Printable View
I personally wouldn't recommend orthotics full stop, short term solution to what will be a long term problem. Instead try exercise and posture work to realign and rebalance, look at the whole picture not just the small picture.
Try the yoga mountain pose for example.
Orthotics are a crutch and like a crutch are helpful in the healing process, after that muscles need to be worked and the underline problem needs to be addressed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inov-8 Insider
Apologies. Yes Roclite 305's:D
I've started to use orthotics in my Walshes because i have slightly flat feet, which coupled with other things set off my ITBS. A lot of people on here don't believe they are any good for fells but i disagree strongly based on my own experiences. Some orthotics are higher than others you just have to ask your Podiatrist for a slimline one, mine are slim enough to just about fit in a Walsh without raising the heel too much. As for a shoe i couldn't reccommend one but i think most Inov8 shoes have removable footbeds which is what you want, the new Walsh Spirit Lite also has these.
I use my orthotics in my shoes, they fit well in my flyrocs, New Balance trail and 290's (though I sometimes don't used them if its very tricky terrain for the reasons stated by inov insider). I have had to use them in my yellow 330's because the fit in so much bigger and my heel keeps coming out of the shoe(which is not a dig).
I find generally they work quite well and I suffer without them on long distances mainly through back pain.
Funny how nearly everyone I've talked to who's had any sort of niggle or injury ends up with orthotics "prescribed" to them by their physio or podiatrist. (myself included)
Okay, so the current advice is that if you're misaligned and imbalanced, inserts will correct your postural imbalances.
Forgive me, but I can't help thinking that this is a quick fix solution.
A mate of mine at my local club is always complaining that the physio hasn't "fixed him properly" Its like throwing money at a problem, is better than taking time to get it sorted properly and making a bit of effort.
Posture is everything.
How did we survive before orthotics? How can the foot flex enough with a stiff insert in a shoe? Totally unnatural, get rid of them and invest in the time it will take to exercise yourself better. A fallen arch can be rebuilt.
Lots of discussions on other threads about this. For minor problems orthotics might be OTT but my feet are wrecked and I couldn't run without them!
It's not always about fallen arches, mine have a 4 degree wedge underneath which has taken so much strain off my ITB it's unreal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Twister
I realise that it is not just about fallen arches, this is just my personal experience, but I'd guess a lot of people using orthotics also have flat feet? (BTW, my feet are no longer flat!)Quote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
My point is that I just can't believe it is impossible to gain correct alignment and posture through rehabilitating exercises. Orthotics will address some postural imbalance, but they will not strengthen the muscles that would do this for you naturally.
My point is that I just can't believe it is impossible to gain correct alignment and posture through rehabilitating exercises. Orthotics will address some postural imbalance, but they will not strengthen the muscles that would do this for you naturally.[/QUOTE]
According to my NHS orthoticist, who has nothing to gain by prescribing orthotics but more work, it is not my muscles but the set of my bones at fault, which might have been changed in my youth, but far too late now. I can see for myself that it is impossible for the pads at the outside and inside of my feet, just behind the toes, to contact the ground at the same time. This means my feet have to keep rocking and twisting, which upsets my knees, ankles, and sometimes contributes to spells of plantar fasciitis. I do massage and stretch my feet to try and keep them from getting any stiffer.
I am extremely distrustful of private podiatrists, who do indeed seem invariably to prescribe costly orthotics whatever the problem. That doesn't mean orthotics are NEVER the solution. Mine enable the whole ball of my foot to support my weight, which is the arrangement nature intended. I am all for stretching and strengthening, but faced with months and years sidelined by injury, I'm glad to take the instant fix I've been offered. I am also grateful to my trekking poles, spectacles, sports bra and many other unnatural "crutches".
I feel very stable in Flyrocs with NHS orthotic insoles. I suspect orthotics will not fit as well in any Performance fit Inov8s. Flyrocs are the ideal compromise, with 2 arrow soles they are close to the ground, and their Endurance fit acommodates orthotics nicely. Mudclaws certainly don't. Personally, I would love some Endurance fit Mudclaws with Endurance rubber soles, but perhaps I am too much of a minority. One day, will we be able to dial up mix and match Inov8s?Quote:
Originally Posted by Inov-8 Insider
Fair enough. I guess I'm bringing too much of a natural running agenda to this, for some it maybe a useful aid, fair point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexandra
You say though, that its impossible for the pads at the outside and inside of the feet to make contact at the same time... If you look at slow motion of a barefoot running gait, you will see that the foot never makes contact all at once and that it lands on the outside edge and rolls inward to the ball of the foot, the heel then kisses the ground. So there is a rolling motion of some sort.
Another fair point, I have no experience with sports bras. I have used poles and am myopic. As for specs, I like to think that people with short sight "evolved" to progress humankind... Think about the advances made that require an eye capable of viewing things in the minute - clockwork for example. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Alexandra
At this point I will get off my high horse about orthotics and never mention them again. Besides, a greater evil are the gait analysis treadmills in sport shoe shops.... :mad:
Fascinating - what's wrong with them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Twister
This is more for the road runners out there but we've all had a go at some point I'm sure.
You jump on the tread mill, start running and then the "qualified" shop assistant prescribes you the most expensive running shoe to correct your over-pronation/suprination/etc.
What's wrong with them? They are a sneaky marketing device that convinces the unaware and new to running that they have something wrong with them and only a shoe can correct it. Great example of pseudo science. Great way to increase profits keep runners returning to the shop every 6 months for a brand new pair of shoes.
Running shop centred gait analysis and Runnersworld magazine sum up all that's wrong with running at the moment. (Don't get me started on Runnersworld, the thread has been hijacked enough).
Twister, do you think there's a place for gait analysis done by someone properly qualified though?
Or would you say it's never useful when deciding what sort of shoes to buy?
I think that the ones you get in the running shops with running brand names attached to them are there for the sole purpose of selling shoes.
Another thing is that the old dreadmill forces us to run in a different way to which we would do normally, so how can it really be a good indicator?
I think humankind managed to run quite all right for 100's thousands of years before technology entered in to it.
Don't be worried about hijacking the thread Twister it's an open forum and i'm finding your skepticism of things interesting. I agree about your distrust of gait analysis at places like Go Outdoors, whilst obvious running tendancies can be detected by them i don't think it's something i'd trust personally. I'd cirtainly trust my Podiatrist though it seems to be a bit of a hit and miss science to me, i was started with a 2 degree wedge and advised to expect a 40% improvement, which never arrived. When he increased the wedge to 4 degrees and said it was normal to increase the wedge in these circumstances i thought, hmmm here we go; but it worked. He also explained that my problem was related to abnormalities in the way my Tibia and Fibula have developed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Twister
Has something happened to you to make you distrustful or do you just believe in other ways of approaching things? Hope that question's not too intrusive.
I too am not a fan of running shop gait analysis. When I bought my first pair of 'proper' running shoes approx 7 years ago from Sweatshop, the shop person looked at my feet, had me run up and down the shop a few times and I ended up with motion control shoes that never gave me a problem.
Fast forward a few years and after time off to have kids I went to Up & Running expecting a similar thing. They had me run on a treadmill and declared I was a neutral runner. Not being wise about shoes at that point I duly started running in neutral shoes and had no end of problems. By the time I realised my old shoes had been motion control I'd already gone down the orthotics route.
I now use orthotics in all running shoes and wouldn't even consider running without them off-road.
Twister - we 'spoke' last year on the barefoot thread. My VFF haven't come out of the cupboard since last July (had a long injury and been too scared to try them again) but I still think barefoot's the way to go if you have the time to make the change.
Yes, I was sold off the peg orthotics for my low arches by the last physio I saw and spent about two years in an injury/run/injury cycle. It culminated with a very bad ankle injury that laid me off for 3 months.
That was just about the time that I started learning about natural running, pose technique, chi running, barefoot etc. and have sort of combined the philosophies of these in my running today. It has been about 16 months since I started down this road, I've got rid of the inserts and very gradually re-built my mileage and now only run in very minimal shoes. I've also done a bit of balance and postural exercise, and try and "pick up" my arches, I try not to "slouch" on them if that makes sense.
I also spent a long time working on my knee and foot alignment, gradually bringing my feet inward towards a more neutral stance, tai-chi helped a lot with this, and bodyweight squats.
my original point was made as I know that there are a growing number of runners out there who are making a good transition to a more natural running style and I think that there is a lot of marketing around "fixing" runners problems where a gradual rehab would be better and perhaps less costly.
Hi,
I have been having problems with pain in my calfs. My physiotherapist has suggested that I see a podiatrist who I am going to see on Tuesday. I suspect she will prescribe orthotics and I want to know if it is worth going down that route (and if it is worth the expence). I know that many people do not recommend them for the fells, but I would use them mostly for off road training on tracks, grass, small hills; nothing to technical at the moment and also on the road .
Thanks.
Been lost of discussion on this over the years - may be worth searching orthotics.
Personally I couldn't run without them including on true fell races.
I use them for fells to alleviate my ITBS and they work, not sure if a calf problem will need orthotics so fingers crossed.
If your orthotics work then your physio has done you a favour and themselves out of a regular client. I'm glad I took my physios advice and ended up with orthotics; I've easily saved the cost of them by not getting recurring calf problems AND I'm able to run. The only person who has lost out is my physio!Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinegar Hill
Personally, I would do everything I can to avoid orthotics. Read about barefoot/natural/minimalist running on the internet.
which orthotics are you guys wearing? superfeet?
i have orthotics and could not run without them, had a number of gait related problems that manifested themselves in different ways including calf pain. I bought some via a private orthopaedist originally and though they helped they did not stop everything and he did not do anything other than tinker with them. However I then got refferred to an NHS sports clinic and was seen by a physio and an orthopaedist, the combination of orthotics and prescibed stretching has worked wonders.
Use my inserts in all races and shoes without any issues, so I would recomend that you go for it, but look around for someone with a good rep and who will work in tandem with your physio.
what kind of stretching are you doing?
Thanks for the replies everyone. Will see what happens tonight.
I wear superfeet (green) in my inov8s and custom orthotics from the hospital in my normal shoes.Quote:
Originally Posted by SEFTON
Regarding the comment about barefeet that assumes that you are OK to start with. I shouldn't really be running at all!
As well as usual running ones. For back a number of pilates ball exercises to stregthen core, back and buttock muscles. For plantar/feet/ankles - calf stretches and various ones using a large elastic band on the side and ball of my foot.Quote:
Originally Posted by SEFTON
Just out of interest. Did your calf pain come on after purchasing new shoes? Do you run on roads and trails in built up shoes (high heels, loads of cushioning, support features) and switch to fell shoes (with low heel, minimal cushioning, lower profile) for fell? Do you normally heel strike when running?
Far too many people just add to their problems with orthotics instead of addressing underlying issues first.
Agree with Twister although we can not all be cured with a change of running technique as some of the others have indicated.
Have a look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jrnj-7YKZE then see if you still think you need orthotics or a change in running style.
For the record I tried orthotics running and they caused me more problems. A change in style has helped more than anything else.
Yes I agree johnmc. My physio referred me to a very experienced podiatrist and commented on the fact that he was doing himself out of a lot of work! He wasn't wrong - I literally could not run half a mile without being in agony and was able to run straight away, the day I first put my orthotics in my running shoes.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnmc
I have been intrigued with all the talk about barefoot running etc. It's something I would be interested in trying, but as someone said to me - why? You have orthotics and you can run, barefoot running would inevitable involve a lot of hard work and you may end up worse off... Fair point!
So for me, orthotics get a big thumbs up - that said, they aren't for everyone, some people find no improvement or worse. I guess our physical make up is pretty unique and what works for one does not work another.
Hi,
I have been having problems on and off for about four years now. Don't think it was a change of shoes that started it. First phyiso I saw about 31/2 years ago suggested sciatica and had treatment for a long while, which did erase the problem for a while but this could have been the rest/stretching/massage etc'. Problems came back when starting competing again. Been off running more than on ever since.
Seeing a different physio now who has found that the back of my knee is tight (amongst other things) and thinks that the poplteus muscle may be pressing on the vascular supply - going to GP to get this looked at. Been having manipulation, massage and doing stretching etc. The physio also suggested the podiatrist, who works in co with him.
I have ordered orthotics - I over pronate slightly and there is very little bend between the lower part of my shins/top of feet which can not be resolved by massage/manipulation etc. Fingers crossed.
Do you heel strike ? If so check the link to my earlier post. I've been reading alot about running style and have changed mine accordingly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinegar Hill
Hi,
I do heel strike - 'thought everyone did. The video/barefoot concept looks interesting. I will continue with the physio now and try the orthotics when I recieve them. If these don't work I will give bare foot running a go.
I have used orthotics for 20 years, foot surgery cured the worst of it but i know when my orthotics are starting to wear as i suffer knee pain, and if i leave it long enough - shin splints, hip and back pain. I wear them in all foot wear and stick them in my sandles with velcro.
They can be expensive but no orthotics means no running for me.
Hi,
Thanks again for all the replies. Got my orthotics now - am busy getting used to them.
Don't think of it as one or the other, but all elements of the solution. Stretch, build your strength, bare foot run and use orthotics. I think cycling might have a part to play as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vinegar Hill
Yes, they do work for some people, and I am one of them.
I have the flattest feet my physio and podiatrist have ever seen; I have the kind of footrpint that the other kids used to laugh at when I got out of the swimming pool.
I do some barefoot running to help strengthen my arch, but no amount of this will cause my arch to lift to a "normal" position.
The orthotics help do that.
I wear them in all my shoes, and I don't run on the roads if I can avoid it. If I don't wear them, my patellar tendons rapidly become inflamed.
So I wear them and they keep me running.
Stu's correct; various methods need to be used to keep problems at bay.
If one thing only works, you are very lucky.
I'm with Morgan on this, same issues re flat feet. The regular calf/knee injuries I always seemed to get on building up my mileage have disappeared since I changed from Walshes to my Speedcross, into which I can put my orthotics. Expensive but good value to my mind.