By Jove I fully agree with that last sentence Grump.
Very well put Sir.
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By Jove I fully agree with that last sentence Grump.
Very well put Sir.
I join with Dave and RichA in expressing discomfort with Oracles repeated allegories of previous politico-military machinations of Germany. It is starting to feel like a drip feed of far right poison. This, for me, is undermining the very cogent, and as far as I can see, well informed warning points he makes about the rise of the imperialistic side of the European experiment. It is that sense of nagging disquiet that he has added flesh to. But I am increasingly of the view that I should try to put aside his arguments because I think they are tainted. I do not get this sense from any other of the protagonists for the leave view.
What I would really wish for now, after all this time, is a referendum to repeal our accession to the Treaty of Maastrict. What we had before then...a Common Market... seemed a much better fit for our geopolitical relationship with Continental Europe.
I find it uncomfortable wheeze.
But why does a trading club need an army that aspires to be a “ player on the world stage”?
What kind of thinking motivates that?
When the EU decided to force Northern Ireland under its law for eternity,with no escape ever, called the backstop, how can any benign organisation even consider stealing a nations sovereignty? How is that not annexation? The soviets have done the same many times.
It is against all that democratic nations stand for. The EU demanded removal of NI sovereignty and right to self determination ( also breaching good Friday, they laughably said they wanted to uphold)
The question is not why we refused , why did EU ever consider it acceptable to ask?
What thinking allowed them to consider it?
It is a lot more serious and dark question than it seems at first sight.
When Verhofstadt states he aspires to “ death of nation states” , no optouts, no vetos. What does it say about that vision of empire?
Others can make up their own mind.
But recognise the Soviet Union said and did very similar things.
Mole seems fixated on nazis, which I do not. The uSSR is another comparable fascist empire ( in the context I use the word fascist) so use that comparison if it makes you feel better. ( and it’s currency union collapsed. The rouble zone. As ALL currency unions always do in dislike economies But that’s another story)
It is not the trading club we joined.
eU moved away from us.
It has ignored the Lisbon treaty on subsidiarity, and every day wants to steal more powers from the states,not devolve them. When that includes a battle ready army of 60000 deployable troops, we all have a right to worry.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
Let us come together to agree one thing.
What would you all like to see happen on nov 5th!
( you might get arrested for voicing it)
it doesn't and has no plans to have one.Quote:
why does a trading club need an army
negotiated by none other than Mrs May.Quote:
When the EU decided to force Northern Ireland under its law for eternity, with no escape ever, called the backstop
because that's not what they're doing.Quote:
how can any benign organisation even consider stealing a nations sovereignty?
Quote:
The soviets have done the same many times.
are we now calling the EU communist? I thought they were fascist?Quote:
But recognise the Soviet Union said and did very similar things
OH, I see!Quote:
The uSSR is another comparable fascist empire
You're a GENIUS! The USSR are now fascists. SOMEONE SEEMS OBSESSED WITH THIS.
and it's not me.
No matter how you want to define "fascist", and no matter how many times you repeat the word, it doesn't make the EU actually fascist. It does, however, make you look more and more desperate.
You have fixated on one definition of fascist which is ultranationalist.
It is not the only one.
I quoted the definition I use “ authoritarian, intolerant of any dissent”
Both nazi and ussr were shades of authoritarian socialist empire builders , not the opposites you seem to believe.
If it makes you feel better use soviet analogy.
And may did not negotiate the backstop, It was imposed. And EU refused to move on it.
It was also why the uk refused to accept, despite may, and still EU refused to negotiate it.
The points I made all stand.
Why did EU even consider eternal theft of NI sovereignty?
How can any empire that claims to be democratic ever consider it?
Not why did Britain refuse, what thinking led to them demanding it?
But cool it Dave.
All empires collapse because of excesses born of power craze.
Increasingly I see excesses in the EU
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
You are really enjoying this. It's like a written version of James O'Brien's brexit calls on LBC.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
This from the UK Defence Journal.
The EU has also established Permanent Structured Cooperation (PESCO) a strategy which aims to “jointly develop defence capabilities and make them available for EU military operations” which the UK has chosen not to participate in.”
Sounds like an army by proxy to me. What sort of "EU military operations " do they envisage?
Wikipedia contains a useful list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perman...ation#ProjectsQuote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
It is the rhetoric that scares me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
Another Phrase from borell.
The European Union “has to learn to use the language of power.”
In a context of The history of Europe - that should scare people. It scares me.
I am not making it up.
Der Leyen is less combative ( an army of Europeans , not European army, which is what Dave mole alludes) she is so incompetent Germany could not wait to get rid of her: she allowed an army with no working guns! Airforce with no working planes!
But that is not macrons view who says “ a real European army”
These guys are megalomaniacs.
I'm not a historian, but I doubt an authoritarian regime just pops up overnight from nowhere.
Look at the EU attitude. There are plenty of examples away from Brexit of it showing some early signs of a distain for the democratic mandates of a nation state.
I think Austria was the first to get it's wrists slapped and off the top of my head we've had Greece, Poland, Hungary.
We have the attitude to elections in smaller nations where they are asked to try again. Note when France rejected the plan by a referendum they scrapped the plan and went back to the drawing board and brought it back in a way that avoided the need for a referendum in France, rather than ask France to go again.
They have a project. It seems to be that nothing is allowed to derail the project.
If you look at the idea pf PESCO I think there are some merits to be found.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
If the EU needs to deal with an issue like Kosovo again, it could make sense to have a structure in place to pull resources together.
It's possible to see now (I hope not) how tensions in Spain could flare up to the point where a small, perceived to be neutral security force akin to the UN peace keepers, could be deployed to try and settle tensions.
I also think it's sensible where we have many nations with very small budgets that won't stretch to aircraft carriers and other expensive capital items, that there is some capability planning.
That would make sense if under the NATO umbrella and coo-ordinated by the British and French.
In my opinion it is a cause for concern when it is done under the EU and statements come from some EU officials to suggest that there might be a longer term plan for this to be a breakaway from NATO as opposed to a sub-group within NATO to help NATO function better.
Both Merkel and Macron have called for the creation of a European army.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8631806.html
Ms Merkel endorsed the creation of the army while addressing MEPs at the European parliament in Strasbourg.
“We should work on a vision of one day establishing a real, true European army,” Ms Merkel said.
Macron:
“We have to protect ourselves with respect to China, Russia and even the United States of America.“We will not protect the Europeans unless we decide to have a true European army.”
"one day" and the EU stillQuote:
Merkel and Macron have called for the creation of a European army
as for PESCO: what, should the various armies of the EU not cooperate?Quote:
has no plans to have one
And look, I agree with WP on something!
OK, so let's have a definition from a Yale philospoher who recently published a book on it:
"In the past, fascist politics would focus on the dominant cultural group. The goal is to make them feel like victims, to make them feel like they’ve lost something and that the thing they’ve lost has been taken from them by a specific enemy, usually some minority out-group or some opposing nation.
This is why fascism flourishes in moments of great anxiety, because you can connect that anxiety with fake loss. The story is typically that a once-great society has been destroyed by liberalism or feminism or cultural Marxism or whatever, and you make the dominant group feel angry and resentful about the loss of their status and power. Almost every manifestation of fascism mirrors this general narrative".
being "authoritarian, intolerant of any dissent” does not make a fascist. Although that does rather sound like you.
Oh come on, that is the clear direction of travel. They don't make any secret of the fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8633196.html
The European Commission has said it is “delighted” that the leaders of France and Germany have backed the creation of a “real” EU army.
I suggest you read this.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism
There is no single definition, although the EU meets many of the list in Humberto Eco properties.
To avoid ambiguity I stated what I meant. And on that basis EU is fascist.
Ultra nationalism is not necessary, although some fascist regimes are nationalist.
You always avoid the substantive issues:
what kind of thinking conceived of eternal annexation of Northern Ireland under EU rule, destroying the right of a democracy to self determine, and in that case EU committed the ultimate violation of the good Friday agreement?
It can Only be an EU that has utter contempt for democracy.
The same contempt that thinks “ death of a nation state” , removal of veto’s and opt outs,
God forbid such a despotic regime ever acquired the “ demonstration of power” it craves for an EU army,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
I think this sorts it
fascist
[ˈfaʃɪst]
NOUN
an advocate of Brexit or follower of the Tory or Brexit Party
"David Lammy went to Boston, Lincs to fight against the fascists" · [More]
synonyms:
authoritarian · totalitarian · autocrat · Nazi · extreme/far right-winger · rightist · thick [More]
ADJECTIVE
relating to a desire to leave the EU.
"a parliamentary coup threw out the old fascist regime of Boris Johnson"
synonyms:
authoritarian · totalitarian · dictatorial · despotic · draconian · autocratic · popular [More]
why? what do you think they're going to do?Quote:
God forbid such a despotic regime ever acquired the “ demonstration of power” it craves for an EU army,
This is way out of order.
I would hope you would reconsider and delete the post and if not, perhaps someone can remove it.
yup. Puerile post.
it didn'tQuote:
When the EU decided to force Northern Ireland under its law for eternity
Quote:
stealing a nations sovereignty
NI is a devolved part of the UK.Quote:
eternal theft of NI sovereignty
Quote:
the backstop, It was imposed
Quote:
EU refused to move on it
it wasn'tQuote:
EU refused to negotiate it
negotiations about how to deal with the border between the EU and UK, post-Brexit, were going on before the referendum. These were between the UK and Republic of Ireland. Guidelines were published in 2017 and the EU declared that "it is the responsibility of the UK to propose solutions for the post-Brexit Irish border".
The in the Withdraw Agreement, the UK stated that its intention was "....to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement".
In November 2018, the Cabinet approved a draft withdrawal agreement with the EU which included an agreement that the UK and the EU customs territories would operate as one until the parties agree jointly that a mutually satisfactory alternative arrangement has been reached. Article 2 and article 20 provide ways to limit the backstop. Article 2(2) of the protocol states that it is a temporary measure.
The Irish government are keen on some sort of backstop, the absence of which was described as be "akin to a 'blockade' of the Northern economy".
All of which was replaced by Johnson's "border down the sea" earlier this month. In negotiation with the EU.
Throughout the process the EU have been clear that the "border" between NI and the Republic was the UKs responsibility and that the UK must come up with solutions to the issue.
You like redefining things on your own terms, don't you?
Words you don't like, bits of history you don't like?
PPP Mr mole.
Piss Poor Post
Does it matter that the vast majority of people in N.I. wanted the backstop to preserve the very integrated all-Ireland economy?
you're also fixated on the statementwhich reflects your ignorance of the wider issue. Perhaps if you actually read about this, rather than repeat a quote which, to misquote Inigo Montoya, "does not mean what you think it means" you might look a little less foolish.Quote:
"death of a nation state”
https://www.forbes.com/sites/marklya.../#1f2528b521dc
https://medium.com/@troycamplin/the-...e-2c4db0d64ded
https://www.ft.com/content/3c14ccee-...1-00144feab7de
https://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu...9&context=bjil
Your constant reference to "sovereignty", "annexation", "the nation state" makes you sound a bit nationalistic.
and now the government are being warned about civil disorder and political stability in NI....Quote:
Does it matter that the vast majority of people in N.I. wanted the backstop to preserve the very integrated all-Ireland economy?
Johnson knew this would be the outcome and decided to ignore it.
that's a fact is it :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
judge for yourself:Quote:
that's a fact is it
https://www.buzzfeed.com/albertonard...bfsharetwitter
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a9167651.html
https://www.euronews.com/2019/10/24/...-border-checks
assuming you have the evaluative capacity to make some sort of judgement about it.
Another insult. Why can't you make your points without resorting to them? I suppose we should be grateful it wasn't as vicious as your last one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
he constantly goes on about "bias", "facts" and "opinion". I tried to find out how he evaluated the veracity of sources and got the replyQuote:
Another insult.
so I have no idea. It's a genuine assumption.Quote:
Dave - it's been nice knowing you but it's getting a bit stupid so I'll bow out.
Could you half dozen guys not find some nice "political" forum to hold this increasingly divisive and personal debate. This is a fell runners forum. When I go to "What's New" i don't need to see yet more abuse and general unpleasantness
Too true, and the same warning would have been made about nationalists in the event of a hard border. The DUP did not think that one through when campaigning for brexitQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
it's just nuts, isn't it? You'd have thought this might have been thought about in a little more detail beforehand. How to resolve a boundary between the EU and a third party in a situation like NI?Quote:
the same warning would have been made about nationalists in the event of a hard border
It is possible to have no physical border in Irish Sea or infrastructure at the border.Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry
That is already defacto true. There are different vat and tax rates, so clearly a customs boundary. Such as carousel fraud has to be managed.
It would not be perfect,but clearly possible to also manage regulatory and tarriffs because no border is perfect. Technology can cope with most of this, add the fact n Ireland has few deep water ports or airports.
The offensive demand of EU for Irish Sea checks and/ or demands for border infrastructure show the EUs determination to incite trouble as a weapon, and EU absolute contempt for sovereignty or democracy, as proven by the eternal backstop , It is proof of why we must leave, who wants to be a member of such a nasty club?
Sadly the ultra vires idiots who promulgated the benn act, wrecked negotiation , or Boris could have forced EU to back down on that too.
If Barnier wants a border he can put it between Ireland and France. And when there are howls from Ireland, he can tell them they don’t care, or why does Ireland consider it reasonable for a border from ni to uk? So they can have one too between them and france.What is sauce for the goose.
The first thing EU needs to do is start to respect sovereignty and democracy as absolute, not abusable by EU, A solution then will emerge
Hmmmm, I thought you didn't like partial sources :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
Strangely though, I thought political stability or instability was a day to day issue in NI. The Assembly has been somewhat unstable since it was established and hasn't sat for some time, unless you count the cup of tea they had this week.
Isn't that what the consent principle was about in the GFI and the sort of double-lock built in to the assembly, for want of a better expression.
Anyway, having followed Brexit quite closely, I had understood the potential for civil unrest in Northern Ireland was focussed on border infrastructure.
In fact Sammy Wilson of the DUP summed it up perfectly this week, advising that the only reason this arrangement had been put together is because it was though one part of the "community" would start bombing again if one camera extra was placed anywhere on the Irish/NI border.
I don't like BJs new plan to be frank, but it seems to have been put together to try and alleviate concerns about civil unrest in Northern Ireland, not fan the flames.
it's also possible for unicorns to graze in that location.Quote:
It is possible to have no physical border in Irish Sea or infrastructure at the border.
and yet no technical "fix" has been suggested, because currently, no technology can deal with this. Specifically no current technology can deal with this at the border between NI and the Republic.Quote:
Technology can cope with most of this
wrong and wrong.Quote:
absolute contempt for sovereignty or democracy, as proven by the eternal backstop
Boris agreed it. It was the UKs responsibility to come up with solutions to the "border" issue. This was the UKs solution.Quote:
Boris could have forced EU to back down on that too.
then what happens between NI and the Republic? He could put a border between the Republic and the Moon, but it wouldn't solve the issue.Quote:
If Barnier wants a border he can put it between Ireland and France
because that's where the border between the EU and the not-EU physically is. I think you'll find the Republic are quite keen not to have a border. You might also like to have a little look at the Good Friday Agreement.Quote:
why does Ireland consider it reasonable for a border from ni to uk
The Republic and France are part of the EU.Quote:
they can have one too between them and france
You need to capitalise proper nouns.
as you know, all sources are partial. It's up to you to decide their veracity.Quote:
Hmmmm, I thought you didn't like partial sources
I honestly don't think he knows what he's doing. He doesn't seem to understand the situation in NI or particularly care about it. It seems like it's an impediment to "getting Brexit done" which he's treating as an inconvenience, rather than a genuine political issue. (that's an opinion, by the way :o)Quote:
I don't like BJs new plan to be frank, but it seems to have been put together to try and alleviate concerns about civil unrest in Northern Ireland, not fan the flames.
and for those who think their actions and words don't have consequences:
https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/news/view/...-and-the-union
I'm not sure the UK is concerned about goods coming from the EU in the UK but the EU seem paranoid about goods going from the UK to EU so surely the problem is theirs to solve. A border between Ireland and France would seem just as pragmatic a solution as one in the Irish Sea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Mole
I might be interesting to see what happens if the UK leaves the EU and then Scotland gains independence and joins the EU. Who's problem will that border be?