I'm in!Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
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I'm in!Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Three of us so far but still time
Guaranteed Podium :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
I've mostly played catch up on the Vuelta - coming back from holiday last weekend and then a lot of catching up workwise meant I couldn't watch much live.
I saw the extended highlights on GCN+ for days 1-5 and 6 and 7 mostly live and just caught up with 8 & 9 extended highlights.
It's not ideal and hard to connect with what's going on, nut it looks like its shapping up to be a decent event.
7 x GC contenders all within 33 seconds, but 2-3 minutes behind race leader Kuss.
Kuss would not be considered a GC contender but I do wonder if the tea, will support him through week 2. JV certainly don't need to attack so a lot of the responsibility rests with UAE and Quickstep.
It will become clearer tomorrow. If Evanpoel can pull back the majority of that 2:22 on Kuss, but then if Kuss can hang on in there and have most of it intact.... we know he can climb and probably out-climb Evanpoel.
Looking forward to getting back in to the live coverage this week.
VELOGAMES STANDINGS at the end of week 1.
voiture balai
Pierre Moliere (PeteS)
2003 points
Kompany`s Clarets
Richard Taylor
1911 points
Asthma Aids Ascenders
Haven`t a Clue (Llani)
1568 points
Llani is suffering from the loss of Dunbar and Jay Vine.
Pete has scored well having gone for both Vingegaard and Roglic. Theuns has also turned out to be a cracking pick for him.
A lot will come down to who gets to the end and picks up the big points for overall standings in the main jerseys.
In summary none of us are doing great :D
PeteS is our best atm and is only overall Rank: 15207 of 18885 so we are doing much worse so far than at the TdF.
Just to give an idea the leader at the moment has 3947 points from Groves, Evanpoel, Kuss, Soler, Ayuso, Landa.
They even have Barrenetxea who I've never heard of from Casa Royale with 209 pts.
Good luck for week 2 guys.
There are only a limited number of ways to win a bike race.
The last ten minutes of todays Vuelta are a brilliant (and hilarious) example of one of those variations.
I enjoy watching the racing but i'm not fully conversant with all the tactics...
However i can't for the life of me understand the furore about Kuss, Roglic and the other guy.
Three team-mates, all at the top of the standings.... just let them battle it out and see who wins.... would have made for a fantastic last few days to the Vuelta.
I just don't see why having some genuine racing between team-mates generates "bad publicity" for their team.
Racing seemingly pushed out for the benefit of sponsors.
It is totally a team sport. It is never a case of individuals "battling it out".Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
Kuss has proved to now be the strongest rider despite his normal role of being "a bidon carrier", a domestique.
These three riders are paid £millions and those millions come from sponsors. Nobody pays to stand by the side of the road to watch a bike race. Sponsors matter. Why is there no Tour of Yorkshire this year?
And looking at the big picture - Kuss is an American and road racing is a European sport. Nobody will notice in the USA if "the other guy" wins but they will certainly notice if Kuss wins a Grand Tour from a field packed with Grand Tour winners.
A serious question that has occured to me, in Wales we have the 20mph speed limits coming in this weekend (our village has the restrictions signs up, despite the fact it was never a 30 so we have gone from 60 - 20 in one go).
So what happens to big bike races when they go through towns, they will all be going over 20, including the team cars, camera motor bikes, police bikes and cyclists?
Do they have a legal dispensation so the limit is not enforced or is it simply ignored?
I now consider myself a "boy racer" on my bike as I attemtp to break all the limits into villages 😎
I'm perhaps missing the point, but your final two paragraphs appear to back my point up....
Team decision taken with the sponsors in mind... its understandable, but a real shame.
If Kuss hadn't worked for them they wouldn't be in a position to win so It is very much a team sport. Football strikers wouldn't score as many goals if the others didn't pass the ball to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
That's a perfectly fair point.... but from a sporting point of view, let the three team-mates battle it out... the team is still guaranteed the GC victory, and most likely all three podium places anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOOT
So when Froome (born in Kenya) was proving himself the stronger rider on the TdF climbs but was called back by SKY to prop up a faltering Wiggins so he could secure the first TdF win for an Englishman did you complain that they should have been left to "battle it out"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
To illustrate: so Kuss rides 2000 miles carrying bottles and food backwards and forwards to, say, Roglic and protects Roglic from the wind and wipes his nose so all Roglic has to do is push the pedals and not fall off - and then after Roglic has been feather-beded for 17 days it turns out that Kuss is actually the stronger rider... you think it sporting to let a fresh Roglic and an exhausted Kuss "battle it out"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
To be absolutely honest, i've never really paid enough detailed attention to cycling to know that even happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
Like i say, i'm not an avid follower like some on here... but i do keep an eye on it.
Personally, i think its no more or less sporting than effectively fixing the final classification with several stages left to ride.Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Breeze
For myself, I can't wait for 20mph speed limits in the villages around here. With 30mph limits, it's hopeless trying to get the vehicle-activated signs to tell me to slow down as I cycle into a village, but with a 20mph limit and a tailwind, I've got a chance. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by molehill
On the stage Graham enjoyed I think Kamna came 2nd. A few kms out he broke away on a descent and come off on a corner.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
It cost him around 15-20 secs and he got back to the group and lost in the sprint.
The point being that if the 3 riders from LJ decided to hell with it, let's rip it up on Stage 20, which is like a typical classic stage, they might lose a couple of them and end up with just one on the podium.
It's very much a team sport as has previously been set out and the need for team strength in a Grand Tour is clear to see, whether it's for overall, or sprint trains.
I'm chuffed for Kuss. I think he's a worthy winner. He's carried Roglic and Vingegaard to multiple grand tour wins because that was his job.
He could never push on from the front on a major climb unless it was a team tactical decision, because he had to stay with the team leader to protect them, or he had to soften up the opposition for his leader.
This is his payback - hopefully.
I don’t think it will make any difference at all Moley. When the Tour of Britain visited Llani a few years ago they came flying into town down Y Fan road at over 40 mph (30mph limit).Quote:
Originally Posted by molehill
They did stick to the 30 mph limit up Bryn Du hill, on the way to Tylwch, though 😂
I’ve just looked at the 20 mph restrictions in Llani that come into force on Sunday. There are 8 of them in total, they look very random and make no sense.
One of them is on the A470 bypass but there is not one outside the school!
I think it would have been far better, less confusing, and made more sense to make the whole town 20mph.
I've heard even the dogs belonging to Roglic and Vingegaard want Kuss to win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
All quite worthy points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
And as i mentioned, i'm coming from it with a point of view from a non-cycling, non-technical background.
But the team have clearly done their job well, and (whether deliberately or not) got three riders in podium positions.... so let them off the leash and race it out.
I'm sure everything you say about Kuss is absolutely correct about him being a worthy winner... but by the same token, what about Roglic.... he's been "set up" to win the Vuelta.... and now the team have changed their mind.
In my (clearly un-knowledgeable) opinion, team politics should never trump outright racing.
I nailed one this morning and felt very naughty - as an V70 I see each one as a challenge now 👍Quote:
Originally Posted by anthonykay
I trip a 30 on my morning commute sometimes. Admittedly a slight downhill but it's a must do anytime I take that route ;)
It would be difficult for me not to in Addingham (20 mph) or descending from the Cow & Calf (30 mph) so my defence, your honour, is that, as a public spirited citizen, I am testing the equipment to ensure it can catch those wicked speeding motorists.:DQuote:
Originally Posted by PeteS
After the start some guys will go off in front because they are after points, the main GC teams will blockade the road once so many have broken away. The points will mainly come from intermediate sprints, but some riders are just aggressive and like to cause trouble. Any riders that are GC contenders are unlikely to get into breaks, other GC riders will go with them thus 'covering the move'. Now ensues the task of keeping the breakaway close enough to catch up in the last 20km, the big teams have cannon fodder who sacrifice themselves to accomplish this- domestiques. If the break is still off the front with 15/20km to go the main GC teams now start to squabble over who knocks a notch on and reels in the break, if they piss about for too long a break rider will win. If the break contains over 6 riders they can rotate and hold the peloton off for quite a while. Assuming someone decides to do some work and reels in the break the main GC teams now line up and shelter their top lads to keep them fresh. Interlopers who can string a sprint together now try and tag along to the leadout trains and get a free ride. They sprint for the win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travs
It's far from what you might expect, it's organised and often very predictable. Mountain stages are very different.
And then they all go for a pint in the Craven Arms ;)
Congratulations PeteS :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Final Scores
voiture balai
Pierre Moliere (PeteS)
7267 points
Kompany`s Clarets
Richard Taylor
5515 points
Asthma Aids Ascenders
Haven`t a Clue (Llani)
4212 points
PeteS only lost one of his 9 riders and pairing Roglic and Vingegaard was inspired. Poels and Theuns also picked up significant points for him.
I also had Vingeegard and gained good points from Groves. Losing Zana and Vine hit me hard as well as the underperformance of Ineos in GC terms.
Llani had Groves with Vlasov and Almeida getting in to 4 figures although they underperformed to expectations. Like me, Llani had Vine but also lost Dunbat and Scotson.
The final points for finishing can add quite a boost and it's not possible to lose 2-3 riders and be competitive.
Just to give an idea of how other Vuelta players on Velogames faired.
12835 points won. Kuss, Roglic, Evanpoel, Landa, Groves, Ganna, Poels all clocked big points. We all have work to do next time, when hopefully we will have more forumites involved.
Probably the Giro, but let's see if anything of interest pops up between now and then.
Thanks for taking the time to organise WP.
Looking forward to the next one, when hopefully one or two of the Forums cycling experts will join in ;), and I'll make sure that my thinking cap is on the right way around!
I'm waiting for the dope testers to find what is currently ruining the sport, and get a test for it to stamp it out.
I stopped watching the Vuelta, my favourite race, before the end as I was so sickened by what I was seeing; I haven't felt this bad about the 'sport' since watching the 1999 Tour de France ...
Thanks WP - hopefully get a few more takers on here next time round.
what specifically sickened you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
We were rubbish weren't we.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llani Boy
Any worse and the broom wagon would have got us :D
At least Pete had some respectability.
Where do you want me to start?Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Should I start with the 1-2-3 from a team on a road stage, something that I've never seen before in a grand tour? Or should I mention the second 1-2-3 from the same team a few days later?
Maybe I should mention the first 1-2-3 overall by a team in a grand tour since the 1928 Tour de France (I'm discounting the dodgy 1966 Vuelta, where only the Spanish Kas squad finished a full team amongst the 55 finishers, and put six riders in the top seven. [General Franco was still running a dictatorship at this time.]) Even Armstrong's Trek squad, who were doped up to their eyeballs, couldn't do a team 1-2-3.
It was probably the way three of their team waltzed off the front at will, making Evenepoel and Thomas (both grand tour winners), plus Ayuso, Landa, Mas and Vlasov, look like rubbish. Again and again.
They say it takes about two months to recover from a grand tour, so it is rare that a rider rides all three as the accumulated fatigue is so great. Kuss, however, rode all three and finished 14th, 12th and then 1st. Again, you can add that to the 'never seen before' list.
And then there is consistency. In clean racing riders have bad days, and in 2023 we've seen bad days from Pogačar, Evenepoel and Thomas (all grand tour winners). But one team doesn't seem to get bad days anymore
All in all, we have been seeing superhuman feats from the yellow and black team for two years. Not just one rider, but four with van Aert. And then you start to cast your mind to the last time you saw superhuman feats on a bike, and how that ended ...
You make a very good argument Marco, and there is nothing I would disagree with.
Whenever I watch many elite sports nowadays I often wonder if what I am seeing is really clean.
I am enjoying the Rugby World Cup but have you seen the size of the biceps on some of the players. I don't think they are the result of press ups and necking a few pints of raw eggs!
When my wife got her UK citizenship, one of the other people at the same citizenship ceremony at Leicestershire County Hall was a bloke from Samoa, called Manu Tualagi. He had also brought along a few of his mates from Leicester Tigers. I had never been that close to such enormous chunks of meat; I was left wondering what Mrs Tualagi had been feeding her children.Quote:
Originally Posted by Llani Boy
Wyn “sausage” Jones (wales and British lion) lives just down the road from here, he judged the sheep section at the village show over bank holiday - he’s big next to me!
Well there's a first time for everything!Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
Aren't you are over-reacting?Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco
Vingegaard and Roglic are 2 of the top 3 (with Pog) of what are a very good crop of Grand Tour riders with Kuss the best super-domestique currently in world cycling. Evanpoel might not be far behind, but he is behind on experience, form and age when it comes to a Grand Tour.
There's no surprise at their perfomance. Had they been 1-2 in GC or on any stages, no one would have raised an eyebrow.
On velogames, despite being in the same team (a red flag usually) Roglic and Vingegaard was the most popular GC pairing selection selected by 1,000s of armchair punters.
The Vuelta "surprise" was Kuss on the GC which came let's be clear came from his Stage 6 breakaway and an effort in the TT which he wouldn't normally push so hard on.
Has anyone heard why Evanpoel performed so poorly on Stage 13? That would be the big question mark for me. It turned the GC in to that 3 horse race between LJ riders.
On the day and following day no one offered an explanation and his management underlined it wasn't illness.
As for the rest, Landa is passed his best and his best was never good enough. Mas, Almeida and Thomas were the only other ones with the pedigree to suggest a potential podium if they put in a solid 3 weeks, but not one of them seemed in great form.
I have to say it's disappointing. I expected a great event, and whilst I enjoyed many of the stages, the overall was a done deal post Tourmalet.
No, I'm not over-reacting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Witton Park
What we've been seeing for the last two years are superhuman 'performances' from riders almost entirely from one team. For those who've been watching pro cycling for decades, it's like 1999 all over again.
Whilst you're entitled to believe whatever you want, here's the front cover from L'Equipe the day after Jonas Vingegaard had put a massive time gap into Tadej Pogačar, despite him convincingly beating the rest of the field in the time-trial. The headline is the same as L'Equipe used for Lance Armstrong in 1999, which makes it pretty clear as to what they think
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...fa93294a_c.jpg