Does God exist?

Who pinned the tail on the donkey?

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Originally Posted by Guick Dotto

Listening to "Thought for the Day" (I think) and this notion came out: God is existence.
When people say "of course God does not exist-what a foolish notion!" I think they are really saying "my notion of God, if he were to exist, does not exist". I can say that about a whole lot of other people's Gods. I would always argue that people who know what God is don't and can't. It's very entertaining to argue about God but if God were to be anything like a serious minded person's idea of God he/it/she would have to be unknowable.
I will not give way to anyone who suggests that existence is banal. Things may be accidental, random etc but that doesn't stop them from being utterly and unfathomably wondrous; even miraculous...
Joss Naylor on a cloud does exist.

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Absolutely. Existance is in no way banal. Its bloomin' wonderful. The amazing coincidences that have had to occur for all of us to be conscious of our existance are almost unbelieveable; not quite impossible, just very very improbable. It is amazing to live at a point in history where we now understand our existance to such an extent where we don't have to resort to supernatural sky gods for the answers.

Er, not so quickly HHH. The M-Theory is still just a theory and still incomplete and widely challenged. I find the idea of God easier to grasp than the idea of an infinite number of universes etc. Don't forget there is a book to be sold at the bottom of this and the review in The Sunday Times wasn't that glowing.
One thing for sure and that's the level of debate is refreshing and interesting. Especially the camel and donkey conundrums.

You're right, HHH. We are very fortunate to live at this point in history and appreciate the amazement. But people have felt that in earlier times and it's been destroyed for them, by natural disaster or by human failings. That still happens today in less fortunate surroundings and, in those circumstances at least, God does exist for those people. It's what gets them through the night.

I saw it personally in Bosnia in 1993. It doesn't matter which god, but you realize very quickly that the people who feel that way (and, fortunately, most do at that time) are the ones you want to be with, because the others are extremely unpleasant b@stards (evil, if you will).

This is no argument for God's existence, I'm agnostic (if Hawkins, Dawkins and the Archbishop of Canterbury can't agree, who am I to say), but the concept of God has real value for many people.

I admire what Dawkins says and I like to think of myself as enlightened in the classical sense, but I wish he wasn't so bloody evangelical about it, surely religion has a Darwinian value for human society? In a future Utopia it's maybe not necessary, but we're not quite there yet.

So, I reckon I'm saying God is a human construct and has a human value, and probably will have for a fair while yet.

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Originally Posted by Brotherton Lad

You're right, HHH. We are very fortunate to live at this point in history and appreciate the amazement. But people have felt that in earlier times and it's been destroyed for them, by natural disaster or by human failings. That still happens today in less fortunate surroundings and, in those circumstances at least, God does exist for those people. It's what gets them through the night.

I saw it personally in Bosnia in 1993. It doesn't matter which god, but you realize very quickly that the people who feel that way (and, fortunately, most do at that time) are the ones you want to be with, because the others are extremely unpleasant b@stards (evil, if you will).

This is no argument for God's existence, I'm agnostic (if Hawkins, Dawkins and the Archbishop of Canterbury can't agree, who am I to say), but the concept of God has real value for many people.

I admire what Dawkins says and I like to think of myself as enlightened in the classical sense, but I wish he wasn't so bloody evangelical about it, surely religion has a Darwinian value for human society? In a future Utopia it's maybe not necessary, but we're not quite there yet.

So, I reckon I'm saying God is a human construct and has a human value, and probably will have for a fair while yet.

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I disagree. There can't be any value in believing something that isn't true. I found this very honest interview on You Tube. Bertrand Russell at his best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrxSkc68Ci0

That's your prerogative and, if you're lucky, you'll never have to find out.

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Originally Posted by Deadlegs

Er, not so quickly HHH. The M-Theory is still just a theory and still incomplete and widely challenged. I find the idea of God easier to grasp than the idea of an infinite number of universes etc. Don't forget there is a book to be sold at the bottom of this and the review in The Sunday Times wasn't that glowing.
One thing for sure and that's the level of debate is refreshing and interesting. Especially the camel and donkey conundrums.

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I don't believe I mentioned M-Theory at any point, neither A, B, C...Z or any other theory.

I was more alluding to the amazing fact that an imense amount of factors have to come together for any of us to have consciousness. For example; I am the result of one particular sperm winning a race on one particular occasion. If another one had won the day then my parents would still have had a child, but that child would not be "me". I would not exist. And that is a concept that I find quite amazing to comprehend.

Just because a concept is more easier to grasp, (gods vs. infinate no. of universes) doesn't make it more true either.

It is always fun to have the debate though. :-)

It's good that this thread is continuing. And despite lots of attempts to reach middle ground, it still comes back to the old lines of "yes but this is all made by God", or "yes but God is made up". I don't think any explanations of physics or apparent paradoxes in our understanding of physics will change this - interesting though it is.

Has anyone been swayed by this thread at all, from either camp? I'll be surprised if anyone has.

Which started me thinking, at what point in most people's lives do they gain their spiritual beliefs? And what would cause some people to change their minds about it?

For those atheists - what would it take for you to believe it God?
For those religious people - what would it take for you not to?

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Originally Posted by noel

It's good that this thread is continuing. And despite lots of attempts to reach middle ground, it still comes back to the old lines of "yes but this is all made by God", or "yes but God is made up". I don't think any explanations of physics or apparent paradoxes in our understanding of physics will change this - interesting though it is.

Has anyone been swayed by this thread at all, from either camp? I'll be surprised if anyone has.

Which started me thinking, at what point in most people's lives do they gain their spiritual beliefs? And what would cause some people to change their minds about it?

For those atheists - what would it take for you to believe it God?
For those religious people - what would it take for you not to?

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Religion is something people 'turn to' when they're in dire need, a bit of gentle talk and the promise of an afterlife gives hope to the needy. Threats of burning eternally in hell can land a good suckerpunch too, the church is pedalling a lot of easy answers.

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Originally Posted by mr brightside

Religion is something people 'turn to' when they're in dire need, a bit of gentle talk and the promise of an afterlife gives hope to the needy. Threats of burning eternally in hell can land a good suckerpunch too, the church is pedalling a lot of easy answers.

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You're sure that they don't just seem like easy answers because they're actually a popular caricature of Christian theology rather than the real thing?

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Originally Posted by Mandovark

You're sure that they don't just seem like easy answers because they're actually a popular caricature of Christian theology rather than the real thing?

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How would one tell the difference? Christianity is 'a broad church' so there are branches that adhere to most of the popular caricatures ;)

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Originally Posted by noel

How would one tell the difference? Christianity is 'a broad church' so there are branches that adhere to most of the popular caricatures ;)

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True enough. I just think that a big problem in a lot of current public debates about religion is that they tend not to go very far beneath the surface of the caricatures. We seem to be living at a time when the general level of public awareness of science has never been higher and that of theology has never been lower. I think that the Hawking article is a case in point: I wouldn't dream of even trying to challenge his arguments on physics, but his grasp of theologies of creation is shaky at best.

As a discipline, theology is every bit as complicated as science, but whereas a lot of non-specialists have enough of a scientific vocabulary to read at least part-way into scientific theories, far less people have even a basic grounding in theology. I think that one of the results of that is that it becomes too easy treat the caricatures as if there's nothing else out there. Some religious groups have a tendency to do the same with science (Creationist attitudes to evolution are a good example). The problem is that whenever the caricatures get brought into play, the arguments very quickly descend into pointless slanging matches in which both sides will simply claim that the other is missing the point - which they probably are!

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Originally Posted by Mandovark

True enough. I just think that a big problem in a lot of current public debates about religion is that they tend not to go very far beneath the surface of the caricatures. We seem to be living at a time when the general level of public awareness of science has never been higher and that of theology has never been lower. I think that the Hawking article is a case in point: I wouldn't dream of even trying to challenge his arguments on physics, but his grasp of theologies of creation is shaky at best.

As a discipline, theology is every bit as complicated as science, but whereas a lot of non-specialists have enough of a scientific vocabulary to read at least part-way into scientific theories, far less people have even a basic grounding in theology. I think that one of the results of that is that it becomes too easy treat the caricatures as if there's nothing else out there. Some religious groups have a tendency to do the same with science (Creationist attitudes to evolution are a good example). The problem is that whenever the caricatures get brought into play, the arguments very quickly descend into pointless slanging matches in which both sides will simply claim that the other is missing the point - which they probably are!

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Very good points Mandovark. I think it doesn't help that the press normally portray this as a battle between biblical literalists and atheist scientists. Whereas in reality, many scientists are religious and many churchgoers believe in evolution. Most people are somewhere in the middle but don't feel SO strongly about it that they want it to define their lives. I know this is only one of the arguments (creationism 'vs.' evolution), but it kind of sums it up for me.

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Originally Posted by noel

Very good points Mandovark. I think it doesn't help that the press normally portray this as a battle between biblical literalists and atheist scientists. Whereas in reality, many scientists are religious and many churchgoers believe in evolution. Most people are somewhere in the middle but don't feel SO strongly about it that they want it to define their lives. I know this is only one of the arguments (creationism 'vs.' evolution), but it kind of sums it up for me.

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Well said.

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Originally Posted by Mandovark

You're sure that they don't just seem like easy answers because they're actually a popular caricature of Christian theology rather than the real thing?

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I was just ranting so excuse me for not returning into the debate.

Who made hyenas laugh?

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Originally Posted by Grouse

Who made hyenas laugh?

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I think it happened when they went into the ark

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Originally Posted by Derby Tup

does God exist?

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No. Next?

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Originally Posted by Yorkshire Rob

No. Next?

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Why is it that when you ring a wrong number, there's always someone in?

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Originally Posted by noel

Why is it that when you ring a wrong number, there's always someone in?

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Sods law. Next ;)

Who made whales and snails and quails?

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Originally Posted by Grouse

Who made whales and snails and quails?

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Heston Bluminmental I think

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Originally Posted by Grouse

Who made whales and snails and quails?

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and why aren't they spelt whails

Or trains and boats and planes?

Sorry, thought I was on the Chain thread for a moment.

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Originally Posted by Fnstein

and why aren't they spelt whails

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Blame the Great English Vowel Shift in the 15th century.

Am very sceptical about god being in existence, just don't buy it. Was open minded until I went to Eritrea for 3 years, seeing the famine and way of life there, people believed in God but they had a very low life expectancy due to lack of quality food etc. that I couldn't really believe a 'God' would allow this to occur as this was not their fault. I believe that there is GOOD in the world as I believe that there is BAD, but I can't get my head around this idea of a figure creating everything.

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Originally Posted by Brotherton Lad

Blame the Great English Vowel Shift in the 15th century.

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not God then?;) Thanks for that pointer, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift , I think I get the gist :confused:

Tha's wilcum, 'appen.

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Originally Posted by biara

Am very sceptical about god being in existence, just don't buy it. Was open minded until I went to Eritrea for 3 years, seeing the famine and way of life there, people believed in God but they had a very low life expectancy due to lack of quality food etc. that I couldn't really believe a 'God' would allow this to occur as this was not their fault. I believe that there is GOOD in the world as I believe that there is BAD, but I can't get my head around this idea of a figure creating everything.

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Finally! I've come across someone who has visited Eritrea. I was there about 10 years ago and I've not come across a soul since then. I found it a truly amazing place. The drive from Massawa to Asmara must be my favourite road in the world.

Just stumbled over this thread, I grew up believing Eric Clapton was god, but then I discovered Frank Zappa but he died in 93. So I'm empty.

Incidentally Frank dedicated his autobiography to Stephen Hawking.

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Originally Posted by biara

Am very sceptical about god being in existence, just don't buy it. Was open minded until I went to Eritrea for 3 years, seeing the famine and way of life there, people believed in God but they had a very low life expectancy due to lack of quality food etc. that I couldn't really believe a 'God' would allow this to occur as this was not their fault. I believe that there is GOOD in the world as I believe that there is BAD, but I can't get my head around this idea of a figure creating everything.

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This is an example of what I said further back in the thread. It's your idea of what God would be if he were to exist that you don't believe in ie a God who loves us so much that he miracles away our problems. I'm not even sure some days whether I want God to be there but I can't just allow myself to say it's nonsense, not with all the amazing coincidences and all. Not sure about an after life but science tells us matter is not destroyed so something's eternal. Again... why?

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Originally Posted by Guick Dotto

not with all the amazing coincidences and all.

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Don't want to get in to this too much but just curious what you mean by the above statement?

Who made hogs and dogs and frogs?

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Originally Posted by Grouse

Who made hogs and dogs and frogs?

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There you go, and after that lot you'll be producing logs as well :D

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Originally Posted by Harry H Howgill

Absolutely. Existance is in no way banal. Its bloomin' wonderful. The amazing coincidences that have had to occur for all of us to be conscious of our existance are almost unbelieveable; not quite impossible, just very very improbable. It is amazing to live at a point in history where we now understand our existance to such an extent where we don't have to resort to supernatural sky gods for the answers.

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Ian Dark Peak please see above quote. Whereas HH finds the amazing coincidences etc a source of wonder and a reason not to believe in God I'm sort of inclined the other way but with the same reasoning.

I'm with Harry. When I stare at the night sky, I sense the numen in the awe and the wonder. But, for me, the numen is inside my head. It is all a result of amazing coincidences over billions of years, but it's not all that amazing because these are the coincidences that work (in this universe). The other coincidences have failed or died away, leaving the ones that best fit the laws of the universe. A sort of Darwinism of physics.

Who made bats and rats and cats?

Who made everything?

Who put the gold into the sunshine?

Sussed.