kick might well be better, but of 2.10 rather than 2.05 pace...hummmmm:rolleyes:
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kick might well be better, but of 2.10 rather than 2.05 pace...hummmmm:rolleyes:
Thread of the Year. Nominations closed.
But good thought-provoking stuff boys (n girls). Can we keep it up -without illegal substances?:D
It's hardly impossible.There's a guy who comes on here who's raised his by 17ml/kg/min, and he's still got some tests to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by saz
He also found himself at the front of a triathlon, which he stated was a novel position for him.The triathlon was around 1.50 in length, reasonably close to a marathon in time.
I would hesitate to suggest that running hard for 26.2 miles has a quite different metabolic demand than doing a triathlon in 1 hr 50 - espcially in the case of some-one who can raise his vo2 max that much which would indicate that he was in a pretty untrained state to start off with. (have you developed a test to predict vo2 max).
CL - if it is your belief that training to increase your vo2 max is the most important thing to improve endurance performance, then fine, but in my view it will mean that others will always be training more effectively than you
s
ps a certain ms radcliffes vo2 max has not changed much since she was in her early 20s yet she is a much better runner, but then that must be the asthma drugs kicking in I guess
Saz lets get to the crux.I have an athlete stood in front of me, with a V02 of 60.I now pump enough red cells into him to bring his V02 to 80.Quote:
Originally Posted by saz
For the sake of argument we'll assume he doesn't suffer a negative reaction(a reasonable assumption considering blood dopings widespread use).I now get him to run the marathon.
Remember nothing else has changed except his ability to carry oxygen.Isn't it obvious, that now he'll be able to run considerably faster?
Well it's obvious to me!
1 no its not obvious
2 I pity the athlete
Because he's pumped full of red blood cells or because he's stood in front of Christopher Leigh?Quote:
Originally Posted by saz
Quote:
Originally Posted by saz
It's obvious to Vinokourov,Tyler Hamilton, Jan Ullrich and Dr Fuentes.I don't pity them either, they deserve to be caught.
Hey I'm not that bad!Quote:
Originally Posted by Doonhamer
Mmmm, shall we have a poll?Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doonhamer
NO! I'll be lynched.
I didn't think this thread was about Vinokourov, Hamilton etc. because no one here is saying they aren't drug cheats who deserve to be caught. I thought your accusations were about people such as Gebreselassie, Freeman, Holmes, Kipketer, Aouita, Michael Johnson, Martin Lel, Radcliffe, El Guerrouj etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
I am particularly interested in your interest with Said Aouita, about whom, oddly enough, there are pretty good drug suspicions. Why do you use him as a benchmark for distance running achievement? - Only asking.
Come on now - If you kidknapped Christopher Leigh and put him in a library for 2 weeks, and increased his IQ by 20% as a result, would that make him more intelligent? Or would he just know more? Could he use this knowledge to his advantage? But can you just increase IQ like that? :confused: ;) ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Doonhamer
He was my hero in the late 80s.He took over from Coe and Ovett, and was very gutsy.That doesn't make me lose my objectivity though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
I was informed by a club colleague that some Australian athletes had made certain allegations against Aouita.If these rumours are true, then I'm disappointed, although not surprised.
If he knew that athletes had to take drugs to be on a level playing field then he should have resigned, rather than encouraging it in the face of reality.
As to his days as an athlete, I don't think he drugged himself.My reasons for thinking this are his performances on the whole.He ran many world records, but he had to push himself extra hard to achieve these.The rest of the time he concerned himself with winning.
I remember reading an athletics article about him in the early nineties.It said he didn't run further than 15km in training.He seemed to have adopted Coe's weight training practices.
I use him as a benchmark because I believe he's one of the greatest runners the world has ever seen, and also because it took his speed and stamina to break world records that had lasted years.
Today there are athletes a lot slower(in terms of basic speed) running a lot faster than he did, and making it look like a training run.
The real reason though is: to run 1 second a lap faster than he did or even 2secs a lap requires a huge increase in oxygen uptake, that in my opinion cannot be achieved through normal training practices.
I honestly believe today's athletes are no better than past ones.No better even than athletes 4 decades ago, and I apply that to all endurance sports.
big difference between knowing more and intelligence
Zero + 20% is still Zero
:D
Sorry couldn't resist
Fellhell you're not advocating people kidknap me now are you?:mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by fellhell
Good point Saz.Intelligence is the ability to reason, whereas knowledge involves memory.Saying that intelligence cannot exist without memory.:confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by saz
There are plenty of people who can remember all sorts of facts and figures, but cannot reason.
CL, the reason I think your argument is circular is because you only rely on the fact that runners are fast therefore that they take drugs. They take drugs therefore they are fast.
Aouita may have been clean but he was a lesser runner than Rono.
Coe's record over 800 metres stood for 20 odd years befor Kipketer beat it by fractions.
To be honest I don't really care because I myself have lost a fair bit of interest in mainstream athletics due to drug issues - I refuse to argue the point as to whether I am more dangerously naive than you are. What I do take issue with is you trashing everything on here with your agenda.
My opinion is that we are rubbish as a nation because we buy into a victim mentality.
It is a fellrunning forum. As far as I know Jebbie doesn't buy into the mediocrity - but you trashed my suggestion that people should train that way, suggesting that people would die from it!
Those of us who never ran as hard as we could will never know that we just weren't very good at it.
According to this,Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
http://www.sauktri.org/reports/report30.php
Radcliffe has a V02 Max "In the region of" 80.
Other V02 max info shows,
Bjorn Daehlie Cross country skier 90.0
Miguel Indurain Cyclist (winner of Tour de France) 88.0
John Ngugi 5 times world cross country champ 85.0
Dave Bedford 10km World Record holder 85.0
Steve Prefontaine 1 mile in 3:54.6 84.4
Lance Armstrong Cyclist (winner of Tour de France) 84.0
Joan Benoit Marathon runner (2:24:52) 78.6
Bill Rodgers Marathon runner (2:09:27) 78.5
Sebastian Coe Middle distance (1 mile WR) 77.0
Grete Waitz Marathon runner (WR 1980) 73.0
Frank Shorter Marathon runner 71.0
Derek Clayton Marathon runner (WR 1969) 69.7
So, if V02 max is the only critera, why can Seb Coe run 800 in 1:41, and Radcliffe only 2:05?
Nikalas increased his V02 max from 49 to 66. From here on I'd suggest the law of dimminshing returns applies? I'd also speculate that he didn't push himself 100% in the first V02 max test.
Application is the key to knowledge and intelligence.
All I can state with certainty is that Radcliffe has improved dramatically since I last took her on a training run... ;)
Someone please, lets get it over and done with.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
But aren't you contradicting yourself?Or are you just losing interest because of those athletes that are caught?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
Obviously there is a point athletes can't go beyond.I've got a book here by Lydiard.In it he quotes from Moorhouse and Millar's 'The physiology of sport' certain facts pertinent to running.
To go from a 78.43secs/400m to a 67.60secs/400m requires an increase of 3.67litres of oxygen/min.To go from a 47.91secs/400m to a 47.24secs/400m requires an increase of 5.5litres of oxygen/min.
So clearly as the speed increases the demands for oxygen increase dramatically.So going from a 66secs/lap in a 10k to a 64secs/lap calls for huge increases in oxygen, that cannot be met by normal metabolism.
If you don't understand this there really isn't anything else I can say to make you understand.At the top level of our sport there is very little natural difference between the speed of world class athletes.
The point I was making about Jebb is, for some athletes to copy his training routine would be a mistake.They wouldn't be able to stand the amount of training that he does.Others could.
Each of us must tailor our training to our own abilities.
I think you know very well Chris that I'm not trashing EVERYTHING.To say that is to misrepresent my views, that I've clearly made.
My agenda is to redeem our sport by frank discussion of the corruption destroying it.
I've never seen Rob Jebbs' training quoted anywhere? Maybe Saz should get him to take a proper V02 max test and find out what he may / may not be capable of?Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
I NEVER said it was the ONLY criteria.I said if you raise the same athletes V02 from 60-80 they'll run a faster marathon.Quote:
Originally Posted by dominion
Likewise if you remove a pint or 2 of blood from an athlete, they'll run slower.
Sure about that?Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
If the Norwegian skier and the Spanish cyclist got off their skis and bikes could they be the fastest runners?
It's an interesting question. Lance Armstrong has run a 2:46 marathon. Now that ain't world class but I doubt he trained anywhere close to the levels he trained at as a pro cyclist? So V02 max plus application?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
Why? If you aren't very good and you want to be why not ask Jebbie what he does in training and copy it.Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher leigh
There is a fair percentage chance that even if you don't become great, you'll be better than you are now.
Dom that was an example to demonstrate one variable.Quote:
Originally Posted by dominion
There's a fair chance you'd get slower as well.Particulary if you couldn't recover.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
There's a logical way for every runner that wants to get better, to train.