Makes you proud to be British

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Originally Posted by are we there yet

Well for me that's the answer, whoever adds 'making racism illegal' onto their manifesto is getting my vote!!

Simple- racism is wrong.

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So is suppression of free speech. Unfortunately you cannot caveat free speech: "free speech is fine as long as I agree with it".:rolleyes:

Racism will always exist and we will always have to live alongside it. It's disappointing - from the point of view of a non-racist - that the BNP have won a platform to spread their message further, but the way around that isn't to ban the BNP. It is to address the root cause of their success:

- Economic downturn always leads to greater success for those of extreme political views

- Disillusionment with the existing political mechanisms

- Anger at the behaviour of our elected representatives

- Lack of a sensible, workable immigration policy

- In areas of high tension as a result of poor integration, an effective community integration policy (very hard to make work without it looking like tokenism/pandering/contrived)

To name a few. Plenty to be getting on with then.;)

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Originally Posted by southernsoftie

So is suppression of free speech. Unfortunately you cannot caveat free speech: "free speech is fine as long as I agree with it".:rolleyes:

Racism will always exist and we will always have to live alongside it. It's disappointing - from the point of view of a non-racist - that the BNP have won a platform to spread their message further, but the way around that isn't to ban the BNP. It is to address the root cause of their success:

- Economic downturn always leads to greater success for those of extreme political views

- Disillusionment with the existing political mechanisms

- Anger at the behaviour of our elected representatives

- Lack of a sensible, workable immigration policy

- In areas of high tension as a result of poor integration, an effective community integration policy (very hard to make work without it looking like tokenism/pandering/contrived)

To name a few. Plenty to be getting on with then.;)

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No thanks I'll stick with my original statement that racism is wrong - FACT!!

What you're doing up there is making excuses why people are voting for the BNP, there is no excuse, it is wrong to vote for them. There are lots of problems about, but the answer isn't voting for racists unless you are racist.

We are having this conversation about giving them freedom of speech only because racism is legal, if you think it should be legal then you are racist. If you are not racist then you know how abhorrent racism is, that it does not deserve the privilege of free speech and that it should be made illegal in order to stamp it out.

And lets face it you either are racist or you're not.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

You wouldn't put it past Brown to arrange the little egg throwing incident would you - it would keep Labour issues out of the news for 24 hours after all.

I'm certainly no soppy left winger either, but remember the way the protesters were handled when the Chinese leader was in town, and the recent G20 protesters.

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I've read this thread with some interest and have finally decided to add my contribution ....

First paragraph - Are you seriously suggesting this is what happened or are you just trying to start a conspiracy theory, surely it would have suited the government better to have smeared the BNP in some other way.

Second paragraph - "I'm certainly no soppy left winger either" was an entirely superfluous comment given your previous utterances in this thread. It is quite clear you are extremely right wing in your political opinions, the only real question is whether you actually voted for the Conservatives or whether it was in actual fact another right wing party.

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Originally Posted by Richard Head

While i had no problem 'confessing' that i voted BNP it would be pointless me trying to justify it on here because no doubt it would just end up in a slanging match

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Everything is fine up until the bit "it would be pointless me trying to justify it" change this to "I cannot justify it" and then erase the rest of the sentence and we've got it about spot on.

Any political party that has an exclusion on membership based on the colour of their skin are totally and utterly unacceptable.

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

Censorship is a term applicable to government action only, although it has been misused like above.

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Where's your evidence for this statement ??
Perhaps there was a headline on the front of The Daily Torygraph that mentioned censorship and government in the same sentence and that's all the evidence you need.

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Originally Posted by Notlob till i die

I've read this thread with some interest and have finally decided to add my contribution ....

First paragraph - Are you seriously suggesting this is what happened or are you just trying to start a conspiracy theory, surely it would have suited the government better to have smeared the BNP in some other way.

Second paragraph - "I'm certainly no soppy left winger either" was an entirely superfluous comment given your previous utterances in this thread. It is quite clear you are extremely right wing in your political opinions, the only real question is whether you actually voted for the Conservatives or whether it was in actual fact another right wing party.

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There are people who seriously suggest that the Twin Towers was allowed to happen - have you seen Fahrenheit 911?
I'm not seriously suggesting anything - it was in the context of the thread and it was seriously suggested on a National radio phone in that I listened to on Wednesday and I thought the guy had a point.
Look at how they leak things when it suits them.

I am not "extremely" right wing at all - I have (always) voted Tory and you shouldn't be so crass as to accuse me of otherwise. I would describe myself as reasonably aligned with Ken Clarke and Heseltine in political terms.

I take people at face value on this forum, the varied views are interesting, I find the debate interesting, and there's certainly no call for your insinuation against me.

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Originally Posted by are we there yet

Can I ask perhaps a stupid question:

is racism illegal ?

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Under the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 Ss 28-32 where certain offences are committed and there exists 'racial aggravation' the severity of the maximum liability is increased.

Well, this is an interesting way to spend an hour! My tuppence worth...

There's more than strong hint from a lot of posters here that democracy's fine - except when people have different views to that which they hold. Who was it that said "Democracy is the worst form of government, but it's better than any of the others"...?

I for one am bloody glad I live in a country where the BNP are allowed to put their case, whether it's "right" or "wrong" as far as I or anyone else is concerned. And I have no problem either with being asked in the street if I want a copy of the Socialist Workers party latest newspaper, or if I want to give my life to Jesus.

What I do have a problem with though is being fearful of being bombed on a tube, kicked in a cell, or pelted with eggs. (Not that any of those have happend to me). Violence and intimidation (outside defensive war - now there's another thread we can start...) has no place whatever it's creed or political colour

All I ever see the main stream politicans say about the BNP is "they're bad, they're racist" without defining either of those terms.

Griffin and his other pal (can't remember the name of the other one who got elected) are both articulate and persausive - whether they're being fraudulent, sparing with the truth or actually open and honest (very doubtful this latter one tho cos they are politicians after all). Did anyone see I think it was Newsnight the other day when Griffin's pal was being interviewed with Margaret Hodge. He ran rings round her. If our so called experienced moderate politicians can't do any better than say they're bad people so stick with us, is it any wonder that the people (mainstream politicians) who have lost the trust confidence and respect of normal folk don't get our vote.

Labour didn't do badly at the elections cos of expenses or because of protest votes. They did badly cos they've proved themselves to be incompetent. What a shame it's taken 10 years for most to realise

(...duck's very quickly awaiting the blairites and brownians to react ;) )

Stick - I agree very much with what you have said - must make us a pair of looney right wing extremists according to Notlob!

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Originally Posted by Richard Head

While i had no problem 'confessing' that i voted BNP it would be pointless me trying to justify it on here because no doubt it would just end up in a slanging match

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Actually RH it would be really interesting to know why you changed from Labour, who purport, at least, to stand for freedom, justice and greater opportunities for all especially the disadvantaged to a party that stands for the exact opposite,. But that's only my opinion. You probably think I've got it all wrong about the BNP. Why don't you explain? I for one won't slag you off.

CL you get really upset about people like you being discriminated against and controlled, but when you have to wear a yellow star on your coat or go to the back of the bus to make way for someone witha better skin tone;: that's discrimination. I am not afraid of Norman Tebbit or Tony Benn but I feel real fear about the BNP. I have a foreign name but all my life I've been just another Tyke. Since the influx of workers from eastern Europe suddenly I'm wondering, will the anger these "British workers" feel be turned against me, my wife and daughter? Stop getting excited about little things, stop showing off, think.

GD _ I don't think you have anything to worry about. The small number of voters who actually put their cross next to BNP will get wiped out at a general election.

Purport - "have the often specious appearance of being, intending, or claiming"
That does accurately describe the approach of "New" Labour to freedom, justice and greater opportunities.

You are right not to be frightened of people like Tebbit and Benn - quality politicians with differing views. Genuine - where have they all gone?

Thanks for encouraging comments WP and NB. I did indeed use the word "purport" with the intention of conveying that precise meaning. All I want is a pragmatic government with more faith in the people and a little less overbearing self-belief.
Just look at my avatar. It's the BNP that needs to frightened.:D

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Originally Posted by Guick Dotto

Thanks for encouraging comments WP and NB. I did indeed use the word "purport" with the intention of conveying that precise meaning. All I want is a pragmatic government with more faith in the people and a little less overbearing self-belief.
Just look at my avatar. It's the BNP that needs to frightened.:D

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GD your welcome, the BNP are frightened of anyone who understand the politics, because i feel BNP target issues where the goverment have not fully given the public the correct information, BNP is built on ignorance.

And the reason i feel people did not vote this year, is not because they wanted BNP in, i think if they had all the information they would have voted, but i feel they did not vote because of the policians who got greedy, that is the only reason why people got P off and did not vote not because people wanted BNP in, that again was sadly BNP advantage, ignorance was again in the lack of information given.

Because if people had known what would have happened, i feel they would have voted, it happened at the wrong time straight after all the 2nd homes incidences, perfect timing for BNP votes.

GD you will always be welcome in my world, one that does not include a BNP.

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Originally Posted by Notlob till i die

Where's your evidence for this statement ??
Perhaps there was a headline on the front of The Daily Torygraph that mentioned censorship and government in the same sentence and that's all the evidence you need.

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If I refuse to let Mr Griffin into my house to speak is that censorship? If I refuse to let Mr Griffin advertise the BNP in my journal is that censorship?

Refusing to deal with others because one disagrees is not censorship.

Preventing consenting adults from expressing ideas one doesn't like is censorship, and can only be established(and is being) by the state I.e. Government.

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Originally Posted by are we there yet

No thanks I'll stick with my original statement that racism is wrong - FACT!!

What you're doing up there is making excuses why people are voting for the BNP, there is no excuse, it is wrong to vote for them. There are lots of problems about, but the answer isn't voting for racists unless you are racist.

We are having this conversation about giving them freedom of speech only because racism is legal, if you think it should be legal then you are racist. If you are not racist then you know how abhorrent racism is, that it does not deserve the privilege of free speech and that it should be made illegal in order to stamp it out.

And lets face it you either are racist or you're not.

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Do you believe in the democratic system?

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Originally Posted by Guick Dotto

Actually RH it would be really interesting to know why you changed from Labour, who purport, at least, to stand for freedom, justice and greater opportunities for all especially the disadvantaged to a party that stands for the exact opposite,. But that's only my opinion. You probably think I've got it all wrong about the BNP. Why don't you explain? I for one won't slag you off.

CL you get really upset about people like you being discriminated against and controlled, but when you have to wear a yellow star on your coat or go to the back of the bus to make way for someone witha better skin tone;: that's discrimination. I am not afraid of Norman Tebbit or Tony Benn but I feel real fear about the BNP. I have a foreign name but all my life I've been just another Tyke. Since the influx of workers from eastern Europe suddenly I'm wondering, will the anger these "British workers" feel be turned against me, my wife and daughter? Stop getting excited about little things, stop showing off, think.

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Guick do you agree with the democratic system?

Read this - I believe in Hope rather than Hate.

Me too, old tune but its true, "Hate is all the world has even seen lately":(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPD6YiBFG1Q
Its not Mission Impossible, all you have to do is talk to people and be tolerant, and if they're rrrrr's holes, put some manners on em:mad:
Nowt's ever simple though:confused: Perhaps i am!!

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

Guick do you agree with the democratic system?

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I believe in democracy. I believe that Evil is a reality. I believe it will never go away as long as humans walk the earth. I believe that the BNP is a manifestation of that evil. Democrats must denounce the BNP with all vigour. If the fascists have a right to speak in our democracy then they must accept the consequence that all right thinking people will heap opprobrium on them. If they express their anti-democratic views freely they must be prepared to hear a rebuttal that is a thousand times stronger because they are outnumbered to that extent. You CL should be using all your debating skills to damn them and damn them again. The BNP must lose this argument before it takes root and begins to germinate in the minds of the gullible and fools.
Let them speak but then let them be damned!

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Originally Posted by Guick Dotto

I believe in democracy. I believe that Evil is a reality. I believe it will never go away as long as humans walk the earth. I believe that the BNP is a manifestation of that evil. Democrats must denounce the BNP with all vigour. If the fascists have a right to speak in our democracy then they must accept the consequence that all right thinking people will heap opprobrium on them. If they express their anti-democratic views freely they must be prepared to hear a rebuttal that is a thousand times stronger because they are outnumbered to that extent. You CL should be using all your debating skills to damn them and damn them again. The BNP must lose this argument before it takes root and begins to germinate in the minds of the gullible and fools.
Let them speak but then let them be damned!

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Powerful words passionately expressed GD

Does anyone know if it's true that Nick Griffin has two rottweilers named Anne and Frank as was claimed by someone quoting the Sunday Times this morning on the Andrew Marr show? If it is I suspect it might give some clues as to the man's thought process

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Originally Posted by Derby Tup

Powerful words passionately expressed GD

Does anyone know if it's true that Nick Griffin has two rottweilers named Anne and Frank as was claimed by someone quoting the Sunday Times this morning on the Andrew Marr show? If it is I suspect it might give some clues as to the man's thought process

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According to the profile here yes it is true http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6493540.ece
:(:(

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Originally Posted by Guick Dotto

I believe in democracy. I believe that Evil is a reality. I believe it will never go away as long as humans walk the earth. I believe that the BNP is a manifestation of that evil. Democrats must denounce the BNP with all vigour. If the fascists have a right to speak in our democracy then they must accept the consequence that all right thinking people will heap opprobrium on them. If they express their anti-democratic views freely they must be prepared to hear a rebuttal that is a thousand times stronger because they are outnumbered to that extent. You CL should be using all your debating skills to damn them and damn them again. The BNP must lose this argument before it takes root and begins to germinate in the minds of the gullible and fools.
Let them speak but then let them be damned!

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And there this thread should end. I don't think anyone could put it any better than that.

Though obviously it hasn't. And no doubt it will still cause more ructions before it finally runs out of steam.:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Guick Dotto

I believe in democracy. I believe that Evil is a reality. I believe it will never go away as long as humans walk the earth. I believe that the BNP is a manifestation of that evil. Democrats must denounce the BNP with all vigour. If the fascists have a right to speak in our democracy then they must accept the consequence that all right thinking people will heap opprobrium on them. If they express their anti-democratic views freely they must be prepared to hear a rebuttal that is a thousand times stronger because they are outnumbered to that extent. You CL should be using all your debating skills to damn them and damn them again. The BNP must lose this argument before it takes root and begins to germinate in the minds of the gullible and fools.
Let them speak but then let them be damned!

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If you support democracy as it exists today, then you support discrimination. You cannot honestly say "I'm opposed to discrimination in racial matters, but support discrimination in other areas." To do so is to hold a double standard, one that leaves you defeated in any intellectual exchange.

Let me explain: People don't seem to have grasped explicitly that democracy is a system of benefits and sacrifices. If it wasn't, the government wouldn't steal from one Man and give to another. So they(the voters) play the game by voting for the party who'll either give them the most benefits, or who'll sacrifice them the least.

So we reach the position we're at today, with the Labour government discriminating against certain groups to buy votes. Those groups realising their heads are on the sacrificial block, want to protect themselves from this discrimination and search for a political party that'll stand up for them. Today that party is the BNP.

Now it's all very well you mentioning the fear YOU feel, because you don't want to be discriminated against on racial grounds, but millions of brits have already realised this fear in other areas, and are sick of it. It's all very well Nicklas saying I don't feel discrimated against. The fact is millions do, and they see it every day in their work.

I don't support this system of benefits and sacrifices(democracy). So I hold all the parties with almost the same contempt.

You sound like a god mate.

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Originally Posted by Guick Dotto

You sound like a god mate.

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Particularly when I sing in the bath.:)

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

If you support democracy as it exists today, then you support discrimination. You cannot honestly say "I'm opposed to discrimination in racial matters, but support discrimination in other areas." To do so is to hold a double standard, one that leaves you defeated in any intellectual exchange.

Let me explain: People don't seem to have grasped explicitly that democracy is a system of benefits and sacrifices. If it wasn't, the government wouldn't steal from one Man and give to another. So they(the voters) play the game by voting for the party who'll either give them the most benefits, or who'll sacrifice them the least.

So we reach the position we're at today, with the Labour government discriminating against certain groups to buy votes. Those groups realising their heads are on the sacrificial block, want to protect themselves from this discrimination and search for a political party that'll stand up for them. Today that party is the BNP.

Now it's all very well you mentioning the fear YOU feel, because you don't want to be discriminated against on racial grounds, but millions of brits have already realised this fear in other areas, and are sick of it. It's all very well Nicklas saying I don't feel discrimated against. The fact is millions do, and they see it every day in their work.

I don't support this system of benefits and sacrifices(democracy). So I hold all the parties with almost the same contempt.

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so you don't vote then???

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

Particularly when I sing in the bath.:)

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God help us:eek:

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

Surely the way forward is for this rabble to muster the courage to call a general election and at least place in power a government that reflects the current view of the electorate and will not be making a calculation at every announcement as to how the opinion polls will be affected.

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It's just a pity that Thatcher didn't do this before the Falklands War dropped into her lap. I am old enough to remember the rumours that intelligence was fully aware of Argentinian plans to invade the Falklands .... which would lead to the question, why didn't Thatcher act on that intelligence.

Or we could cite the Poll Tax, another of Thatcher's and your lots marvellous ideas, if it was so good why didn't she have the courage of her conviction to go to the electorate with her marvellous idea ?

By the way, if I was Lord Healey I wouldn't just hug her .... "The Prime Minister who glories in slaughter"

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

GD _ I don't think you have anything to worry about. The small number of voters who actually put their cross next to BNP will get wiped out at a general election.

Purport - "have the often specious appearance of being, intending, or claiming"
That does accurately describe the approach of "New" Labour to freedom, justice and greater opportunities.

You are right not to be frightened of people like Tebbit and Benn - quality politicians with differing views. Genuine - where have they all gone?

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Might I suggest Dennis Skinner, who Margaret Thatcher once called a "marvellous parliamentarian". Unfortunately I cannot name any current Tory MP's who might fal into this category, but then again you'd hardly expect me to do so .... :)

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Originally Posted by Notlob till i die

It's just a pity that Thatcher didn't do this before the Falklands War dropped into her lap. I am old enough to remember the rumours that intelligence was fully aware of Argentinian plans to invade the Falklands .... which would lead to the question, why didn't Thatcher act on that intelligence.

Or we could cite the Poll Tax, another of Thatcher's and your lots marvellous ideas, if it was so good why didn't she have the courage of her conviction to go to the electorate with her marvellous idea ?

By the way, if I was Lord Healey I wouldn't just hug her .... "The Prime Minister who glories in slaughter"

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Poll tax was a fantastic idea. Everyone pays an equal amount for equal services. What's the problem with that?

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

So we reach the position we're at today, with the Labour government discriminating against certain groups to buy votes. Those groups realising their heads are on the sacrificial block, want to protect themselves from this discrimination and search for a political party that'll stand up for them. Today that party is the BNP.

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So Labour would be the first government to do this ? Answer = No
Who exactly did you vote for ? Did you vote ? (I don't actually believe you did as none of the parties who you might have voted for could have actually fulfilled your exact requirements, maybe at the next election you should form the 'Christopher Leigh party' and stand for everything you believe in)

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Originally Posted by dominion

Poll tax was a fantastic idea. Everyone pays an equal amount for equal services. What's the problem with that?

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So why did it bring Thatcher down then, because Major dropped the Poll Tax pretty much as soon as he'd filled the position as 'Thatcher's chaffeur'.

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Originally Posted by Notlob till i die

So why did it bring Thatcher down then, because Major dropped the Poll Tax pretty much as soon as he'd filled the position as 'Thatcher's chaffeur'.

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Because of the ignorant population.

I remember at the time, I was a relatively new house holder and a factory worker along with my wife - with 2 kids then.

My old rates wer £170 and the new poll tax was £190 x 2 - and I was for it because it was fair.

Previously under the rates, the 2 single old ladies either side of me were both paying the same £170 per household.

So the old rates system was hardly fair was it.

It was in the Tory manifesto - so went to the public vote.

Major was guttless.

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Originally Posted by Notlob till i die

Might I suggest Dennis Skinner, who Margaret Thatcher once called a "marvellous parliamentarian". Unfortunately I cannot name any current Tory MP's who might fal into this category, but then again you'd hardly expect me to do so .... :)

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You might suggest Dennis Skinner indeed. A guy who I used to greatly admire for his principles.
He seemed like a man of conviction who would be as likely to stick the boot in to his own as he was to the opposing parties.

I don't see him on the box now, or standing up in the Commons ranting about the ridiculous part-privatisation of the Post Office!

In power - he keeps quiet - power corrupts one's principles perhaps.

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Originally Posted by Notlob till i die

So Labour would be the first government to do this ? Answer = No
Who exactly did you vote for ? Did you vote ? (I don't actually believe you did as none of the parties who you might have voted for could have actually fulfilled your exact requirements, maybe at the next election you should form the 'Christopher Leigh party' and stand for everything you believe in)

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Notlob I always enjoy your input, even though I don't usually agree with you.

Something happened when I went down to my local polling station. I was given two papers, one for the local and one for the European. So I put a tick on the European paper and I went to throw the other paper in the bin, where it belongs.

As I did so the Man at the table told me I had to put that paper in the box as well, even if I didn't vote. So I did. It only dawned on me afterwards that I should have put a cross in every box, because there was nothing preventing the counters from using my vote.

Now, I wouldn't dream of voting for any of the parties currently running in the local elections. Those who did so after everything we've seen over the past couple of months are immoral.

The only reason I voted in the European, is because on the road to freedom certain steps have to be taken. One of those steps is to reduce the bureaucratic gravy train. So I voted UKIP. I don't agree with them on everything, but as far as politicians are concerned Nigel Farrange is the most consistent.

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Originally Posted by dominion

Poll tax was a fantastic idea. Everyone pays an equal amount for equal services. What's the problem with that?

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All the bureaucrats employed to arrange the emptying of bins.

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

Notlob I always enjoy your input, even though I don't usually agree with you.

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CL, I always enjoy your input, you remind me of David Icke. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

Notlob I always enjoy your input, even though I don't usually agree with you.

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I don't think we actually agree on anything, I think (definitely) politically and in most every other aspect we are diametrically opposed. Nonetheless it would make for an awfully boring world if we and everyone else did.

For the record, for the first time ever I voted for the Green Party in the European elections, and unlike you we had no council elections, if this had been an option then I'm really not sure who I or even if I would have voted. (I've sorted myself a postal vote out so the man at the polling station wouldn't have been able to tell me I had to put a blank ballot paper into the ballot box, maybe you should consider this.)

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Originally Posted by crowhill

CL, I always enjoy your input, you remind me of David Icke. :rolleyes:

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Whereas I dont enjoy your input. Frankly the self important pretentious nature of it bores me rigid

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Originally Posted by dominion

Poll tax was a fantastic idea. Everyone pays an equal amount for equal services. What's the problem with that?

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Houses with more people in them don't have more bins to empty, nor do they require more street lighting or need greater fire service coverage. So why should a household with 5 adults pay five times the amount of a household with 1 adult?

Also (and I think this is why the poll tax was so unpopular) is it a well-established premise of UK taxation policy that those with more give more.

I note we have strayed from discussing the BNP onto random political debates and yet more psycho-analysis of Christopher Leigh's personality traits. I think this can only be a good thing. CL, I'd be interested to hear your views on what proportion of the UK's energy should come from nuclear power, and the long-term effects of wildlife tourism on the dwindling African elephant population.