who else you can target when it comes to taking responsibility except the organisers.

I think you have made your point now - and how does targeting the organisers help? Isn't blame wonderful?

A disappointed Ben B

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Why be so defensive? It's not about blame; it's about responsibility. If you mess up, you stand up and get counted. If you pretend nothing's gone wrong then you learn nothing from your mistakes. The last thing I want to do is hammer away at people I respect and who have done a brilliant job organising OMM for a number of years. I am simply calling a spade a spade. In life things go wrong; I agree, don't dwell on them. But you do have to acknowledge the facts.

'the last thing I want to do is hammer away at organisers'...what a load of crap, thats what you've been doing in all your threads!!

one thing I can't stand in life is those who've never organised anything critisising those that do. If I was an organiser (and I am) and I knew your name I'd make sure you never ran in an event I organised!!

Because I think it is too early to call. No-one knows what has happened with any degree of certainty. Pointing fingers in the absence of facts doesn't help. Neither you nor I know if this will go down in history as the best test of skill in an MM ever or a tragedy. Why not wait until the situation pans out before blaming people (which is how your posts read to me)?

Besides which, neither you nor I have any right to sit in judgement of the OMM team. We're just two blokes typing, not omnipotent judges of good and evil. Maybe we should let those involved get on with it, without heckling from the sidelines?

Ben B

[quote=Splinter;159380]

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Originally Posted by Ben B

Why be so defensive? It's not about blame; it's about responsibility. If you mess up, you stand up and get counted. If you pretend nothing's gone wrong then you learn nothing from your mistakes. The last thing I want to do is hammer away at people I respect and who have done a brilliant job organising OMM for a number of years. I am simply calling a spade a spade. In life things go wrong; I agree, don't dwell on them. But you do have to acknowledge the facts.

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If everyone returns fit and will this morning nothing has gone wrong.

Yep it was bad weather and???

If the race had not been cancelled it would not have made any news.

Anyway I am a fell runner and not a fell moaner, so I am off to my race:)

Firstly, I'm new to fellrunning so don't shoot me if you disagree. However, surely experience would include the ability to judge the conditions and decide whether it was safe to go out? Also, if they are all so experienced why do they need rescuing? The guy who owns the Honister Mine could have closed it to teach them all a lesson in a serves you right kind of way if he'd wanted, so I think everyone is being massively unfair on him. Other large races were cancelled so why is there so much negative reaction to this?

kgc...you clearly are new to fell running...I'll leave it at that...

I don't think blaming the organiser should even be an issue. At the end of the day, some fell runners decided to run, while some felt it unsafe and didn't. The organiser did her part and still allowed the freedom of choice (a decision to be admired in this age of litigation, and she could well have just cancelled it and covered her back). I'm sure none of the runners will blame the organiser - the press like a good story and somebody to blame.

I'm currently sitting very comfortably in the lounge of a house in Cockermouth (many thanks Becks!) so I've had a very comfortable sleep on the floor - much more pleasant than a cold muddy field.

My partner and I had a very tough day on the fells yesterday, but when we arrived at Buttermere at about 3pm, we weren't expecting the event to be abandoned. The weather was wild, but that's what had been forecast and we'd been dressed appropriately. We were relieved to hear that we didn't have to spend the night in the tent, but then began the tricky bit.

I think we were the lucky ones, being some of the first to get to Cockermouth via the genuine hospitality of the Honister Slate Mine, and then through word of mouth and a lot of ingenuity arriving at Becks' house.

It was obviously much less comfortable in the barn at Buttermere, and I hope no-one had to spend the night on the hills, but at the end of the day, it was supposed to be tough, and that's what we were all prepared for.

Let me add my sincere hope that everyone returns safely, runners, marshalls and event organisers included.
I have been a race organiser who had a close call to make regarding weather, though nowehere near the scale of an OMM event and you can bet Jen Longbottom will be beating herself up more than anyone else. All being safe, please let the OMM and other MM events continue in their great tradition of being a challenge of our ability and self reliance. Learn lessons where possible, and don't allow any pressure from smart ar5es in the aftermath to muck around with the way we run our sport. I missed this years OMM for varoius reasons but pray that when I enter the next one it will be as fun and challenging as usual.

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Originally Posted by sideburns on the summits

As much as I hate to say it the BBC are understating the rain that fell in the Borrowdale Valley on Thursday and Yesterday. You can check past weather in Borrowdale here:
http://www.keswickweather.co.uk
The weather station for Borrowdale school shows that 130mm on Thursday,
and yesterdays storm threw another 130mm.
It is not uncommon for the Borrowdale Valley to receive more than twice the rain of Keswick.
This is the wettest place in Britain after all.

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Fair enough. So good idea to take a mac then.

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Originally Posted by kgc

Firstly, I'm new to fellrunning so don't shoot me if you disagree. However, surely experience would include the ability to judge the conditions and decide whether it was safe to go out? Also, if they are all so experienced why do they need rescuing? The guy who owns the Honister Mine could have closed it to teach them all a lesson in a serves you right kind of way if he'd wanted, so I think everyone is being massively unfair on him. Other large races were cancelled so why is there so much negative reaction to this?

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yep you are new to this game

im just back, it was bad, worst rain/wind iv been racing in, ive not had time to look through all posts but it was horendous. it rained for abt 19-20hrs solid, gale force winds on the tops, people been blown (myself included) on their arses due to wind. id heard the organisers were told by the mine manager to cancel event. we got to mid way campsite at 1.30 having decided to give up tring to score points. then abt 1.30 later was told or herad that it was over and sent back to HQ, madness, the walk over honister pass was as bad as being on mountains, wind and rain. the organisers decided at 12 to cancel they shld have told people stright away rather than letting people put tents up.

had to sleep in car ay HQ as it was flooded of so cldnt get out, then this morning stuck with the mud

hope everyone was ok and makes it back, ah well, next year......

Can't speak from personal experience of this years OMM but have done 14 KIMM / OMM - 17 SLMM - 1 LAMM and 1 MMM.
The "problem" has been anticipated to soon, competitors start with kit for a 2 day stay out and the knowledge of how to use that kit in an emergency.
The guy at the slate mines has the right to his opinion but, like the media, are basing it on a small amount of knowledge.
I competed in the Howgills, a pal was swept 200 yards down a "stream" not far from the start, and had a brilliant day on the hills, We lost places on the second day in totally clear conditions.
From phone calls to people concerned, the competitors that were not comfortable being out, retired early and were directed back to Borrowdale, others reached midway camp to be informed of the decision to cancel and ended up with an uncomfortable night in a barn, having set off over the Honister and turned round by the police.
The mountain rescue, in my opinion, should not have been called out on mass, if indeed they had, Where were they going to search? and for Who?
I state again, competitors that were out are self sufficient for 2 days, if they are not then they should not be there.
Lets take stock at the end of today to see how large the "problem" was.
I will be surprised if there is anything other than minor injuries of the nature you would see in any Mountain Marathon.
the media have a job to do and so does the Slate Mine manager, I say thanks to him for sheltering runners but lets try and educate the uninitiated of the skills we hold.

i take your point although you wasnt there. this didnt let up so till early this morning, both me and partner have a lot of fell running/mountaineering exp under our belts and we thgt it was bad, i think some of the decisions could have been implemented earlier, as for people making their minds up abt staying or retireing, from what i knew 1700 of us didnt get that choice as they/we got stuck and had to battern the hatches down so to speak, which we are or shld be well prepared for i agree.be interesting to see how this devlops.

Don't be too hard on the guy at Honister. He provided a huge amount of support - warmth, tea and coffee and transport.

Also, his spokesman was giving a much more considered response this morning on Sky News.

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Originally Posted by egor

i take your point although you wasnt there. this didnt let up so till early this morning, both me and partner have a lot of fell running/mountaineering exp under our belts and we thgt it was bad, i think some of the decisions could have been implemented earlier, as for people making their minds up abt staying or retireing, from what i knew 1700 of us didnt get that choice as they/we got stuck and had to battern the hatches down so to speak, which we are or shld be well prepared for i agree.be interesting to see how this devlops.

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I take my hat off to all of you that were out, I should have been there but, for personal reasons, wasn't (luckily).

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Originally Posted by Marvin

Don't be too hard on the guy at Honister. He provided a huge amount of support - warmth, tea and coffee and transport.

Also, his spokesman was giving a much more considered response this morning on Sky News.

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Only you could find a computer in the middle of all this;)
is your car okay, if u need fetching you know where i am

To add two penny worth - we upgraded from the A to the elite when they reduced the routes, got round fine (well a little cold and wet) and many thanks to Mark who gave a hand getting across some of the enlarged streams (one time coming back up hill to help).

We dod carry extra kit bit most of the time it was not that bad

We ended up spending the night in a climbing hut where a certain Mike Parsons (organiser) was - as of last night there were 30 runners un accounted for not 1500

apparently the worse injury was a broken leg caused some-how by a portaloo....

saying on Sky TV that there are now just 3 unaccounted for runners...lets all hope and pray they are safe and just out of contact

Everybody is reducing the issue of criticism of the organisers (by me and others) to a question of were they or weren't they right to go ahead with the race. But that's only part of it (and in some ways the part about their actions for which they are the least culpable, too because I accept there is always some degree of luck as well as judgement involved.)

But starting yesterday afternoon, there have been a stream of posts from worried spouses on the OMM board who had partners in the race yet still, even this morning, not a single official word from the race organisers to address them. Other runners who'd made it home and fell runners not in the race (like some people here) posted words to calm them but surely part of the job of a race organiser is to act responsibly in situations like this and keep people informed? Could not a single official statement of any kind be made?

Bit worrying that there is an odd number unaccounted for - hope he/she is OK.

Splinter, have you any idea what a mountain marathon is?

One of the problems was there was no mobile phone coverage in the area. Secondly the road was closed by flooding cutting off the race HQ. Thirdly they might be a bit busy....
There might not be so much worry if the media weren't hyping it up and portraying the competitors as passive victims needing rescuing - look at it another way ie atrocious conditions yet so far 98% of teams coped ok with just a few minor injuries, and rest are hopefully just making their way back. I think that says a lot about the experience and endurance of the competitors. We retired after a couple of hours on long score because of concerns about injury - but thoroughly enjoyed it none the less. It's up to competitors to assess their own ability to compete and know what to do to get out of trouble - hopefully that won't change

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Originally Posted by Bladerunner

Splinter, have you any idea what a mountain marathon is?

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Yes, shockingly I've even managed to complete a couple of them. I guess I wasn't aware that being self-reliant and able to run safely in the hills precluded an awareness that one still lives in the real world and, even when able to look after yourself, one still bears some responsibility towards the other people at home who are involved in your life.

I'm sick of this thread because in refusing to accept reality, in my view it is just making the entire sport look myopic and runners selfish and self-obsessed. Someone above implied the organisers might have a bit too busy to make a statement. Surely making a statement is one of the exact things they should have been busy doing, or does everyone just think that keeping the spouses/partners/siblings sat at home and worried without any official information perfectly acceptable behaviour. Well, I don't and I'm sorry if anyone finds that offensive.

Nice to find that in in this community of iconclasts and individualists (sic), when push comes to shove there's always critcism for those who don't toe the party line.

makes you wonder about the rest of the BBC's news reports.

Splinter,

The organisers responsibilities were clearly to direct their efforts to making sure that all competitors were accounted for. Its way off target to criticise them for not making any statements. This wasnt their responsibility, this wasnt their priority, this wasnt necessary.

I think you'll find that the Cumbria Police have been making these statements that you see such a need for. Though I suspect this has only been because of the baying wolves amongst the media pack and the hysterical rantings of non-running partners.

The organisers arent ducking their responsibilities, and the competitors certainly havent been ducking theirs. To paraphrase Sartre, hell is being created by other people....

Back home and safe after a memorable and actually, terrific weekend. Haven't yet peeked into my bag to pinch out the soggy contents at arms length yet, that's to come before a nice long bath.

There's bound to be differing views as to whether it should have been called off or not and there are also those who are looking for blame to be attached. Whatever your view, surely everyone agrees that it was a tough call to actually, physically make and be responsible for. By defintion, tough decisions are easy to get wrong so let's cut some people some slack.

The key is that lessons are learned. I'm sure we all agree on that.

I don't think any runner expected anything from the organisers. Self-reliance is the essence of this. The only expectations we have, I beleive, are the most fundamental things, which is the provision of a good competition and facilities to match, which were all there and fine, and the provision of good information to all concerned, circumstances permitting, when things go wrong. Including loved ones and especailly the media.

It's that latter point where lessons need learning, and this is noone's fault cos i imagine the organisers have not been in this position before. Whilst it's hard to get informaiton to all runners, it is easier to get some information to the media. In the event of a vacuum, the media will fill it with shite. Charity runners, 1000's still on the fells....all garbage.

Someone should know it's their job to liaise with the media at times like this. Communications lies at the heart of any emergency plan. Such a person can chase key facts and report them accurately, which the media will do given half a chance, despite what folks might think. If they knew that, say, x hundred dibbers had been handed in, y hundred were at cockermouth, honister etc and that the rest are all looking after themselves on the hills, the story gets reported as the event it is rtaher than the one the media assume it to be.

When more inforation about the event and the types of people that do it became available, the media changed what they reported and it became more accurate. So a key lesson has to be that someone picks this role up and actively seeks the kind of information to provide the media with a true picture. This is not a dig, because who could have predicted this with any degree of accuracy? But my missus, who like many others who wondered what the hell was going on would have been happier to know that our dibber had been handed in and we were accounted for.

at times like this, it's easy to play the blame game. Better to think constructvely about what could be done differently and more effectively next time. these exact circumstances will not be repeated, not exactly, so no point in dwelling on this forcast, that field, those cars, that course etc. There will, i'm sure, be a future instance where information needs to be gathered and communicated, and that is where some of the post-mortem's attention should go.

Finally, i would also ask the organisers to consider whether the sheer size of the event/number of competetors needs a look. Did having so many make life especailly difficult and raise the risks? Not sure myselkf, but that is something they can control, unlike the weather.

Thanks to all those who organised it and I genuinely look forward to next year.

ST

Half of these news reporters and presenters will probably call 'running' and thing you do on a treadmill. And anything outside is just obsessive.
Like the majority of non-runners think that if you run more that a couple of miles on the flat your not normal.
On Friday i was getting my haircut and i told her that on Saturday (yesterday) i would be doing a 13 miler. You should have seen her jaw drop. And when i told her that i caught the bus from Preston to Keswick to run up ashness bridge to Walla crag....she said i was mental. She has no idea!


So all these people; particularly the news, that are slagging all that’s happened off should shut their mouths and talk about something they actually have knowledge about.....people like that just drive me mad.

I don't get this. My only thought is "wish I'd been there". How bad could it be? Have none of you "j'accuse!" brigade ever been out in a tent on a wild night up on the tops. If not: stop calling yourselves mountaineers. If it gets too bad -walk off. What's the problem? The only grounds I can think of for closing the event would be the problem of flooding in the car parking area. After all it's no joke to get back and find your car full of water.
By the way great to see orienteering get a mention although it might be a bit harder to persuade parents to let their children come on my events in future!
Point for the future is closer vetting of participants if some, in truth, are up there without the wherewithal.

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Originally Posted by Swiss Toni

Back home and safe after a memorable and actually, terrific weekend. Haven't yet peeked into my bag to pinch out the soggy contents at arms length yet, that's to come before a nice long bath.

There's bound to be differing views as to whether it should have been called off or not and there are also those who are looking for blame to be attached. Whatever your view, surely everyone agrees that it was a tough call to actually, physically make and be responsible for. By defintion, tough decisions are easy to get wrong so let's cut some people some slack.

The key is that lessons are learned. I'm sure we all agree on that.

I don't think any runner expected anything from the organisers. Self-reliance is the essence of this. The only expectations we have, I beleive, are the most fundamental things, which is the provision of a good competition and facilities to match, which were all there and fine, and the provision of good information to all concerned, circumstances permitting, when things go wrong. Including loved ones and especailly the media.

It's that latter point where lessons need learning, and this is noone's fault cos i imagine the organisers have not been in this position before. Whilst it's hard to get informaiton to all runners, it is easier to get some information to the media. In the event of a vacuum, the media will fill it with shite. Charity runners, 1000's still on the fells....all garbage.

Someone should know it's their job to liaise with the media at times like this. Communications lies at the heart of any emergency plan. Such a person can chase key facts and report them accurately, which the media will do given half a chance, despite what folks might think. If they knew that, say, x hundred dibbers had been handed in, y hundred were at cockermouth, honister etc and that the rest are all looking after themselves on the hills, the story gets reported as the event it is rtaher than the one the media assume it to be.

When more inforation about the event and the types of people that do it became available, the media changed what they reported and it became more accurate. So a key lesson has to be that someone picks this role up and actively seeks the kind of information to provide the media with a true picture. This is not a dig, because who could have predicted this with any degree of accuracy? But my missus, who like many others who wondered what the hell was going on would have been happier to know that our dibber had been handed in and we were accounted for.

at times like this, it's easy to play the blame game. Better to think constructvely about what could be done differently and more effectively next time. these exact circumstances will not be repeated, not exactly, so no point in dwelling on this forcast, that field, those cars, that course etc. There will, i'm sure, be a future instance where information needs to be gathered and communicated, and that is where some of the post-mortem's attention should go.

Finally, i would also ask the organisers to consider whether the sheer size of the event/number of competetors needs a look. Did having so many make life especailly difficult and raise the risks? Not sure myselkf, but that is something they can control, unlike the weather.

Thanks to all those who organised it and I genuinely look forward to next year.

ST

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Very well put!

Swiss Toni,

I think your comments are very useful and informative, and come from the perspective of an experienced competitor.

I am sure that, whilst I am fully supportive of the organisers and all that they have done to stage this event, and equally full of praise and thanks for the great efforts they have made to deal with the consequences once the event had to be cancelled, there will be lessons to be learned. The time for this debate is some time in the future and it will be the responsibility of the organisers themselves, not of this forum.

But, are you really suggesting that one of the changes that needs to be made is that the organisers communicate with the media more effectively?? I think this would and should come a long way down their priority list. They are fell race organisers, for heaven's sake, not spin doctors.

I think you'll find that some people, such as Rob Howard, did their best to get the right message across to the media in very difficult circumstances and should be applauded for it. Others, seeing a good chance for self-publicity perhaps - mentioning no names - sought to get their own, rather different message across, and have (rightly in my view), as events have unfolded, been drowned out by the voices of competitors and other experienced commentators.

I fully agree that we should treat the media coverage, and any expert criticism that results, seriously - or more accurately we should trust the organisers to do this. But lets not get carried away.

That's fair enough Malky, and i'm not for one second suggesting anyone acted out of turn and wasn;t busting a gut to do what needed doing.

FOr each competitor there are dozens of loved ones. Spin is what these people do not need to hear, and having someone acting as a point of contact for reliable and honest informaiton avoids it. Spin is what happens when someone doesn;t look after this side of things, esp when things go wrong.

Having someone making sure the rght information gets out there is not getting carried away. It avoids (or provides more chance of avoiding) the wrong information getting out there and noone wants that.

The emphasis of the role i was thinking about was not so much media but information. That is actually a high priority in any event involving thousands of people, esp when the shit hits the fan.

Spin doctors are those media people who reported this as a charity run, with 1000's trapped on the fells etc etc.

Splinter, go and run on the roads. We take responsibility for our own actions in this sport and thank organisers for giving up their own time putting races on that we can participate in them. Most of us also run on the fells to get away from all the regulation and paperwork that is commonplace in most other forms of running. Next you'll be suggesting that someone should sue the organisers for not calling the event off or talking to the media!!

According to news reports all runners have been accounted for.

EXCELLENT NEWS

Everyone now accounted for.:):):)

Thank heavens for that :)

Malky is right, let's celebrate that and allow the debate to happen once the dust is settled.

Toni, the reason the organisers probably never said anything is they were unaware of how many were still on the hills etc.

If you called the OMM off in bright sunshine in the middle of summer it would take hours to account for everyone on the hills, never mind in poor conditions. Whats worse no info or incorrect info? Just cus BBC and Sky TV have got news channels to fill doesn't mean race organisers should spend their time pandering to them when they have more important things to do!!

One thing I do agree with is maybe the event is getting too big for its own good.

[quote=Bladerunner;159437]Toni, the reason the organisers probably never said anything is they were unaware of how many were still on the hills etc.
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Understand that, but say nothing and you'll see all manner of crap coming out. Say what you do know and what you beleive to be the case where there are gaps in the facts. Again, this is one for lessons learned.

All in all, the OMM organisers reacted brilliantly, cared for thousands of people, worked tirelessly and should be proud of what they did this weekend, esp if they are prepared to learn from it.

I hope they take a huge amount of satisfaction and relief knowing that everyone is accounted for.

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Originally Posted by Phil_N

According to news reports all runners have been accounted for.

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Very good news, and therefore all the media drivel will now stop and they will crawl back to where they came from.

"Good News doesn't sell"

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Originally Posted by Flightless Bird

Very good news, and therefore all the media drivel will now stop and they will crawl back to where they came from.

"Good News doesn't sell"

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:);):)
Well said my big friend.