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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
Van der Poel, Van Aert, Froome, Tom Boonen, Alaphilippe, Cancellara, Pidcock
I'm a Cav fan, but he only comes in to his own at the end of a stage and with this team I think I could look forward to every stage with anticipation.
The way i see it, my team will be the most entertaining. Stannard's job will be to tow Pogacar to the base of the big climbs, where we find out if he can beat dirty uncle Lance to the top. The aussie will give us a rolling commentary on how my crybaby sprinter Cav is feeling, and how many triamcinolone inhalers Wiggins has been through. Boardman is only in if he's using the Lotus bike, otherwise i'll have Greipel to stir things up with Cavendish.
sounds more like the initial draft pick for the Dirty Dozen :DQuote:
Originally Posted by mr brightside
Here's my 7 - picked entirely for entertainment value!
Jens Voigt
Thomas Voeckler
Thomas De Gendt
Thibaut Pinot
Julian Alaphilippe
Peter Sagan
G
I toyed with Pidcock, Stannard and honourary Brummie Dan Martin too.
It greaves me to leave out Pantani but apart from a brief cameo in the 2000 tour, he was past his best.
This was MrsS's
Fabian Cancellara
Laurent Jalerbert
Wout van Aert
Philippe Gilbert
Alejandro Valverde
Vincenzo Nibali
Cav
I think she would win but I'd scoop the combativity award.
Nice piece Graham. I won't quote comment it as when you delete, my copy would be retained I think.
I enjoyed his win. he climbed really well, so well I think the main bunch decided they couldn't get to him.
I listened to the Eurosport discussion yesterday about how the Stage saved Ineos's Tour.
I disagree. I think it's a useful bonus, but in reality they have a development team, with two riders in the top 10 and they lead the team standings.
I usually watch Eurosport although not particularly for any profound insightful commentary from such as Adam Blyth. For that I read David Walsh's half page piece in today's The Times. His full first seven paragraphs didn't refer to the stage at all - Walsh is a man who can write - but when he got down to it he says simply "...Ineos Grenadiers (was) a team that needed something to happen."Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
He also says (and I missed this if it was reported on TV) that IG was going to tell Kwiatkowski to drop back to support Pidcock and Rodriguez up the climb. "Luckily whoever suggested that was overruled."
It's very flowery, Graham, but what does it tell us that we didn't already know from watching yesterday's highlights show?Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
Kwiatkowski was lucky, and he admitted it himself. Under normal circumstances the breakaway would have been caught before the summit; I think he said "We had a free ticket to the bottom of the climb"
As to the Ineos Grenadier team, they don't have a genuine GC contender and haven't for some time. I don't know if this is through under-funding, (relative to other teams), poor coaching, or bad recruitment. Yes, they've had some bad luck, including a really bad crash to Egan Bernal a while back, but a team of their stature should have two top leaders.
I don't see Ineos Grenadier winning a grand tour anytime soon, unless it is through a top GC contender crashing out and them inheriting the win. If Rodriguez and Pidcock were going to be top GC contenders we should have seen it by now; they are 22 and almost 24 respectively and Tadej Pogačar and Remco Evenepoel both won grand tours at 22. Contenders, maybe, but with Pogačar, Vingegaard, and Evenepoel all racing at the moment it's going to be hard for anyone else to win a grand tour in the foreseeable future.
Not mentioned in Stephen Puddicombe's writing is the other two-horse race in this year's Tour de France; the battle between the Yates twins. In theory it should be Simon, as Adam is doing heavy-duty domestique duties for his boss, but I'm not sure that will be the result as Adam looks to be in slightly better form.
I agree about Ineos. Nothing lasts forever, from the success of Manchester United to the Roman Empire. In fact in thinking about La Vie Claire or Banesto I was musing that I have never seen a book in English about consistently successful cycling teams/DS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
And I like discursive writing. Don't you like my Fellrunner articles? :D
Another day for Ineos and think he is technically on the podium. This racing is edge of seat stuff and a far cry from the Sky train of a few years back, plodding up the mountains in a line and nobody attacking.
The difference is that there are two riders head and shoulders above the rest, supported by two teams head and shoulders above the rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by molehill
Whilst it was a great stage win for Ineos, again, it was only because the top two were playing games, and being baulked by two motorbikes, that they got the win.
How many potential Grand Tour winners are there around at any one time?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Sometimes you will get a winner by default such as Tao G-H a few years ago at the Giro. But it's bloody tough these days with the increased profile of these races to look beyond the same 4 or 5 riders.
Let's face it everyone thought this TdF was a 2 horse race from the start, with the rest fighting for 3rd place.
If Pogacar, Vingegaard, Roglic or Evanpoel turn up, the rest almost might as well not bother, barring crashes or illness.
So when Ineos have slipped a little from the domination they had, it's only to be expected. They have looked mostly to the Hispanic riders for recruitment, which hasn't worked for them.
They've clearly missed out on Tao G-H as well, who early season looked to be riding better than ever.
In terms of age, cycling age surely must come in to it. I reckon most will get 5 years at the top. That for some could be 22-27 and for others 27-32, much depends on the training and competition pathway they've taken.
Pogacar has been on the radar since age 11, is the youngest to ever win a UCI stage race and completed his first Grand Tour 4 years ago, and Pidcock has only been a Professional for 2 years.
Whilst Pogačar was the youngest winner for some time, at 21 years and 365 days, I should point out that Fausto Coppi won his first Giro d'Italia at 20 years and 158 days, and Giuseppe Saronni won his first Tirreno–Adriatico at 20 years and 175 days. There were even earlier winners, way back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Before Graham mentions it, I should say there were 13 years (and World War II) between Coppi's first and last Giro d'Italia wins. In the current era, Mark Cavendish has won sprints in grand tours over a 15 year period between 2008 and 2023!Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
What you might have added is that Coppi was a POW during WW 11 so I guess his nutritional needs during those years fell a little behind that provided to Sky/Ineos riders, in or out of a pharmacy. Anyway I ride a Bianchi because Coppi did.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Incidentally (I know Marco will know this) Cippolini's Grand Tours were spread over 14 years and, of course, his 42 wins in the Giro is a record. I know he wasn't and isn't a saint - but he had style that that Manx shoulder-charging roughneck can only dream of.
I know this is romantic guff but Merckx won his 34 TdF stages along the path of being the greatest cyclist the world has ever known and probably ever will...and the prospect that a man who is carried round the TdF on a feather bed and then just sprints for 200 metres achieves 35 and adulation doesn't seem quite right to me.
I would have to reread my Merckx biographies to see how many TdF stages he gifted but even if it was only one it will be one more than Mr Manxman.
Having said that I do understand that no media outlet will pay journalists/ commentators to write/ say how great, say, Merckx was; so we live in an era of lauding instant heroes to collect the pay cheque and uphold circulation/ audience ratings. ;)
He wasn't racing Sky/Ineos riders. He was racing riders who'd also been through WW2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
So Coppi had a few years off for the war and his first win was against a field of Italians in 1940. He might have been a cycling great, but it's not a great example because in his later years he clearly had a lower cycling age than he would have had but for the war.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
But to the main point, that Ineos have slipped up in their recruitment. I agree - but mitigation is that there's only 1-2 grand tour potential winners coming through each year and I think their scouting got carried away a little down in South American looking for the next Quintana - a rider who never quite lived up to expectations - much like the recruits they brought in.
And whilst Pidcock might not make it to Grand Tour challenger, maybe he doesn't even fancy it, he does have the potential off what he has shown so far.
He's relatively unexposed and as shown in glimpses he has what it takes even in this Tour. Not bad for a cyclist who's target was the Spring Classics.
There is a grand tour contender with the potential to beat Pogačar and Vingegaard hiding in plain sight in this year's Tour de France.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
I spotted his potential last year, so I'm pretty sure that Sir Dave Brailsford has been offering him money to join Ineos. It's not just spotting the talent, however, it's persuading them to join the team and buying them out of whatever contract they've got.
The cycling greats won grant tours and classics. That's why Coppi, Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault, Fignon and now Pogačar are talked about so highly. Whilst Pidcock clearly has some class, he's some way behind the top five currently active grant tour contendersQuote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
I think that's what you call a straw man Marco.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Strangely today an article in the Telegraph.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/cycling/...-cannot-go-on/
"Tour-winner Andy Schleck thinks cross-discipline titans such as Wout van Aert and Mathieu van der Poel will be retired not much past 30"
Opined Andy Schleck who retired at 29!:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
??? :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
"The cycling greats won grant tours and classics. That's why Coppi, Anquetil, Merckx, Hinault, Fignon and now Pogačar are talked about so highly. Whilst Pidcock clearly has some class, he's some way behind the top five currently active grant tour contenders"Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
If it's a comeback at what I said I've actually only identified potential in Pidcock. I can see he's clearly behind the top five, but he's never prepped seriously, and with the will and application he could be a contender by 2025 as he seems to have fewer miles on the clock than most.
If I've done you a disservice, I apologise :)
Quite a performance today in the TT.
Indeed!Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
I think Pidcock came to road cycling late but has time to becoming a true GC contender if that's the path he wants to take. How old was this year's 2nd at the Giro?
Remco Evenepoel looks to be a likely target for Ineos if Rodriguez heads to Movistar next season.
Well money doesn't talk it swears and if a team spends all its money on the star and doesn't have any left for a strong squad...although I suppose that's not a problem for the Ineos Bank.Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
One might think a Spanish rider would like to ride for a Spanish team (the only team) but has Movistar now put its years of infighting chaos behind it?
And what is the value/down side of riding for a patriotic team? Would the next Eddy Merckx not prefer to ride for a Belgian team? But that hasn't helped French riders much who always wilt under the weight of home expectation so much that Laurent Jalabert moved to Spain just to get away from French pressure. The recent history of French cycling is full of the corpses of riders destroyed because they weren't another Hinault.
It's so interesting!
Interesting to look at how Jumbo-Visma have taken to poaching Ineos riders.
Dennis last year and Van Baarle this year.
Built a strong squad to support the two GC guys.
UAE have done similar. They have Pog of course, but having Adam Yates, Soler and Majka who've all been GC contenders recently is taking a leaf out of the Sky/Ineos book and a lot of strong riders not at the TdF.
Fancy an early attack today from UAE. Get someone up the road on the first climb and a Pog attack on the 2nd.
It's the proverbial or bust after yesterday.
I'm probably way off :D
The point I am trying to make is this current period is unusual. In the past, there have been periods where one rider, such as Hinault, was so much better than the rest that they won pretty much won every stage race they entered (barring injury/illness).Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
There were other periods when there was no outstanding talent, and it was wide open (I'm thinking of 2011 after Bradley Wiggins crashed out).
The current time is not like either of these. For the first time in around 50 years we have three truly great grand tour winners all competing at the same time, and they are 23,24 and 26 years old. Talented as Pidcock is, it's going to be very hard for him (or anyone else for that matter) to beat these three.
In years to come this will be seen as a golden age for stage racing; enjoy what you're seeing now, as it could be another 50 years before we get an era this good again.
It's a fair point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
and the point I'm trying to make is that there is more specialism now.
Riders seem to be one day racers, or GC contenders in stage races. Pidcock even this year prepped for the Spring Classics and won one.
Job done.
Pogacar might be a capable classics rider, but I reckon this week he's paying the price for what happened in the spring.
The evidence points towards less specialism: Pogačar has won two Tour de Frances, two Tirreno-Adriaticos and one Paris-Nice. He has also won 7 classic races, and he is still only 24. Remco Evenpoel has won the Vuelta a España and 5 classic races, and is only 23. And then there is Wout van Aert, who despite doing a colossal amount of heavy-lifting for Jumbo-Visma has won the Tour of Britain and 5 classics.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
I was surprised that Pogačar even started this Tour de France, after missing so much training and racing. I would not expect him to be at his best, but he's still 49 minutes ahead of Pidcock in the GC
He's a local lad and all...but I'm not yet convinced by Pidcock.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
We don't know yet if he has the strength for the third week, we don't know if he will give up easy victories like MTB,... The most successful recent Tour riders have been those for who it was that or nothing: Armstrong, Indurain,Froome.
At his age I don't think Pidcock will willingly limit his options to the Tour when victory is always a hostage to fortune and by the time he makes his mind up there might be another Pogacar champing at the bit.
The days of Cadel Evans winning as a Vet 50 are gone.
Graham, have you forgotten the epic 2013 Vuelta a España, when Chris Horner beat Nibali, (who we don't like), and Valverde, (who we do like), to become the oldest winner of a grand tour at almost 42!?Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_Vuelta_a_Espa%C3%B1a
If you think this year's Tour is great, (which it is), this was even better ...
Just goes to show, the same evidence and different opinions stemming from it. I'm on the back foot debating someone with far more knowledge of the sport - I'm just an armchair punter since the Lemond/Fignon TdF - the first one I watched and got hooked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
But I don't doubt recent grand tour winners can go out and win classics. But I think they have to make a choice and Pogacar might have been doing better this year had he skipped the Classics.
Bianchi are selling the 8 Oltre RC bikes that will be ridden on the last TdF stage tomorrow by Arkea Samsic riders complete with the individual rider's dossard (number) for each bike.
Cute idea. Each bike is 15,500 Euros.
I suppose it would be a nice thing to hang on one's dining room wall for dinner party conversation - but alas the bikes are equipped with Dura Ace 12 speed.
Sigh.:(
So I thought I'd just update.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Only two players unfortunately, myself and PeteS
I scraped home with 8581 Points to Pete's 7889
My top 4 scorers were Pogacar, Simon Yates, Van Aert and Gall. I suffered a little with Cavs crash out.
Pete's top 4 were Vingegaard, Philipsen, Pidcock and Pinot
Overall 30501 teams took part and I was 7983 and Pete was 13679 which is quite a gap considering the small point difference, but both well in the top half.
They should have the Vuelta when it starts, but we only get about 48 hours notice by email, so anyone interested in having a go, set yourself up with an ID on Velogames and then link to the FRA Forum league and you should get an alert from them when the final team lineups are confirmed and we can have more of a contest next time.
Well done WP. A good call on one of the Yates brothers.
I'll certainly be up for the Vuelta too
Not for me; the Tour de France has left me with a bad feeling that sport-enhancing-chemicals (drugs) are influencing the results againQuote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
https://www.velogames.com/spain/2023/
Vuelta entries open now if anyone wants to join in.
La Vuelta a España
Roll up, roll up, for the greatest grand tour of the year (regardless of what Graham says :)). Starts this Saturday, and features nine summit finishes, including the mighty L'Angliru. For those who don't pay for sport on TV, Quest appear to be showing an hour highlights show every night. Starts late this Saturday, but then fills the 19:00-20:00 slot.
To get you in the mood, here's a related quiz question - and use of the internet constitutes cheating!
In what year did the first British rider win La Vuelta a España?
I'm inQuote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
It is interesting, is it not, that the last 10 Giros have been won by 10 different riders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
For the Vuelta only Roglic has won more than once with three wins
The last 10 TdF include Vinegaard twice, Pogacar twice, and Froome thrice.
So one might conclude that to avoid "same old, same old" one watches the Giro!