Where's that Hobson bloke? Perhaps he'd like to take his choice back!
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Where's that Hobson bloke? Perhaps he'd like to take his choice back!
Thanks Wheeze, I guess you are right, I am no stranger to the wranglings of online discussion and how easily things can go awry! Perhaps this is why I have been so careful and I think to some degree quite humble in my questioning and positioning. This is not easy. will slowly make my way through and hopefully learn a thing or two :)
Philosophically I can see the arguments for both leave and remain, and if I think about it, the inevitable outcome of this was always going to be divisive. Not just divisive in the short term, but for decades to come. I think you are right Noel in that there will be resentment either way. It makes me think of the most classic of power and control idioms "Divide and conquer" that is: To gain or maintain power by generating tension among others, epecially those less powerful, so that they cannot unite in opposition.
Anyone should be able to see, if they take a moment to truly reflect, that our government as it stands is an outdated and largely dysfunctional system (for us, the people) that is in it's death throes. It's certainly not democracy - that is rule by the people or their elected representatives. It's more of a corpocracy, by which I mean that the government is really the public relations department for large corporates and their objectives are based not on what the people need, but rather on the basis of passing legislature to facilitate the generation of maximum profits for the large corporates and transfer of our public assets into private ownership.
What better way to maintain the status quo, the rich being in power and the common people being subjugated and cowed, than to shift the focus from a dying political system to a complete division of thought in the populace.
Instead of everyone looking at government and thinking what the hell are we doing here, this is broken, we need a new system - which is what I actually believe we need, we're all arguing amongst ourselves over how our government should resolve this absurd situation. If it wasn't so serious it would be hilarious.
I would like to see the abolition of government parties and the introduction of a system that was truly altruistic where publicly appointed representatives are assigned to each of the governance domains according to their ability, skills, knowledge etc. The government should be made up of the greatest minds in society who work together to make things better for everyone, not just the large corporates. So, for example, the education secretary should be someone who cares deeply about making the education system as good as it possibly can be, regardless of political persuasion. The question should be, how can we educate our young people to the highest standards. That's it. Not which political party is in power. It just seems like distraction tactics.
To this end it makes little difference if we leave or not, I guess we just have to go with it now as the decision has already been made, but I do look forward to the day when we can collectively overcome these side show distractions and get to the real issues at hand like healthcare, energy, pollution, education, transport, etc. all of which I see being handed over without so much as a 'by your leave' to private concerns.
Example: We do not have a public transport system any more, we have a private transport system who's primary objective is shareholder profits, not about getting people inexpensively and safely from a to b. I personally think the public transport system should be free at point of use and paid for by personal transport taxation (I might've to hide under a chair for this one! ;) ).
The same thing is happening to all our other public services, energy has already gone private and look at that (~25,000 older people die needlessly every year because they cant keep warm - one person over 65 every 7 minutes - see reports from AgeUK) - this is nothing short of premeditated mass murder by the energy companies yet they remain unprosecuted and free to make massive profits based on death and suffering.
The healthcare system is next in line and I am terrified that it is going to end up exactly the same as it is in the US where if you don't have money/insurance you will be left to suffer on the pavement outside the hospital.
This in itself should be a huge wakeup call - this is what should be compelling us to forget our differences unite and fight against the outright theft and sale of our public property.
Sorry, another good wibble there... again just thoughts!!
Staggers tip.
On the day we leave invest in a FTSE tracker.
The market will dip big time and soon after recovering to well above where it was.
Easy money 🇬🇧💷🏴
Yes, knowledge usually increases with time, and often this means we change our minds there and then - otherwise we would not change our minds in time, and the gap between knowledge and reaction would be too long to be useful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
The main new knowledge re Brexit is how little we know - we are starting to know what we don't know.
So some want to re ask the question now, some don't - who is in the majority? We just ask.
Bollox to Brexit!
If you are importing stuff, processing and re-exporting, you are neutralising the effects of the currency movements.Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerMouse
eg. Your parts might go up 10%, but your selling price to the overseas buyer has reduced 10%.
What you need to consider is that now the £ has dropped, you can perhaps get a higher £ price for what you sell but to someone in the US that could still be a lower $ price.
I've just increased a small part I sell in volume from £4.25 to £4.38, but to my regulars overseas, that part is still cheaper than it was 3 years ago.
and this is quite a key point. We can get rid oft hem and elect another one if they don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerMouse
That's key WP. Some time ago I recounted the story of the recalcitrant commissioner who could have destroyed MRI. We couldn't vote him out but after 10 years of international lobbying an interim solution was reached. The cost and effort of the international community totally outweighed any supposed benefits he was claiming.
Thanks Witton Park.
Yes, I can see how that would work, I don't sell to anyone in the US.
Also I am not VAT registered, which does make a difference, as I mentioned previously, it's not really a proper business. I do it because I enjoy it very much and it makes me feel good that I am making musical instruments for people to make music with, it's not really a profit driven venture. It does pay my way here and there, when I am not working on web projects, just about!
Hopefully, as you say the prices will all kinda work out okay, guess we will just have to wait and see hey :)
If you aren't VAT registered I think that is your biggest issue. I think you need to look in to it urgently along with registering for an EORI or you might not be able to import or export.Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerMouse
Tony Benn used to advocate for this. And not when he was in front-line politics. I think that gives an idea of how un-mainstream this view is.Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerMouse
I think some degree of subsidisation to transport can be argued for - especially for remote communities like the Western Isles.
It is being tried: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/...transport-freeQuote:
Originally Posted by noel
You know, I think the EU negotiators are missing a trick. They desperately do not want UK to leave and so have made the conditions for leaving impossible to accept. This impasse could be avoided if, instead, they took a stance of negotiating an offer to remain. There is precedent for this. The European Council responded to a Danish referendum result of 50.7% rejecting the Treaty of Maastricht by offering 4 placatory exceptions resulting in a 56.7% acceptance at a second referendum (note the amazing similarity of the split to our own referendum). What if, now, EU said "We totally accept your vote to leave but if you stay, you will get X,Y and Z"? Instead of this bull headed intransigence to the Withdrawal agreement.
This is the withdrawal agreement that the EU negotiated with the UK, taking into account the red lines of the UK's leader. So it's not "they" it's "we" who have made the conditions.
To me it sounds more like lack of agreement on our side than intransigence on theirs. They might be thinking: we did all we can but the UK clearly want to leave whatever.
I actually personally believe that public transport is a mess.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
If a Government wants to encourage us out of cars, on to PT then it surely needs to be in more control of the services.
I've often had cheaper options to fly to London than train. That has to be wrong.
But I know a train driver and a bus worker and they both warn me against it. So I am a little torn, hence my suggestion on rail is to take the next 2-3 franchises back in to public ownership and see how they compare.
By the way, I think the Western Isles, Orkney and Shetland have subsidies. I work with a few up there and some have told me they get cheaper ferry crossings and flights out and back.
Consider that earlier this year the only vote for a positive arrangement to leave was the so-called Brady amendment.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
It was never put to the EU.
Consider that back in 2018, Tusk offered a comprehensive FTA similar to Canada and Mrs May came up with Chequers which had the Facilitated Customs Arrangement.
It was a complete dog's breakfast and would have been impossible.
So I agree our Govt was more complicit in where we are now.
Mrs May should never have agreed to the 2017 December protocol. It fist introduced the idea of NI being treated different and was then flatly rejected by the DUP.
Noel, both sides had their red lines. The impasse comes from both sides locked in a manner from which there is no escape. Sometimes, to unlock something one competitor needs to make an unexpected move or change of pressure. BJ is clearly trying this with the end game of ensuring leave. What if EU tried a similar tactic with the endgame of Stay?
Oh thank you, this is really useful, I had no idea about the EORI stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
This does kinda highlight my concerns though. I will try and explain, bear with me...
I am sure that most proper businesses have the resources, capital, staff time, knowledge and skills to do these things and take them all in their stride. My position is that this part of my working life is more like a mini cottage industry or a side line. It's just me, I don't earn very much from doing it. It's perhaps helpful to think of it more as a hobby and only really works because of the minimal requirements (as they stand now) for me to operate on a European basis. For me, going VAT registered means more work that I neither know how to do or particularly want to do and I wouldn't just have to do it, I would need learn how to do it first.
I can't really separate this out from the rest of my work either, unless I go down the Limited Company route and set up separate companies for each of the pats of my working life perhaps. Relationships I have with long standing customers would also have to change. Typically being VAT registered for web development work at the amount I do annually doesn't really make sense as the running costs are so low. That is, it's not really based on inputs and outputs where VAT paid kinda balances out with VAT charged, I literally just need a computer and an internet connection, the customer pays for the third party services like hosting, domain names, software etc. and they just pay me for my time.
I hope I am making some kind of sense and I don't sound negative or resistant to change, I am actually very open to it where it makes sense; you should see what I have had to do over the last year or so to comply with GDPR - it was a ton of work I didn't get paid for, months spent sorting stuff out; but it feels really good to be on the other side of it and to be able to say to my customers that I comply to a very high degree and that will continue indefinitely now with very little effort. Lots of work upfront, but really rewarding and empowering in the long term.
That's not to say I won't go VAT registered, just that it's not that simple or easily achievable - for me - I need to be super careful I don't make a rod for my own back and turn something fundamentally enjoyable and relaxing, that I do to earn a little extra cash when not working on web programming projects, into a big headache where I spend more time accounting and complying with regulation than doing the thing I love.
More generally, I wonder how many other micro/cottage industries will face similar issues? I think the world is a richer place for this creative diversity, I believe individuals and small groups who work like this should be encouraged and supported at every level, there should be policies in place to help people do this kind of thing rather than commuting miles to some crap job every day.
I believe one of the main attractions of Hebden Bridge is that it is full of independent shops selling locally made products, people like it because the town centre does not look like the predominant facsimile town centres in the country. Care should be taken not to legislate these small businesses out of the market, well, unless you actually want exactly the same shops in every town centre - then you're good ;)
I really appreciate you taking the time to read my posts and for your input - it is helpful and I thank you :)
Wow!! I didn't know about this and it is absolutely fantastic to read this article - seriously - you just made my day - year even!! Thank you for sharing, I am so happy to read this. Amazing that 75% of people voted for it and other countries going the same way too - this is the future - I hope :)Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonykay
What a fantastic way to liberate your people, what better way to help create a happy workforce that can get to work on time? What a brilliant way to fight the insane levels of fossil fuel transport pollution. And all the aggressive, militant, bullying, restrictive side of public transport is taken away or significantly reduced; less ticket inspections, barriers, fines, ticket police, prosecutions, etc. the train staff can stop being revenue collectors and get back to concentrating on an actual job that involves things like helping transport users to plan their routes, manage their luggage safely, making sure the transport is used safely and you know - even run on time, heck, even just passing the time of day and being nice to people - because why not?
I have to say despite everything many public transport employees still do this important part of their jobs with a smile and full credit to them, but a lot don't and are utterly miserable encounters.
There is hope!!
Heh, someone I sent that article about the free transport to pointed out the second section of the article which I missed - apparently people stopped walking places and started using the transport system instead - doh!
Obviously this is only an impression too, who's to say that because of the time saved the same people didn't go swimming instead of having to walk somewhere for example i.e. still got plenty of exercise.
Undoubtably there will always be some kind of failure, nothing is perfect, but this did make me laugh at the unforeseen consequences!
I would like to think that just because the transport system was free that I wouldn't stop walking or cycling to places but I guess it depends on the mindset of each individual.
If local public transport here in Blackburn was free, which is bus based, I still wouldn't use it. It isn't much cop whatever the price as the busses tend to go places I don't want to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerMouse
I might use the local train service. I have regular trips to Burnley and I have Cheery Tree station 2-3 minutes walk away.
But even then, my wife has gone to Burnley to watch the football on a weeknight on the train, returned to Burnley Central after the match to find no trains - they've been cancelled, and I had to go and pick her up.
The quality of the service, frequency, reliability and the destination options are more important than free, as long as the price is affordable.
Anyway, this is a Brexit thread, so if this is up for further discussion, perhaps open a public transport thread.
So the government was defeated by something like the same margin as the original Brexit vote so presumably this result should be ignored.
If you look at social media, it seems the most notable thing that happened today was Jacob Rhys-Mogg reclining on the front bench - he doesn't do himself any favours at times.
Some other minor footnotes that weren't as photogenic: another defection from the conservatives mean they no longer have an overall majority, government defeated again, possible election...
JRM has been used to sitting far left and used to lean up in the corner half-turned like that in the quiet, later sittings and talk with fellow MPs sat behind him.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
It doesn't look good on the front bench.
The defection was always going to happen. Lee in particular has been threatening for a while. He set up a campaign for a 2nd referendum himself.
As they've removed the whip from those that voted against, they are now around 23 short of a Commons majority.
Interesting times.
As has been said elsewhere, to think it was felt that Theresa May was out of her depth ....
The party system is really being tested here.
The Tories under May failed.
A leadership contest saw 92% of MPs vote for a future leader that was going to be leaving on or around 31/10 deal or no deal.
In the final 5, Rory Stewart only gained 9% and the other 4 all were committed to leave promptly even if they would not 100% commit to that 31/10 date.
The membership fully supported it.
On Tuesday 6.7% of the Tory MPs (21 of 310, not counting Lee) who went against that party process and sided with the opposition.
Much has been said of the removal of the whip, that in the past others have defied the whip and not had it removed.
However, these 21 didn't vote against a Govt bill. They voted with an opposition bill, aimed at removing the power of their own Govt and in some cases actually helped to construct the bill and/or put their name to it.
In effect, those 21 joined the opposition.
But it won't end here.
The LibDems have had non-MP resignations over the admission of Philip Lee. Here is a Tory MP who opposed some of the Liberal policies of the Coalition.
There was tension when they accepted Umuna who has a string of derogatory tweets and statements about them such as "Vince Cable talks about increasing the minimum wage, but you can’t trust a word the Lib Dems say."
That they are happy to provide a home for any disaffected Labour or Tory Mps certainly isn't unifying them.
Then we have Labour, who have managed to duck below the radar on Brexit in recent months.
When we inevitably get a General Election their likely Brexit Policy will be:
1. Renegotiate a deal with EU.
2. 2nd referendum where they will campaign against the deal they have negotiated to revoke and Remain.
(work that one out if you can :D)
Quite how a General Election campaign will go on that position in areas like Sunderland, Wakefield and Wigan I do not know.
and then we even have the SNP who do appear to be the only ones without an issue. The problem is, even their policy is a bit barking.
They will use every ounce of energy they can to keep the UK in the EU, and then use every ounce of energy to take Scotland out of the UK (and the EU) and then apply to rejoin the EU.
As recent as 2017 at the General Election we saw the Tories and Labour take 82% of the vote.
I can actually see a scenario where they fail to reach 50% between them.
I absolutely love this one. Imagine their pitch, vote for us, we're going to renegotiate a new deal with the EU. Then we're going to ask you to vote against it. Why? Well it's rubbish and we should know, we negotiated it!Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
You seem to have summed up what actually did happen with Dominic Raab. And he's one of the ones who's still in the cabinet!Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
I'm sorry Noel, but you are going to have to help me out with this one.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
He's lost me too.
Negotiating a deal with the EU then asking his colleagues to vote against it saying it's rubbish.
No he didn't, he resigned. He was undermined by May and Robbins so the deal wasn't his.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
I think you do actually know that.
I think he does as well, but here's the Raab resignation letter to May.Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
Dear Prime Minister,
It has been an honour to serve in your government as Justice Minister, Housing Minister and Brexit Secretary.
I regret to say that, following the Cabinet meeting yesterday on the Brexit deal. I must resign. I understand why you have chosen to pursue the deal with the EU on the terms proposed, and I respect the different views held in good faith by all of our colleagues.
For my part, I cannot support the proposed deal for two reasons. First I believe that the regulatory regime proposed for Northern Ireland presents a very real threat to the integrity of the United Kingdom.
Second, I cannot support an indefinite backstop arrangement, where the EU holds a veto over our ability to exit. The terms of the backstop amount to a hybrid of the EU Customs Union and Single Market obligations. No democratic nation has ever signed up to be bound by such an extensive regime, imposed externally without any democratic control over the laws to be applied, nor the ability to decide to exit the arrangement. That arrangement is now also taken as the starting point for negotiating the Future Economic Partnership. If we accept that, it will severely prejudice the second phase of negotiations against the UK.
Above all, I cannot reconcile the terms of the proposed deal with the promises we made to the country in our manifesto at the last election. This is, at its heart, a matter of public trust.
I appreciate that you disagree with my judgment on these issues. I have weighed very carefully the alternative courses of action which the government could take, on which I have previously advised. Ultimately, you deserve a Brexit Secretary who can make the case for the deal you are pursuing with conviction. I am only sorry, in good conscience, that I cannot.
My respect for you and the fortitude you have shown in difficult times, remains undimmed.
So if Raab had been happy with it, he wouldn't have felt compelled to resign so that he could then vote against the deal he was in charge of negotiating.
I suggest that Corbyn is in a similar position. If he's happy with a renegotiated deal, he'll ask people to support it.
Actually you are wrong Noel.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
If Raab had been happy with the deal he would have voted for it.
If Labour negotiate a deal, they are saying they will STILL recommend Remain. It's bonkers.
The two things are quite different.Quote:
Originally Posted by noel
The deal that was agreed by the Government with the EU was not negotiated by Raab. He was supplanted by May and Robbins, who agreed to things that Raab couldn't. Hence Raab resigned.
The Labour position appears to be that they will negotiate and agree a deal with the EU. They will then hold a referendum on the agreement they have reached with the EU but then campaign against it. You don't think that's bizarre?
Raab's position would only be the same as that of Labour if last year he had not resigned but signed off on the agreement with the EU and then subsequently campaigned against it. But that's not what happened.
I've been following wit interest and while I am not taking any sides here and remain in a position of uncertainty and confusion:Quote:
Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever
This sounds like Labour wants a particular outcome (i.e. to remain in the EU) but are hedging their bets so that in the event that a referendum still means leaving the EU that at least they have a deal they can live with.
Gosh, that's a tumbling sentence, hope I made myself clear :)
Also, if the deal is made in advance, at least this time the referendum would be on an actual thing instead of vague nebulosity and an overabundance of BS!
I've watched quite a bit here.
Even on Politics Live now with Andrew Neil we have a Labour MP and Jo Swinson LibDem leader and it's clear they are playing politics.
The Labour MP indicated she would NOW support the Withdrawal Agreement if it was brought back for the 4th time having voted against it three times "for the right reasons".
Rather strange as her party policy is currently to renegotiate it - something at the same time they say is not possible n:confused:
Swinson - I will not support a GE until we have this Act in place.
Neil - so on Monday will you support a GE when you have this in place?
Jo Swinson - no as we cannot be sure of the Election date.
Neil - so if you can get a lock of 15th October on a GE you will support a GE.
Swinson - No
There's a reason of course.
Since Johnson won the leadership the polls have changed. There is every chance that he would still be PM after an Oct 15th General Election and with a majority and/or with some Brexit Party MPs.
Labour want to try and damage him - and if they can cause an extension, they believe it will harm Johnson and they may be right.
What they fail to see is how it will also hit them, especially away from London and the metropolitan boroughs.
They'll (Labour back-bench and remainer types, SNP. LibDem) try and hang on until after conference season, but I suspect Corbyn might bite.
I think it's more a rather confused attempt to reconcile the different Brexit positions in their party. Most of the Labour party MP's and members want to Remain. But a minority like Corbyn would prefer to Leave. They are also mindful that they have a lot of constituencies where a majority voted to Leave. Constructive ambiguity worked rather well for Labour in 2017 but it will be difficult to repeat the trick this time.Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerMouse
Okies, I see, thank you!
I don't have anything else to add to this at this time and will continue to follow - keep up the discussions - it's good :)