I hope you don't mind me posting this DT but i am interested what route stevers took from yorkshire bridge on his win hill runs and whether it was a round etc. If your reading this stevers drop a post. Cheers matt.
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I hope you don't mind me posting this DT but i am interested what route stevers took from yorkshire bridge on his win hill runs and whether it was a round etc. If your reading this stevers drop a post. Cheers matt.
You don't need weights to do squats mate, well it depends what you want, muscular endurance or brute strength?Quote:
Originally Posted by ZootHornRollo
Many reps of the normal squats should suffice for fell running I would say, but I'm no expert.
Hands on temples, feet shoulder width apart, bend legs to 90 degrees, back straight, head up....repeat.
Obviously using a weight bar with weights will increase strength and muscle size, but they will burn out quicker on a long run, I would suspect ;)
Back on topic, been bagging around 10k foot now for the last few weeks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tri-mind
I know the answer to this as I was usually out with Steve...
generally straight up parkin clough. best to descend via the less steep track towards the dam every other rep until you get used to it. It's quite a hard session really. not that interesting but reasonably sheltered from bad weather, steep, near to sheffield and no navigational issues. You can just switch your head off and get on with it. BG pace for one rep is 34 minutes
I'm off there this evening!
Thanks Ian.
Im hitting just short of 2500:o But i dont have a big hill within running distance of my house!Quote:
Originally Posted by ukhursty
I know the feeling, it sucks. When I was living in Manchester, the closest thing to a hill when running from my house was a mound about 20ft, other than that, all I had was the trails along the Mersey.Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fowler
I cant complain though. Ive got miles of footpaths within not far from my house which would be a hundred times better than living within a concrete mess like yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by ukhursty
It would have been nice ice the ice-age had dropped off winter hill, bowland and pendle a little closer though.;)
Thats why I moved home, to be right next to Bowland fells and Pendle :cool:Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fowler
to be honest, I'm finding normal squats too ... er, easy :oQuote:
Originally Posted by ukhursty
all that british military fitness training has obviously done the trick!
I think adding a fairly low weight - i.e., just a weights bar - could really help endurance as long as you can still do long, multiple sets of reps.
Sounds like a good plan mate, increase the weight and try and aim for the same amount of reps :)Quote:
Originally Posted by ZootHornRollo
Just enjoyed catching up on this lot. I'm looking at a go at PBR in 2011. I have a question that someone hinted at earlier in the thread. - What are the most popular months to attempt & why? - Cheers in advance.
I always thought it was to get as much possible light and in the hope of getting a best of the weather - usually june by the sounds of things!Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Zodiac
June/July could be hot (More likely stair-rods) but could be hot. I've run an Ultra in the heat last July, got round but suffered a bit, I was thinking late August, granted I'd lose an hour or so of daylight but I'm wondering if the trade would be worth it - if per chance I was to land on an early Autumn cool day.
If you know the route I don't think thats too late. I did my Paddy in the middle of August, it was dark about 8:30-9, but then was light 5ish. So I did all the snowdon leg and to Bwlch Tryfan from dusk > dawn. Cost me a bit of time, but not enough to be significant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Zodiac
I reckon May is good, but many people lose fitness over winter and need a good few months to get going.
Iain - that's exactly my thinking - May would be too early in the year for me - Would prefer to scout it out through the summer months and run it in slightly cooler weather. I'm giving this 10,000 ft a week notion some thought also.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
I'm very interested in how you guys make up your 10000ft. Do you do several hill rep sessions over a week, a couple of big sessions in the fells, or some combination thereof? Getting, say 5000ft of ascent into a hill rep session seems horrendous!
Living in Snowdonia 10,000ft is pretty straight forwards. A long run at the weekend will easily be 3000ft, hill reps are 1500ft, a few mid week hill runs will be 2000ft each, then a few road runs normally have ~1000ft each, and before you know it you are at 10k without really planning to.
Sounds like the perfect solution, don't think I can move to Snowdonia any time soon unfortunately!
whilst I'm sure it's sage advice, I don't think the 10,000ft / week is like a necessary ruleQuote:
Originally Posted by Beowulf
people who don't live near hills (like me) won't get this amount in every week, or even most weeks
but I've been encouraged by messages from people who've managed to focus their training differently: long weekends of progressively bigger days in the hills building up to the attempt for instance.
what matters to me is whether I can do, say, a 45-mile 18,000ft day, or the Fellsman, in a reasonable time - if I can then I'd hope the BG was within reach.
Ive done about 1500ft in about 20 miles of running since monday.......no chance of me ultra running this year :p
ZHR
regarding squats.
yes they can be a good help with strength for descending, training
Eccentric contaction of the muscle.
that is contraction against a lenthening force.
Its what happens when you brake as you descend.
the same action is produced as you drop into a squat.
There are a couple of reasons to do squats with weights.
1 - the momentum of running multiples the forces as you hit the ground on a descent (hence it can hurt alot the next day). To mimick this you need to add weight to your squats. (which can also hurt alot the next day, so build up gradually.
2 - lifting a weight forces you to focus on correct technique of movement.
an unweighted squat, you just do without thinking.
add 20 odd kgs and suddenly you become aware of the need to engage all sorts of muscles to maintain control, you have to apply a technique.
If you are goign to do them then I'd absolutely recommend you have a quick session with a lifting expert to get some coaching on correct technique.
I'd suggest you don't aim to build up to massive weights, instead aim to increase reps.
I've found squats have reduced post descending muscle pain. I used them this time last year in my BG build up (though dropped them later as my fell climbing increased). 3 or 4 sets of 10 reps at 40kg
More recently I've been doing lighter more dynamic squats - 25kg dropping quickly in and jumping out. First time I did 10sets 10 reps - too many, stiff and achey down hamstrings and back.
next time i did 5 sets 10 reps - still stiff
next time 3 sets 10 reps - ok
So from that experience I'd recommend you start with just 2 sets 10 reps with 20kg. build an extra set in each time you go (twice a week) build up to 10 sets. then go up to 25kg.
You might feel sluggish running the day after.
NB
warm up with a couple of sets of slow controlled squats (not dynamic)
and start with advice on technique
absolutely brilliant that Andy, ta!
pleasure.
It might be worth spending a couple of weeks only doing slow and controlled, before getting into drop and jump.
Just to add to Andy K (Re Squats) No problem with squats as a general body strengthener with some emphasis on the quads - there's a big difference in effect between free weight squats and machine squats to be considered. If I were wanting an excercize which would isolate my quads using free weights I would choose lunges. Lunges done in correct style mimic the weght forward action of descending runner. lunges can be done using two dumbells or a small barbell. Check this dude out, I could have chosen from a few examples but this guy made me laugh most:D On a serious note his 'form' in executing the excersize is good - a few reps of these will have you hurting:confused:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWInSl98Fhk
I could have got through my day quite happily without seeing those shorts!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Zodiac
and what's that? I'm assuming free weights is 'better'?
thanks for the lunges suggestion
THe dynamic squats suggested by Andy K is a great exercise for helping develop the eccentric strength runners need . I've written a couple of blogs on resistance training for runners that takes the concept a little further.
http://andydubois.blogspot.com/2009/...rs-part-1.html
http://andydubois.blogspot.com/2009/...rs-part-2.html
Hope you find in interesting
That's the difference with free 'free squats' (Classic Barbell on the back of your shoulders) You have to 'balance' and 'control' the ascent and decent of the weights - which 'works out' lots of other stabilising muscles. Great if you want a general work out. There is a more difficult to perfect technique where the barbell is held across the chest 'hooked' onto the front of your shoulders and kept in place with crossed arms - this places the weight further forward and works the lower quads more. There are many techniques when doing 'free weight' assisted squats, slight differences in foot position and heal elevation can also further isolate areas of the quads - which are a massive muscle group after all. If you know an old time bodybuilder (Who uses free weights more than chrome machines) He/She would be worth buying a pint (of protein supplement!) and get some guidance on 'form' and execution. With the advent of Chrome and carpet gyms a lot of the old barbell techniques have gone in my opinion! The obvious advantage of learning and perfecting free weight technique is that you can do in the garage cheaply. Hope this helps along with other folks stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by ZootHornRollo
Just read your links Andy D - (minus the snazzy shorts!) I naturally came to lunges based on passed weight lifting experience for other sports, I haven't tried them specifically for running yet, but may experiment when I feel I'm not getting enough ascent/decent in to see if it benefits me - Have you used lunges or any of the techniques in your articles to supplement or replace hill ascent/descent and if so - did you notice the difference?
In the BMF sessions we do a lot of what I suppose you'd call dynamic lunges or jump-lunges, where you jump between left and right side lunge, staying in the same spot. Hard work.
It's hard to tell but as a Londoner, I dont have easy access to any decent hills so when I trained for UTMB in 2007 I supplemented running up and down hampstead heath with repeats of the 8 flights of stairs in my apartment block and lunges in the gym. Who knows what made the difference but I managed under 29 hours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Zodiac
My personal opinion is if you have access to hills and you want to improve your ability to handle running down hills then you should run down hills, however one or two sessions of lunges a week only takes 20-30 minutes and can significantly improve the eccentric ability of your quads not to mention increase the strength in your glutes and improve your overall running efficiency.
Dynamic lunges are even better than normal lunges.
While 10,000' a week in training for the BG or similar may pretty much guarantee the level of fitness needed, there are lots of factors that can still mean an unsuccessful attempt in spite of any amount of training (eg weather, stomach problems preventing eating/drinking, poor navigation, mental factors).Quote:
Originally Posted by ZootHornRollo
That level of training definitely isn't necessary... my 22.30 BG in 2007 was based on missing nearly all February with flu, then putting in half a dozen long runs (of 4-7 hours each) in the 3 months to June, including just two weeks of more than 10,000', one of which featured the Old County Tops race.
The success criteria for me were:
- eating and drinking a lot (I ate so much that I had to stop twice for a cr*p)
- having dry but cool weather (no heat or navigation problems)
- excellent company (people I felt really at ease with, especially important on the last couple of legs when it gets psychologically harder)
- the psychological benefit of every leg being on or quicker than schedule
- a couple of Ibuprofen at Wasdale
- clean socks and vaseline at the start of each leg
- and Natalie's chocolate banana cake
So ZHR, I'm sure you'll have no problem in terms of fitness if you can build up to a couple of the sort of long days you have planned in the run up.
ZHR I endorse everything said by BFMK. I think its possible to get too hung up on an idea that you have to do a certain number of miles or a ceratin amount of climbing every week for n number of weeks or you wont do it. I had a friend who did it in 2007 through just a few months prep, mainly in the dark Peak and certainlyno where near 10,000 feet weekly. he only recc'd the route a few weeks before hand. I failed my first attempt mainly due to inexperience and lack of prep mainly on the diet front and too little hill training. A year later nailed it in 22 .20. I did concerntrate more on up and down hilling than previously but got no where near 10000 a week. I knew the route like the back of my hand by then and tried to put in a few 10/11 hour days in lakes and Wales during April and may but probably only 5 all in all. The rest i slogged up and down Kinder nearer to home or repped hills on the Dorset coast near to hwere my bro lives. the rest was sheer psych and determination. I visualised alot about what it would be like to finnish and used that to get me through diffcult phases. i think the key is be staedy and never give up and as BFMW says its a real psychological boost to be a bit ahead of your schedule so work to a 22 hour time table and you will by your self that time and feel good about it.
I gather you live in South. If I did i'd hit the downs and rep and rep, up and down and forget the undulating distsnce runs. good luck
What about an early morning run up some of those down esculators in the underground. plenty of climbing there,Quote:
Originally Posted by andydubois
What ever happened to London Urban fell race?? 1st April I believe
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corniceman
thanks for the advice and encouragement, and bfmk too :)
at the moment I am doing undulating distance runs every Saturday: was going to try a 32 miler tomorrow, further than I've ever run before.
I was working on the basis that in between getting to 'real hills' I should just try to run for as far (or for as long a time) as possible - maybe getting it up to 6-7 hours.
But you think hill reps would be more useful?
I think you need to vary it Adrian, have you set a date yet? I'm doing both hill rep sessions and long days out and the hill rep sessions vary too. Somedays they are long hills with varied reps i.e fast and short, long and steady etc others it's the same hill but a lot shorter but many more reps and where I can't get out (I live in a very flat place too) I improvise all the time. This can be 350 stair reps whilst the kids eat their tea or an hour on maximum incline on the treadmill whilst it's snowing outside (last tuesday!)Quote:
Originally Posted by ZootHornRollo
I can't run long days on both weekend days because of the family etc but invariably sundays are the days where I'll get the hours and the steady climbs in the legs and of course mean a drive off somewhere to do that.
From my own point of view and whether this applies to you or not I feel well no I KNOW I can keep running for 6 or 7 or 8 etc hours on the flat or slightly undulating (and have done ultra's in the past to know that for sure) but feel yes there is a need to get some climbing in the legs for sure. Having not done a BG (yet) I don't know how much the 10,000ft a week applies but I loved Cornicemans post and tbh it made me feel a whole lot better as have been under a cloud of doom these last couple of weeks about it all - I think the bad weather hampering plans has contributed vastly to that. But, I do know if I don't train to climb hills then I ain't gonna be able to climb hills no matter how much my mind tells me otherwise!!!
emmilou, don't forget you've done an Ironman and that blooming RRR50 on a wretched day. You can and have run all day. Its all about the climbing and descent ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Derby Tup
eggggsackerly! like ZHR though, it's pan flat from outta the front door :mad:
Em, just so i know for - future:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by emmilou
Where are you getting you climbing and general off-road runs done?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Fowler
where ever my little golf takes me!