I am not a free man I am a phone number!
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I am not a free man I am a phone number!
Yep, as it happens, I agree, the word "compulsory" should have been omitted and replaced with "advised" or something along those lines. Like many people, I recoil at being told what to do when common sense and personal choice should suffice. The debate will no doubt continue but frankly, I can't see that carrying a mobile phone will ever be a compulsory requirement for running fell races (especially judging by the nature of the comments on this forum alone) in the same way that full body cover is for winter races so perhaps we should think of this as a pilot and treat it as the one-off that it most likely is.
I suspect that last years race really put the wind up the organisers and led to the slightly later run date as well as this 'not entirely thought through' mobile phone requirement.
Like I said earlier in the thread, I'll bring my (employer's) phone as I have to but will have a zero expectation that I'll be able to get a signal using O2, wouldn't want to stop running to use it if I felt I was suffering from hypothermia (stopping will surely make me colder), have no real idea who I'd ring if I was in trouble (presumably the organiser will give out the MR number before hand?) and wouldn't want me having a mobile get in the way of getting real help from nearby runners or marshalls.
Its easy to say that a mobile is an extra safety net but where ever the line is drawn there will always be an extra safety net that can be added in. The line should be drawn 'this' side of compulsory mobiles being carried
As for carrying a map and compass. Shouldn't race organisers bear in mind that some runners can't actually navigate with a map and compass and therefore should be required to provide proof of competence in this area eg a certificate of participation on an FRA navigation course or Light Green colour standard at an orienteering event. Otherwise how will runners in need of assistance report their position using their mobile phones? Don't tell me that a satellite can actually lock on to a mobile. That's a bit like being tagged. Hey why not tag runners then they could be tracked like on route gadget?:rolleyes:
Wow, good waste of half an hour reading this. My thoughts as a slow competitor, an organiser, and an observer.
Competitor: I understand the thoughts of not taking a phone, I don't when running and will never take one (although I did when the SO was expecting a child!) But if an organisers says stand on one leg and wear an eye patch, then so be it. The following year if it is the wrong decision, there will be less entries from eye patch wearing individuals. So if a phone is compulsory, then I will get a cheap one in the event of trashing it.
Organiser: There is nothing more heart stopping to hear there has been an acident in the race you are part of organising, despite all the warning notices, verbal and written, you give out. The sports we enjoy competing in/organising (yes, some of us do enjoy organising them!) are by design risky and dangerous. We cannot dictate which way a competitor can run/ride (only by penalising them if they cheat from the route intended) or what syle they use. So we try to cut out the risk to us of having heart stopping moments. If you have marshals on a route with communication, then individual phones are surplus to requirements, as the area can be searched between. If the route is a long one, and marshals are sporadic, think of your phone, if carried as a potential life saver for someone else, as you then have a decision to do the moral thing and help a fellow runner by using it (or trying to) Personally, maybe it should be they are strongly advisable. We try different formats, timings, categories. Sometimes they work for the best.
Observer: As a time keeper at a recent cycle sportif it was handy that the last competitors had a mobile phone, as they were about an hour behind everyone else and it was getting dark (in the Lakes) A simple phone call found they were nearly there, we held on waiting for them, plus relatives knew they hadn't fallen in a ditch somewhere.
Love the Fruit Flan, Stringman;)
If an organisers wants the rule of carrying a mobile, then let them be, be it right or wrong. A lot of people complain of the 70 MPH limit on Motorways as it is outdated, but we pay the fine for speeding or keep within it. Your Choice.
Hey Chris, I hear Dark Peak are installing solar / wind powered recharging stations at the checkpoints for us mobiles
making a clunking noise in the washing machine.
then the tumble dryer.
then working again
Can't help thinking that the whole paranoia that is beginning to infest organisers is a very bad omen for this once adventurous sport. :(
I knew this would happen. On my ML assessment a couple of years ago the carrying of mobile phones was still a discussion point now it seems you are criminally liable if you lead a group onto the hills without some form of electronic communication device. In my regular job as a teacher people regard you as irresponsible if you don't carry a mobile phone.
I've been going on the hills for a long time and I've always felt free there. Not any more.
By the way I think that marshals out on the fell should definitely use whatever they need to be in touch with base and if something even better than a mobile phone gets invented they should have it. marshalling/organising and racing are two very different things. The organiser is responsible for the marshals. Runners are responsible for themselves.
In the Merrick hill race the race organisers have the services of a local radio ham club who provide a radio network. I suspect more radio ham clubs would be willing to help out if asked.Quote:
Originally Posted by Guick Dotto
The last quote? Really? I've just spent a week running in the North West Highlands and felt as free as I did 10 years ago. Not sure what has changed for a general hill runner rather than hill racer? Why do you no longer feel free?Quote:
Originally Posted by Guick Dotto
Re the MLs and mobiles agreed. If a client had a heart attack and died and you were in an area of signal (most of Snowdonia summits) and had no mobile you'd be in trouble.
I was talking to a mate, a VERY experienced diver/fisherman/boat person re the use of GPS's and he reckoned hill walking is where his sports were 10 years ago. When they first came out it was very much as a back up, now almost all sailing/powerboating/dove boats/fishing boats work largely of GPS's if they use any form of navigation. Many just navigate by sight. Wonder of we'll see the same change in the mountains.
I'm not sure as 'old fashioned' navigation is so enjoyable and part of the experience.
Can't have been-hardly anyone actually does it. We just all collude to the myth of navigating in races. I race 50 times a year and hardly ever see anyone with a map out.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
Once when lost I got my map and compass out and was instantly surrounded by half a dozen runners with cries of "he's got a compass!" They should have had as well (kit requirement) but they were lost as well but like most runners in races were just following the person in front.
Sorry I assumed some people went out in the hills outside of racing?? I'm refering to going out in the hills. I certainly don't get the great fredom experience from fell racing. I took buicks comment to mean being out in the hills, not racing.
This is the Fell runners forum, not just fell racers
I agree re racing, I've only used a map in a fell race once or twice. I follow, most do, but wouldn't blame anyone if I got lost with them, its all about taking gambles. You win some you lose some.
Dark Peak use hanheld radios at most checkpoints which communicate with base & each other. We used to use a local radio club but one of the guys got exposure on Brown Knoll .......................
my mobile dunt work when I'm divingQuote:
Originally Posted by IainR
IainR
Well maybe I'm overstating it with regard to just being on the hills. It's up to me if I want to go out at night, solo a route, swim a lake and bivi in a cave without telling anyone. But I'll bet beginners' guides and updates of Langmuir will stipulate mobiles as necessary items of kit and in a few years you and I will seem as eccentric as Millican Dalton when we set off running with just a pair of shorts, a vest and fell shoes on. You're already thinking what about the bumbag...?
Edam, don't know where you race but I have regularly needed to use my compass during a race. Usually I'll write down key bearings on my hand with biro and use them to get me across clagged terrain rather than having to struggle with a map. I reckon I was running 'blind' on a bearing for 70% of the Rhinogs....and, yes, I did collect a few 'faithful' followers who assumed I knew what I was doing! The local radio hams were also out in force that day.
Made the mistake of following a local at carneddau last year who cheerfully led us the wrong way off llewellyn. Served me right for being lazy and not getting the compass out. We live and learn!
Depends, spent all week running in the Highlands, about 60 miles, 20,000 ft of ascent, 5 more munros, a corbett and a stunning morning on the Eastern Skye Hills.
Sometimes I'll run with nothing, last week we took rucksacks, mitts, I also carried a bothy shelter, but with temps of -5 and 50mph winds, wind chill was -23 I think a spare fleece and other safety gear was justified, so I think you go out with what you think is necessary.
A mobile is certainly something to be considered when I pack a bag, we didn't carry one last week but did discuss it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
The start of this thread was enforcing the carrying of a mobile in a race so my comments were about racing.
The guy I replied to made a general comment about 'in the hills', to me that's not racing.
I appreciate for others it is, fell running is a wide raning sport, many come into it from the climbing/hill walking back grounds and spend onlya small % of their hill time actually racing, where as many come to it from the roads and only really step foot on the hills to race.
Someone needed to say the truth Edam. For 95+ per cent of us, once the map or compass comes out our race is pretty much over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edam
The idea behing compulsory map and compass carrying is presumably to enable you to get off the fell safely in the event of difficulty.
That's a good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
We run nav courses for the WFRA and people want to know about navigating rapidly as though there's some secrets, but really once you are that lost you are better off forgetting about the race, calming down and getting off the hill.
The problem is that few runners practice, only pick up a map when lost in a race, adrenalin pumping, in a rush, and have little chance of navigating competently. Much better off just putting the race out of your mind and getting on with the navigation and relocating to a definitive point, then if you want to carry on the race, carry on.
I know one or two runners who can maybe navigate at near to top racing speed. But local knowledge or a recce would negate that advantage. That is why the navigation thing is a myth other than in 'O' or 'MM' events. I know we can't all recce a route beforehand and I can see Wheeze's point about the Rhinog Horseshoe race but I still agree with Edam about the navigation myth.
I don't think this really relates to the mobile phone issue but I think the way the discussion's gone it's quite interesting.
Hi IainR, I'm an ML and MR, I agree if a client did have an injury you need to have the best options for helping them and getting them off the hill pronto (or any one you come across). although if they had a Heart attack there is very little a phone could do in the hills. An MI is nearly always fatal on the hill unless medical help is with you in minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
I was on Grindslow last year and I used both Radio and Phone during the Race.Quote:
Originally Posted by skyline
I'd like to see some one 'race' around the Kinder Mountain Trial in a couple of weeks with out getting a map or compass out:D you don't have to be fast to do well in this race, the perfect race for those wanting Nav practiceQuote:
Originally Posted by IainR
The Rhinogs Race this year was a great example of run slowly but navigate well. My missus won the womens and was something like top 5 or so and said she finished not that tired as she'd been so steady but continually navigated and didn't get lost at all until a mistake coming off Moelfre.
Yeah true re a heart attack, but it gives you a better chance of help within minutes. It also means you can speak with the MRT's and talk things through with them, what they feel the best options are, walking off yourself, them meeting you or staying put.
I agree many runners couldn't use a map, but many need to understand the need practice. Going on a course gives you a grounding in the skills but you then need to go out and practice contour recognition and gaining further experience.
Agreed again, I know a number of occasions where lost 'walkers' have been talked off the hill after giving the MR a call or have been able to give an accurate description of where they were so we knew where to go quicklyQuote:
Originally Posted by IainR
I was talking to another team a few weeks ago and they had an incident where the party walked off the map they were using with out realising it.:o
I cant help feeling that mobiles still tend to reduce self reliance and encourage people to carry on in circumstances where a more sensible decision might be to get off the hill - as an ex MR member I do know of a number of rescues where they have been helpful but I can also think of others where people have 'relied' on a call to MR not as a last resort but as an early solution to perceived difficulties which they could have resolved themselves with a little skill or effort. This is contrary to what I understand to be the ethos of being in the mountains be it to run climb or walk. As a fell runner I am inclined to think that a greater aid to safety than carrying a mobile would be by having more thorough kit checks at all starts - possibly at registration? I think I've only ever had my kit checked a couple of times apart from Jura where its done every year for everybody. Personally instead of a mobile I would rather carry (and often do) some extra food, a bivi bag or heavier duty cag etc than a mobile - at least I know I can rely on those to work when I need them to! I'm sure a mobile probably does add an extra degree of safety in some circumstances - but so would building a road to the top of Scafell to let an ambulance get there more quickly and so would insisting that nobody ever runs solo on the fells.. I know these are extreme examples but its all about what is acceptable to each of us as individuals, so I'm not criticising anyones views here - if I dont like a race organisers rules I'll either accept them anyway with good grace - or choose not to enter.
I agree with most of what you say but this last bit is another example of missing the wider issue. If one organiser does it and people don't question it, then others will feel the need to include it as a requirement because a PRECEDENT has been set. If it becomes the norm for this to be a requirement (which could easily happen) then it will change the face of the sport in a way I and others above find undesirable.Quote:
Originally Posted by COUGAR
I will not be entering the Edale Skyline; I never had any intention of entering it, so this ruling does not affect me... YET.
The problem will only affect me directly when and if this ruling rears it's ugly head in other races. It's not enough to simply say 'OK, I won't enter' because gradually more and more races will be denied me if I do that.
As I've already said, this growing tendency to be over-cautious will, ultimately, devalue the sport UNLESS we speak up about it..... which you did, so sorry for the tirade. :o
Is their any reason why a race organiser wouldn't feel s/he had the right to insist on runners carrying a GPS and subsequently to tell them they weren't welcome on the race if they objected. I think you're right we're going to see a lot more changes and we're going to like it less and less.Quote:
Originally Posted by IainR
There was a Finnish bloke ( a great guy) on my ML training course 10 years ago. We were walking up a hill in the Carneddau and he was talking, I thought, to me. When I answered him he said "Oh sorry I was talking to my wife... in Helsinki." Then he rang off. " She's going to ring me back; it's cheaper." The other trainees looked at each other, shrugged and smiled. Whatever turns you on.
Now if you don't have a phone you are regarded as dangerous. Things are changing faster and faster. Will FRA/BMC membership/insurance be denied to people who refuse to undertake to have a mobile with them at all times whilst on the hill. All you people who are so sanguine about this issue: "This is the modern world, get on the bus." maybe it's not such a small matter.
Here's a question: Is there anybody on this forum who's glad mobiles are now soon to be part of the compulsory kit list. Anybody saying "About time too."?
There is an interesting facet of this whole debate....why do we fell run/race?Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamB
Grahams point above seems to be saying that because there are now more people fell racing, we need to modernise it. But perhaps because fell racing/running places more emphasis on disappearing values of self reliance and self responsibilty, perhaps this is why more people are doing it? So, to modernise it would be to dilute the very reason why people do it in the first place.
I know that the reason I fell race rather than do XC or road running is because I enjoy the additional requirements on self reliance and good preparation rather than just outright speed.
I am not saying we need to modernise fell running. I am saying we/you need to recognise that fell running as judged by FRA membership and race attendances has increased in popularity and today's fellrunners are different from 30 years ago. Different backgrounds, expectations,.. And the attitudes of external authorities have changed as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
Personally I don't like racing with 500 other people (and I always train on my own on Ilkley Moor which I can see as I type and sometimes I see no other person at all on my run) but just because I have been fell running longer than most of the 7000 doesn't allow me to resent them wishing to share the experiences I have had for a couple of decades or the fact that they are now more likely to be refugees from road or trail running than shepherds.
I just do not accept the mystical "self-reliance" etc argument for most fell runners. I recognise your values but I think the 500 people who turn up for a Woodhead race over Haworth Moor to run in a crocodile just think it is more fun than running on concrete. Yet those 500 or the hundreds who applied for the Three Peaks Race in 36 hours are the modern face of fell running.
It is, as they say, a point of view.
I have done the odd thing for the sport but I am most pleased to have helped to save Ennerdale and Wasdale because to me they epitomise fellrunning. I don't wish to see them modernised and I would be surprised, to say the least, if Colin or Richard demand the carrying of mobile phones in the near future!
That's more the style. He didn't say " Now everybody hold your mobiles in the air so I can see them. That all looks good. You're safe to go now."Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamB
But isn't that the point though, Graham?Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamB
That races like Ennerdale or Wasdale will inevitably have to acquiesce to compulsory phones, because other organisers like Edale will have set the new safety standard?
No! See my anecdote about Joe Faulkner. Joe was actually breaking some FRA Rules that day but he said "my race, your risk, over to you". And nobody went back to their car to go home.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mud
I don't see that time or numbers are relevant in this debate. Witness Golf or cricket. Major shifts (like recognising women) do have their impact but the underlying sport remains intrinsically the same no matter how many people want to do it....and they want to do it BECAUSE of the 'traditional' values the sport offers. It's the same principle as 'historical' preservation of fact. So called do-gooders are (successfully) trying to eradicate the teaching of the Holocaust for fear of offending Muslims without ever asking if Muslims are concerned about this. In our sport, the idea of embracing change because more (less well versed) participants are taking part is just as misplaced. People do fell racing because of its character: not because they hope the 'authorities' will dilute its character to make it safer/more acceptable etc etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by GrahamB
What a great thread. Just got back to see it. Personally I'd rather run in a race organised by Selwyn Wright where 'if you can get to the race its on'. I think this kind of race will last far longer. H and S to the level we have it now is a result of living in the good times....drive to any race you fancy , buy any gear that you'd like to do it with. When the oil begins to run out we will look back on threads like this with amusement. I've always fancied myself aginst the sheep farmers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
Wheeze,
You are putting arguments in my mouth that I have not uttered and then disageeing with them eg where did your last sentence come from!
All I am saying is that eg in November 1973 there were 337 FRA Members.There are now over 20 times as many.
Sure, many of the 50 fell races around in 1975 eg Fairfield, remain the same classics. But many of the 700 new ones are not! How could they be? Fell running is not inventing many "new" Wasdales.
So when the new or changed elements have taken over and dominate the sport... please recognise it.
It reminds me of the steam locomotive "Flying Scotsman" epitomising the nostalgia for steam. Great. Except that after 80 years not one single piece of the original engine is still there.
I didn't have you down as a Daily Mail reader, Wheeze....Quote:
Originally Posted by Wheeze
I think the OTT requirements has come in via the none running club race organisers,as well as the increased entry fees.When you have to pay out insurances for individual races instead of having a blanket cover club affiliated insurance,it must cost a fortune.Together with the fear of having claims,driving the insurance even higher.You can understand why they insist on having as many safety requirements as possible.When you have short trail races asking for map,compass,full body cover etc,you wonder where is it going to end ? This then becomes the norm amongst all races,club or privately run.
The appeal of fell running is surely that of freedom and small rule books.Why is the entry form disclaimer not worth the paper its written on ?
Will we have GPS chips,flares or ration packs ? ... i've seen a race requiring you carry at least 750ml of water !!!!
What will be next ??:confused:
Because it's not you who is going to be suing the organisers in the event of your death, it's your next of kin or other dependants.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rodders rambler