Brexit

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas

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Originally Posted by luxinterior

Now the CBI - they can't all be wrong?

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The CBI was in favour of joining the euro too at the time. Look how that turned out.

Forgot to mention Eddie Izard as well

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

It's a tough question really Noel and rather than answer it, I'll make a point about the expansion of the executive as I think that is relevant to why.

I think that the last 30+ years our society has changed hugely right across the western world.
If you look at the executives in all walks of life, they are shoring themselves up, creating more influence for each other, creating more pathways for each other.
Little power-bases.
They can give their reasons, but I doubt them.

Take Athletics.
It used to be largely amateur, became professional, but largely still reliant on a volunteer, amateur base and the AAA, the CAU etc. and still is.
Now we have an elite, professional executive that is largely detached from the grass roots.

A Professor at Birmingham University, by Jonathan Grix looked at this.
In this report on athletics, the Prof explains that many academics believe that the Britain has moved (since the 60s) from a form of Government to a form of Governance.
It's very interesting to read as the points made seem relevant to the Private Sector, Public Sector and fit with the EU Model as well.
Lots of "different actors" that make accountability difficult.

Athletics used to take most of it's revenue from below ie it's members, both elite and grass roots. It now takes most of it from above. Sponsors, UK Sport, Sport England.
So in order to sustain itself, it therefore has to meet the needs of those that sustain it rather than it's members.
At times it's members appear an inconvenience.
They tried the Buckner Report a few years ago, the members rejected it and they've come back again in 2015 with more of the same that the members had to fight to reject again.
(Some of which would have had an affect of fell running)
Remind you of the EU?
Referendum until you get the answer wanted.
No EU Constitution due to referenda, so we get the Lisbon Treaty, which was rejected until a new referendum was had.

In our governance we have added to our tiers of representation.
Town Councillor, County Councillor, MP.
Now we have Assembly MPs, MEPs.

The executive is getting bloated.

I think the EU is a symptom of that. They think they are forces for good. They think they have the answers and they self-promote what they do and it's difficult to question as you have no reall choice amongst the executive.
In the UK we have the PM, the bulk of the cabinet, the bulk of the opposition. We then have big business. The CBI, The Bank of England and even Obama.
It's no different abroad.
Any EU outers are largely painted like Farage or Galloway, as looney, cranky fringe parties.

Trump in the States is a symptom of this. The Americans don't normally have a choice really do they? Is Obama really any different? Just like Blair, Cameron - the politicians are media savvy spin machines.

Trump is the result of a frustrated population.

It will backfire. Maybe not enough and in time for the referendum. Or maybe the referendum will vote out and prove a catalyst for better Government for all.
I think we deserve better.

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One of the most cogent and coherent things I have seen written about this debate.
You've managed to articulate many of thoughts I have been struggling to express.

I especially like the comment about 'government versus governance'. Did you think of that yourself or see it somewhere else. Its hugely important.

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Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever

The CBI was in favour of joining the euro too at the time. Look how that turned out.

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I always find this rabbit attitude to the Euro odd. I am back and forth to Ireland all the time. As it is well known they have had their problems. It is simplistic to say that the inability to control their interested rates led to a flood of cheap money, that was used in the construction boom and then bust. Inept goverment/regulators that ignored the warnings, and were even complicit in trying to bury the consequences (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo_...ns_controversy) was the number one cause of the crash. No credible person in ireland would blame the Euro/propose leaving. If the Euro is such a disaster why is that?

Greece is another example. Anti Euro people say the Euro stops them devaluing. Not sure if many economists would say that devaluing is a credible way of fixing an inheriently broken economy. Do you blame the Euro for highlighting that the Greek economy is broken? It's a bit like shooting the messenger.

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Originally Posted by DrPatrickBarry

Do you blame the Euro for highlighting that the Greek economy is broken? It's a bit like shooting the messenger.

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You've mentioned Greece and Ireland but you could also mention Spain, Portugal and Italy (at least) as countries that have struggled through having the euro.

The euro has been a disaster. It amazes me that there are still people who delude themselves into thinking otherwise. It was and is a political project that was implemented without the building blocks needed for it to succeed, namely political and fiscal union. So countries with very different economies trade using the same exchange rate and adopt the same monetary policy. It is a one-size fits all policy that clearly doesn't work. A good example was in 2011 in the midst of the euro crisis when far from decreasing interest races the ECB actually increased them (twice!) due to German fears of inflation. But what the German economy needs is not the same as those of southern Europe.

Imbalances in political unions like the UK and USA are flattened out by fiscal transfers from wealthier to less well-off regions. In essence poorer regions are compensated for not being able to devalue their currency. This doesn't happen in the eurozone.

Currency devaluations are no panacea I agree but they give an economy breathing space in times of crisis. When the UK came out of the ERM in 1992 on "Black Wednesday" a swift currency devaluation followed. 16 years of unbroken economic growth followed. "Black Wednesday" became "Golden Wednesday". No wonder Norman Lamont was singing in the bath.

Let me pose a question (similar to Witton's on the EU in general). If the euro has been a success why is it that not a single trading block around the world wants to copy it?

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

One of the most cogent and coherent things I have seen written about this debate.
You've managed to articulate many of thoughts I have been struggling to express.

I especially like the comment about 'government versus governance'. Did you think of that yourself or see it somewhere else. Its hugely important.

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Thanks Wheeze. I can't claim that no. It is something refered to in the Grix paper and I think it is something coined by political scientists.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-...b_6858646.html

It's good to see the 'Remainers' getting a reasoned trouncing.:)

For me this vote is about potential. Which of the votes will lead this country towards greater freedom. In that respect neither looks very promising but the 'outers' have more of an understanding of what freedom entails. Without that understanding of 'what's wrong with Europe and the Union' we wouldn't be having the vote next week.

The European Union has created a welfare dependency and I'm not referring to the unemployed, although that is a consequence. They've created it amongst workers in various sectors who have become dependent on handouts. Some farmers, scientists and those in alternative energy industries spring to mind. They've also created a human rights act that positively discriminates for certain individuals against others. Add to that the long gravy train of suckers who bleed this country and you can see why the 'outers' are picking up momentum.

The main European players don't grasp the concept of 'freedom.' They just pay lip service to it when something bad happens, like when nutters go rampaging through the streets in the name of religion. The rest of the time they walk over it. In France recently for example workers were striking and rioting against a fundamental individual right I.e. to sell one's labour and time for the hours one chooses. Then look at the young unemployment in countries like Spain and the inherent corruption in places like Greece.

Yes Europe is in a trouble and if we remain we'll cop for more of the same as our leaders tie us up further in political union. We'll be stuck as Europe extends the welfare dependency to others. The rich people who benefit from this economic Fascism will continue to prosper and everyone below them will be left without defence as Europe feeds off them.

So Forumites vote out on Friday and put the brakes on the gravy train.

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Originally Posted by Derby Tup

Turkeys don't vote for Christmas

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No they vote to join the EU

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Originally Posted by CL

So Forumites vote out on Friday and put the brakes on the gravy train.

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I suspect David Cameron will be hoping those planning to vote out leave it until Friday.