sounds a bit like democracy in action, doesn't it?Quote:
And that is why the house did not want it to vote.
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sounds a bit like democracy in action, doesn't it?Quote:
And that is why the house did not want it to vote.
I don't need to cry. Despite the disadvantage we still won ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
and here we go again.Quote:
Troops entering someone elses rhineland soon then.These European empires never learn.
oppinion passed off as fact.Quote:
The benn act was therefore not legitimate
Wasn't proroguing parliment unlawful?
Wouldn't the PM rather be dead in a ditch by now?
presumably, then, the purpose of the lie (which you have just accepted as such) was to convince the "undecided".Quote:
Brexiters decided to leave long before any statements on buses
she said "We will do all this in the knowledge that with the departure of Great Britain, a potential competitor will of course emerge for us. That is to say, in addition to China and the United States of America, there will be Great Britain as well".Quote:
Merkel supports brexit
that's a statement of the obvious, not a statement of support for Brexit.
They reported the actual words of the actual president.Quote:
And they even used a US president to state that the UK would be at the back of the queue in any trade negotiations. The reality is that we will be right at the front.
Now there's a different president things might have changed.
Or they might not have done. Who knows? Trump doesn't even know.
EU budget contribution?Quote:
So Just because you dont research things..
Supposed stipend paid to UK judges by ECJ?
The main issue I find with Oracles posts are his evocations of Europe / Germany as aggressors which do little to endear the reader to any of his points valid or not. The EU are not the enemy, rather they are our trading partners, friends and rivals (in a positive way)
I voted remain and would do again because we have a special relationship both in terms of treaties and that of close neighbours. Britain’s position as an adult in international diplomacy has been eroded which will be a legacy that lives on for a long time.
@Dave M - a good list of points of where opinions are portrayed as fact.
he directly compared them to the Nazis.Quote:
his evocations of Europe / Germany as aggressors
Then denied it.
Then was found out.
So he went away for a while.
I did not use the word nazi once.
You used that comparison. I neither said it nor believe it.
I used the phrase fourth reich to draw analogies with the european love of despotic empire building. Some of the analogies are frightening. For example: The amount of money sucked back to germany from all other countries, provable with Target 2, the attempt to permanent annexe of northern ireland under their rule with partial consent (the backstop) has awful parallels with Austria 38. Part of the austrian population welcomed them in.
The disdain for sovereignty of other lands . The parallels of verhofstadts "death of a nation state" speech with states becoming a Vichy administration.
Their new army that their chief diplomat says should "assert itself on the world stage" That is frightening.
We are well out.
No they are not using guns. They use the suffering of old people in greece as their weapon instead. They turn off the banks if you argue with them. They will do the same to poland, if they continue to argue about judicial policy or the hungarian states if they argue about migrants.. The ECB is their weapon of mass destruction. That was the reason for the euro. A weapon of control from which you cannot escape.
No they are not antisemitic. Look in Stollys labour party for that. But they are still fascist in the sense of an authoritarian rule that tolerates no dissent.
I do not deny that comparison. Because every part of it is true.
We joined a trading mutual benefit club. It became a despotic empire. They left us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
no, you used the neo Nazi trope "Fouth Reich".Quote:
I did not use the word nazi once.
And now you're directly comparing the EU withand saying that they are fascist.Quote:
Austria 38
You really don't know when to stop, do you?
Now read exactly what I wrote above, and justified above.
The parallels are frightening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
and here's what I said in reply to exactly the same point, not that long ago:
and editing posts doesn't make you look clever. It makes you look sad.Quote:
you’ve settled on the word “fascist” to describe the EU.....You seem to think that calling people fascist is bad, but calling organisations it is fine. Because to you, that’s somehow logical. You seem to think that any organisation which is “Authoritarian, undemocratic, dictatorships intolerant of any dissent” is fascist. And then accuse people of using the word indiscriminately. Well, here’s another thing, fascism is associated with extreme nationalism. So, I’m wondering, how can an umbrella organisation for 28 separate states somehow be nationalistic? I’ll leave aside the elected membership and fixed term presidency, as this is clearly authoritarian and undemocratic.
Extreme nationalism is not necessarily part of fascism. Check the multiple definitions. I ensured I explained what I meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
The contempt of Eu for sovereignty is a disgrace. “ death of a nation state” quote Verhofstadt,
The fact you accept annexation of Northern Ireland shows you are not understanding realities.
The eu had temerity to demand rights to live in Switzerland for Eu citizens just to trade. How dare they.
They destroy objectors financially.
Eu can only end badly. Sooner the better.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ent-propagandaQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
http://www.civitas.org.uk/content/fi...orporation.pdf
https://iea.org.uk/media/iea-analysi...al-programmes/
You talk about quality of posting and then come up with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
Looks like you're having a bit of a meltdown. I'd take a bit of timeout if I were you.
democracy trashed in Greece.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
An Italian PM was forced out and replaced by an EU ex Commissioner.
The EU is threatening Governments such as Poland and Hungary.
The EU Parliament refused this week to debate the problems in Catalonia.
There seems to be an organised news blackout on the troubles in France.
At times it feels like it used to feel when I was in China. You arrived in Hong Kong and then caught up with the news that was filtered on the mainland.
Now you see things on social media and wonder whether it is true and the BBC or Sky News aren't covering it.
Something doesn't seem right, however you dress things up.
"Aggressor" doesn't have to mean lining up troops on a border.Quote:
Originally Posted by RichA
France illegally subsidising Air France back in the 90s, as found by the ECJ following a long and expensive action taken by BA and Lufthansa which was retrospectively signed off after the judgement by the Commission?
Footwear anti-dumping duty illegally applied (ECJ Judgement following test action by Clarks and Puma) and still being applied, not refunded. If they refunded the two winning litigants, there are several hundred more lining up behind that they'd also have to compensate running in to billions.
Two cases that I had direct interest in and shaped my opinions of the EU institutions.
I personally wouldn't use the word aggressor. I'd use words like corrupt, even frightening, when an organisation has the power to force through it's desired outcome EVEN when the court who's jurisdiction it operates under have found against.
Imagine if the UK Govt had lost at the Supreme Court, then quickly signed off a legal instrument to retrospectively allow them to stay prorogued.
I think such power would concern many.
And that's before we even consider some of the corporate problems such as the intentional fiddling of emissions figures to seek to gain a commercial advantage over your competitors.
It seems to have worked with VW Group currently = 1st biggest manufacture in the world (ironically with Toyota who also seem to have got away with a huge defect cover up that caused deaths) and other car manufacturers fallen by the wayside in the meantime, perhaps partially as a result of some of this illegal corporate behaviour which could quite easily be seen as aggressive business practise.
There’s a bit more to it than that. Obama said the words at a joint press conference with David Cameron during the referendum campaign. You don’t think they influenced him at all? They may even have fed him the actual line about being “back of the queue”. An American is more likely to say “back of the line”.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
It was also a claim Obama couldn’t possibly make with any certainty since he wouldn’t be the US president when Britain left the EU. In reality once we had left why wouldn’t the USA want to do a trade deal with its closest ally (irrespective of the administration) when it has done with Canada and Australia?
@WP I agree aggressor doesn’t have to mean a military intervention however when peppered with references to marching on the Rhineland or Vichy then the inference is clear.
I don’t know about the cases you have referred to so will investigate them. Is there a possibility that corporate (bad) behaviour is being aligned to the EU as an entity?
There has been a tendency in the UK to implement to their fullest extent EU treaties whereas other countries take a more partial approach. This too drives a perception of unfairness.
I think this is part of the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by RichA
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8198271.html
how wonderful that you provide some impartial balance.Quote:
From the IEA, a right wing, neo-liberal "thinktank", described by one of its directors as being in "the Brexit influencing game" and which is being investigated by the charity comission for "cash for access" to Ministers for American donors.
From Civitas, an offshoot of the IEA, who distort figures on immigration and were criticised by the government for a pro-fossil fuel statement, which was described as “a manifesto for locking the British economy into excessive reliance on imported gas”.
And a story from the Guardian. About Tories accusing David Cameron of "trying to rig the referendum".
....this is your "evidence"?
Quote:
That story is over a year old. According to the most recent report:
"Concerning late transposition cases, Cyprus, Belgium, and Spain had the highest amount of open cases, whereas the fewest were open in Estonia, Denmark and Italy. Spain, Italy, and Germany had the highest number of cases pending for incorrect transposition and/or wrong application of EU law, while Estonia had the lowest total number of open cases last year".
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...s-1416741.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by RichA
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/119757.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/137564.stm
on the Air France issue and then when you consider just a few years later
https://www.economist.com/business/1...ving-for-cover
there seems to have been knock-on effects.
https://uk.fashionnetwork.com/news/c...aw,626700.html
for info on the footwear anti-dumping issue.
Shoot the messenger, regardless of whether they are a left leaning newspaper or a right leaning think tank :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
No one has challenged the points - well until you :D
or use obviously biased sources to argue for media bias?Quote:
Shoot the messenger, regardless of whether they are a left leaning newspaper or a right leaning think tank
yeah, must be one of those "progressive" fascist states that allows free movement, freedom of employment, enshirnes the right to vote at local, national and European level, protects the rights of workers, women, disabled people and the LGBTQ community. Which protects against discrimination on the grounds of religion or belief, sexual orientation and age. Which protects the freedom of thought, religion, expression, assembly and education and the right to a fair trial and to the presumption of innocence.Quote:
Check the multiple definitions.
Yeah, sounds pretty fascist to me.
Idiot.
If a person or body goes out to investigate an issue, it is likely they can be accused of being partial, even if they aren't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
Do you really think Open Britain would investigate BBC perceived bias against Brexit? Or maybe the BBC will open an internal investigation?
It tends to be a group or person that has a problem.
But regardless there are countless other accounts backing up the findings I linked to, but no doubt you'd challenge them.
Interestingly though, you haven't pointed to anything that counters this.
You have merely presented YOUR OPINION :rolleyes:
Economic migration is a symptom of the failing euro , and imbalanced free movement is a part of the problem, not the solution, which hurts both economies, The straight jacket on budgets ( with menaces for dissenters) guarantees subservience and eternal state penury, that the worse performing states are made worse still. But you don’t care. I do, because I meet the victims.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
Interesting now the talk of an imminent General Election has brought Ken Clarke to advise this morning that if the Government brought forward a simple one line bill to trigger that Election, he would add an amendment to bring the age of voting down to 16.
This is Ken Clarke who voted down the programme motion last night (having voted for the PM's package) on the grounds that proper scrutiny was needed and bad law was law rushed through without the appropriate checks and balances.
If the scenario comes to pass, I look for to Mr Clarke voting against his own amendment along with the majority of like-minded MPs.
great defence of your "definition" of fascism, there.Quote:
Economic migration is a symptom of the failing euro , and imbalanced free movement is a part of the problem, not the solution, which hurts both economies, The straight jacket on budgets ( with menaces for dissenters) guarantees subservience and eternal state penury, that the worse performing states are made worse still. But you don’t care. I do, because I meet the victims.
Well done!
I haven't offered an opinion on anything, just pointed out that your sources are dodgy.Quote:
You have merely presented YOUR OPINION
I could post this:
https://www.pressgazette.co.uk/poll-...ti-brexit-bias
or this
https://theconversation.com/hard-evi...-the-bbc-17028
or this:
http://www.vlv.org.uk/issues-policie...understanding/
but you know what, bias hasn't been proven one way or the other.
in your opinionQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
if a report on the benefits of smoking were written by a company funded by the tobacco industry, would that be dodgy?
Dave - it's been nice knowing you but it's getting a bit stupid so I'll bow out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
Happy trolling.
just trying to see how you evaluate evidence, as you've been one of the voices on here requesting "proof" and "facts" and claiming "bias".Quote:
it's getting a bit stupid
Don't get drawn WP.
Both you and Oracle have put some great discussion points forward.
The remainers will never be happy.
And on and on and on ..............
As I've opined before, this debate is now about our country's democracy.
The main political parties may well be surprised how leavers and remainers jointly view their appalling behaviour and contempt for the electorate over the last 4 years, when the inevitable General Election results are counted. The future political landscape at Westminster is likely to be very different to what we've known.