All my Borrowdale photo's are now online http://www.fellrunner.net links are off the photo of Nickie & Jackie two Albums out & back.
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All my Borrowdale photo's are now online http://www.fellrunner.net links are off the photo of Nickie & Jackie two Albums out & back.
Great photos Paul, as usual!Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul dobson
Yes, good photos, but why do I look so much slower than I felt.
For once I have been pictured obviously running instead of the usual pics where I am dragging my tired ***e :thumbup::DQuote:
Originally Posted by Deadlegs
so short of wading through 213 pages of this thread, would anyone care to give me a summary of Borrowdale as compared to Duddon and TWA please? (the only other Lakeland AL's I've done). I'm assuming less runnable than Duddon with more broken ground and scree. How do times compare? what about route finding/route choice?
Borrowdale is a lot harder, mainly as most of the climbing is in the second half of the race, with most of the distance being done in the run out from Bessy Boot to Esk Hause. As you say Borrowdale is a lot rougher underfoot and there is much less of the good running that is found in TWA and Duddon. My times for all three races are very similar.
Personally I don't find navigating around Borrowdale to be much of a problem, though it can be tricky finding the scree run off Scafell Pike in clag, but usually there are plenty of people around. People do seem to get lost in thick clag between Green Gable and Honister, but if in doubt follow the BG route if you know it. There are many opinions as to which is the best route here for Borrowdale and I honestly couldn't tell you which it is. It probably all depends on how knackered you are and what sort of a runner you are. There are also a variety of options off Dale Head, but you will know this from TWA.
......would anyone care to give me a summary of Borrowdale.....
Here's your summary ES:
17m
6500ft
Start Rosthwaite, then the following CP's:
Bessy Boot (grass)
Esk Hause (grass)
Scafell Pike (rock)
Gt Gable (rock)
Honister pass (grass)
Dale Head (grass)
Finish Rosthwiate..........then Beer !
Entries opened over a week ago so you'd best be sharp ~ it fills up quickly.
I have my entry - hence the question. Thanks though, particularly NMNC, very useful.
Not forgetting the infamous (since last year's incident) Corridor Route (grass and rock with some big drop-offs to your left) between Scafell Pike and Great Gable.Quote:
Originally Posted by mapper
Just arrived in a very busy Keswick, as expected on a summer Friday evening. Also a Christian and scout convention going on this weekend increasing the crowd.
Weather forecast looking promising, it's a gorgeous day today. Just heading out for a gentle run up to Walla Crag and perhaps Bleaberry Fell to loosen up the legs.
Good luck to everyone tomorrow.
What a fantastic day out yesterday.
Must admit I had my doubts about Borrowdale, not sure why, maybe just the popularity of it, but for some reason it didn't really appeal to me in the same way as Wasdale, Buttermere, Peris....
But I have to eat my words, it's a new favourite race of mine, it's pretty perfect, has everything, and the distance is just right that it can be raced from the start (for the good runners anyway)...
Won't say too much more, there's enough written about this race already, but was hoping for under 5 hours and managed 4:50.... Was on for a possible 4:30 but hit the wall going up Dale Head then had 3 massive bouts of cramp between there and the finish, it was a sorry trudge along the valley floor back to the finish.
Well done. It's also much more difficult than the distance alone would suggest. I think because for an average runner it's still a race rather than a challenge.
Well done - its always good when a race exceeds your expectations and Borrowdale is one of the best IMHO, but as you have now realised, it is not to be underestimated under race conditions. It has long been one of my favourite day's out in the Lakes but I'd never felt fit enough to give the race a go until last year. However, the initial ascents followed by the long slog across Glaramara, Esk Hause etc. take far more out of you than you'd expect. Having recce'd it in a comfortable 4.5 hours or so, I went at it expecting to hit nearer 4. However, cramp set in at the bottom of the Scafell Pike scree and by the time I hit Gable, I could have laid down by the side of the path and called it a day! No chance of that though, so having made honister with 10 minutes to spare, I then went into preservation mode knowing that I should at least finish and came back into Rosthwaite in a shade over 5 hours. I swore never again, but as long as I shake off this year's injury, I'm planning to have another crack at it next year (unless Mrs S gets wind of it!)Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
I think this was my 5th Borrowdale and apart from Buttermere it's the only one of the properly long A races in the Lakes that I've done. It tends to end up as a bit of a 'centrepiece' for my year's racing, but one I always approach with some trepidation....the fear of going too fast too early and reaching Esk Hause with very little left in the tank, the fear of not making enough of the runnable bits because I'm holding back, worried about Gable and Dale Head.....if it's claggy, also the fear of getting lost, which I managed temporarily a couple of years ago between Bessy Boot and Esk Hause, despite having been in and around a dozen or so runners only moments before the mist settled in.
Despite all of the above it's a highlight of the year and as others have said has a bit of everything. I came to it this year having done about half the training I'd hoped to and with a wonky knee and had the odd experience of feeling like I wasn't going very quickly at all, while at the same time feeling like I was my limits for most of it. The climb up Gable was a particularly character building half hour (yes, I know) and the less said about Dale Head the better, but I managed to stumble home in just over 4.30, which if modest by most standards, is only 15 mins slower than my fastest time. I'm aready thinking about what I can do to be faster next year.
Big thanks to all involved in putting on such a great race and to the kind gentleman who offered me his place as a substitute when I missed the entry window.
I really love this race, what route! Its a tough one and I used it as a bit of a benchmark for future running. I'm only just getting back to proper fitness after my reactive arthritis in my knee last year. Twelve weeks of not being able to walk properly (let alone run) was a nightmare but I've done Anni Waltz, Three Peaks and Kentmere Horseshoe since. I plodded around all of them (only just made cut offs on 3ps!) which has been humbling but I did Borrowdale in 5.11 this year, only 3 mins slower than when I ran it in 2012 so I'm chuffed with that. It felt a lot harder but now I have something to work on and its given me a confidence boost.
Entry Form in the post for Borrowdale.
It'll be first time for me so really looking forward to it. Been wanting to have a go at it these last few years but never managed it what with work commitments, injuries, not fit enough, etc.
So hopefully I'll get a place and have a grand few days up in the Lakes in early August.
An interesting day out at Borrowdale today. As Scoffer explained on the start line, they were under considerable pressure to either cancel or shorten, due to the worrying weather forecast. Thankfully a route was found which allowed a race to go ahead, and i think everyone really appreciated this.
The route then... A reverse of the usual final descent, climbing up through Rigg Beck Slate Workings, bearing right at the top to the summit of High Spy. From there a down and up to Dale Head. Down to Honister. Then up/across to the top of Rigg Beck Workings again, and down the usual final descent.
Ricky Lightfoot took the honours in around 1hr16, with Carl Bell close behind, Rob Jebb a couple of minutes back in 3rd. Sharon Taylor i believe won the women's race.
As to my own race, i climbed strongly and descended poorly, which was magnified by the slippery conditions. Spent most of the race in a battle around 30-35th place, but dropped 2-3 minutes (and about 10 places) on the final descent, to finish 46th in 1hr37. Also allowing Tindersticks to pass me on that descent and gain revenge for the Old Crown Round.
Splits tell the story... my climbing splits were in the 30's, but the two main descents (down to Honister, and back down to the valley) were in the 70's.
Didn't stick around for prize-giving due to the awful weather, and i was soaked through, but seemed the usual jolly post-race atmosphere afterwards.
Today marked my 100th fell race. Hopefully by the time 200 comes round i'm still learning and improving.
Pete
Well done - it was jolly slippery out there today, and wet slate must be one of the most slippery surfaces in the known universe - alongside wet mouldy wood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
Yes it was slippery... but not to make excuses for myself... as Tindersticks considerately pointed out after we had finished, my descending technique requires working on, and if i can start to make improvements there i'd see a rapid improvement in my finishing positions.
Where does Borrowdale rank in the list of hardcore fell races?
Asking for a friend
TIA
Of the lakes ALs, I'd rank it 4th behind Wasdale, Ennerdale and the Darren Holloway Memorial (Buttermere Horseshoe). TWA is probably in the same ballpark but there's a lot of good running on that and the Borrowdale certainly trumps it on the technical terrain and nav etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo Caps
Awesome, thanks PeteS, appreciate it.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
Actually, while we're on the subject...
from what I've been told, cos I haven't done it myself yet, I would have put Great Lakes somewhere in the top 3...
wouldn't you agree?
I'd broadly agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
I think you could argue that Old Crown Round is also harder.... certainly some more good running, but also some really tough sections, very remote, and as long as Ennerdale.
Also Peris and Welsh 1000 are considerably tougher.
Yes most probably and why I deliberately stated Lakes ALs. You could argue the case for a few more outside of Cumbria but I've not done any so couldn't really comment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
I would probably put it 5th or 6th. Climb is about the same as Borrowdale but (straight line) distance shorter. The terrain is tough on both but a lot of Great Lakes is pathless and plenty of opportunity for walkabout on a bad day so that probably takes it up a notch. Duddon Valley is also going to be up there I guess?Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo Caps
One starter is to look at the record times. I used to say "look at Billy Bland's times" but he (obviously) never did the newer races.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
Well here goes...Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
Of the ones mentioned so far in order of record time:
Darren Holloway 3:45
Wasdale 3:25
Ennerdale 3:20
Old crown round 3:19
Duddon 2:42
TWA 2:37:38
Great Lakes 2:37:35
Borrowdale 2:34
Obviously Billy, Kenny Stuart etc didn't do them all but most the records on the older races still stand from that golden era so you can argue this isn't a true comparison.
Now add Peris (3:33) and Welsh 1000s (3:51) into the mix and they would both be in the top 3.
And of course time is only one measure by which to gauge which is hardest. I'm sure the more mathematically minded of forumites could come up with some way of levelling this out based on distance, ascent and factors for terrain etc.
Anyway the hardest for me always seems to be the last one these days!
I think terrain is key. One can always follow someone who knows the best route (up and down) but the ability to run fast over jagged rocks is a gift from God.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
And one I don't possess given the number of scars and broken bones I have accumulated over the years!Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
I still have a scar on the palm of my hand from the Scafell Pike descent and another on my ankle from stonefall on the original Bessyboot climb....Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
I always rated Borrowdale as a step up from Langdale, a notch below Wasdale or Ennerdale.
I was hoping to celebrate my impending 65th birthday by running the 50th after celebrating my imminent 40th by doing the 25th. I still have the T Shirt and was going to wear it. Alas COVID has delayed the 50th, not sure just when that will happen now or if I can still beat the Honister cut off.
The mind is a funny thing. I used to link Three Shires and Langdale in my mind as similar sort of races.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark G
I loved Three Shires, had some pleasing races and did it 15 times. I always hated Langdale, I never felt I had raced really well in my 9 races and after I tore my knee open on the crinkles I lost all my confidence for racing over jagged rocks and never ran it again.
But, say, Borrowdale was always fine and I could win prizes!
I still have a scar on my shin from descending Lliwedd on the Peris race at a speed that far outmatched my ability over that difficulty of terrain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark G
Every year i'd end up bloody from that descent.... until last time i did it, i thought i was going to get home in one piece, then i slipped on the stile on the top of Moel Cynghorion and ended up losing another couple of pints!
With the exception of a broken finger on my right hand, I generally land on my left side which is now liberally strewn with scars from my knee to hand, arm and shoulder. Not that I should be proud of such a thing but my physio has pronounced me one of her most 'decorated' clients. :)
I'm beginning to feel like a complete fraud, calling myself a fell runner when I have no broken bones, and the only scars I have are from brambles encountered on my local footpaths.
I could not thank you chaps enough for all the inside knowledge, far more than I ever anticipated.
I now have some many more races in my bucket list, I don't think I have enough years to complete them in, ahahahaha!
Also, I look forward to so many more injuries....NOT!
Spot on. Some run as if they are just jumping over pillows and cushions, not skin and bone threatening rocks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
2009 was the worst.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
Attachment 8922
Obviously from my perspective I don't see this much but when on an out and back course I have seen some absolute marvels of fell running of which, even in my prime, I could only dream of. There are those of us who run on the fells and a chosen few who seem to be at one with them, floating over life threatening terrain with ease. Seldom am I more impressedQuote:
Originally Posted by Mike T
You're welcome. Hopefully you won't pick up any injuries but don't say we didn't warn you!Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo Caps