Makes you proud to be British

I agree Chris.

I saw him on the ITV lunchtime news yesterday. To be absolutely honest this could really backfire.
He walked all over the journo that was questioning him and I can see thousands of people sat at home thinking "what's wrong with that?"

He made an extremely valid point where he refered to patients that are in hospital having to pay for TV.
Initially he was saying troops but
http://www.birminghammail.net/news/t...7319-24987531/
this came up!

Whether patients or troops he insisted that it was ludicrous that hospitals levied a charge whilst criminal scum got a free ride in prisons.

I cannot disagree with him on this.

In fact I have made the point on these forums about students at Uni paying for the privilege and coming out with debt, whilst criminals are costing us a fortune and we have no call on any of their future income.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

In fact I have made the point on these forums about students at Uni paying for the privilege and coming out with debt, whilst criminals are costing us a fortune and we have no call on any of their future income.

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So are you proposing people come out of jail with debt for watching TV?

"In my defense your honour, I was only stealing because I had to pay for my TV loan incurred during my previous 10-year stretch" ;)

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Originally Posted by noel

So are you proposing people come out of jail with debt for watching TV?

"In my defense your honour, I was only stealing because I had to pay for my TV loan incurred during my previous 10-year stretch" ;)

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I would say that he was proposing TV to be an inappropriate reward for criminals.

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

I would say that he was proposing TV to be an inappropriate reward for criminals.

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I did consider that, but WP, your wording does sound like you'd like to charge them retrospectively. Let's assume you were meaning they shouldn't have TV.


I think it's probably important for people in prison to have some link to cultural events in the outside world. After all, you are expecting them to re-integrate into society on release. That must be hard for those serving longer sentences.

I'd also like to prevent prisoners from going insane due to being locked in a small room for most of every day.

I think TVs are a cheap and easy way of achieving both these goals. The cost of a TV licence is also a drop in the ocean compared with the average £40,000 it costs to keep each person in prison for a year.

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Originally Posted by noel

I did consider that, but WP, your wording does sound like you'd like to charge them retrospectively. Let's assume you were meaning they shouldn't have TV.


I think it's probably important for people in prison to have some link to cultural events in the outside world. After all, you are expecting them to re-integrate into society on release. That must be hard for those serving longer sentences.

I'd also like to prevent prisoners from going insane due to being locked in a small room for most of every day.

I think TVs are a cheap and easy way of achieving both these goals. The cost of a TV licence is also a drop in the ocean compared with the average £40,000 it costs to keep each person in prison for a year.

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The whole point to prison is to punish offenders. Giving them some of the pleasures of the outside world sends out the wrong message.

As to going insane in a small cell, they should have thought about that before biffing the old lady on the head with a crow-bar.

Almost forgot the contradiction in your last paragraph.

Can everyone slow down please, i'm only on page 5 :D

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

I agree Chris.

I saw him on the ITV lunchtime news yesterday. To be absolutely honest this could really backfire.
He walked all over the journo that was questioning him and I can see thousands of people sat at home thinking "what's wrong with that?"

He made an extremely valid point where he refered to patients that are in hospital having to pay for TV.
Initially he was saying troops but
http://www.birminghammail.net/news/t...7319-24987531/
this came up!

Whether patients or troops he insisted that it was ludicrous that hospitals levied a charge whilst criminal scum got a free ride in prisons.

I cannot disagree with him on this.

In fact I have made the point on these forums about students at Uni paying for the privilege and coming out with debt, whilst criminals are costing us a fortune and we have no call on any of their future income.

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Regardless of whether he has a valid point on a certain issue, the fact is the central theme of the BNP is one of hatred and intolerance. I hope Griffin gets thoroughly shown up and ridiculed for the scumbag he is.

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Originally Posted by Muddy Retriever

Regardless of whether he has a valid point on a certain issue, the fact is the central theme of the BNP is one of hatred and intolerance. I hope Griffin gets thoroughly shown up and ridiculed for the scumbag he is.

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My thoughts exactly. The guy is a neo-nazi and as such has nothing to contribute

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Originally Posted by Trog

Why is there a Black Police Officers Federation?

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...and why isn't there a MOWO award?

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Originally Posted by TheHeathens

Anybody willing to 'fess up and admit they voted BNP?

I've seen only one person I know who admits to voting BNP - if they have respectable policies, why does everyone shy away from admitting they voted for them?

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One of my mates is staunch BNP, he's an member of the party although i'm not sure what that means exactly, i think it's just a 'fanclub' type thing.

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

The whole point to prison is to punish offenders.

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Not the whole point. Surely you'd want some attempts at rehabilitation? Also you'd like to prevent re-offending.

Anyway. Interesting though this little side discussion is into the reasons for prisons, I think we should clear the way for the deluge of posts on Nick Griffin's imminent appearance on Question Time.

I fear most of us will be disappointed - he seems pretty media-savy. I think he'll raise lots of sensible objections to the current system as a way to show the public how the BNP represent their concerns. I suspect he'll neatly side-step any direct questions on, for example, the BNP's policy of repatriation.

Courage on the battlefield is colour blind:cool:
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...cle2692246.ece

Have you seen these idiots on the news ? Is this what students do nowadays ? I suppose if they haven't received there over generous loan yet they can't be in the pub !
If this was in China they would be pulling plastic bullets out there arse ! Nice to see they are using there right to freedom of speech in protest at someone using that very right ! Irony personifed :(

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Originally Posted by Rodders rambler

Have you seen these idiots on the news ? Is this what students do nowadays ? I suppose if they haven't received there over generous loan yet they can't be in the pub !
If this was in China they would be pulling plastic bullets out there arse ! Nice to see they are using there right to freedom of speech in protest at someone using that very right ! Irony personifed :(

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How is a loan over generous? It's a bloody loan! It's paid back.

No wonder the country is in the state it is when we have people more tolerant of offenders than the future taxpayers of the country.

Go and knit some yoghurt:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by noel

So are you proposing people come out of jail with debt for watching TV?

"In my defense your honour, I was only stealing because I had to pay for my TV loan incurred during my previous 10-year stretch" ;)

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No - but what I would propose is that when they go to the grave that the state has claim to any of their estate.
Call it their debt to Society.

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How is a loan over generous? It's a bloody loan! It's paid back

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If i wanted a loan with no income i wouldn't get one....plus what rate of interest do they pay on the loan ? How much do they have to earn before they pay any of it back ?

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Originally Posted by Rodders rambler

If i wanted a loan with no income i wouldn't get one....plus what rate of interest do they pay on the loan ? How much do they have to earn before they pay any of it back ?

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15k before you have to pay it back.

Thank you Al :D

I think im abit of a rubbish student really.

I dont spend my money on drugs, prostitues, extreme amounts cheap and lethal of booze, buy or wear horrendously colourful clothes and have multicoloured hair with dozens of piercings in my face. I have also have never signed the 27 million petitions that i think got thought up after drink and drugs, chain myself to tree and i dont think go on rallys complaining about something which i have absolutely no chance of making a difference about.

End of term Report: Master Fowler could do better, more effort required:rolleyes::D

Not currently paying my student loan back yet, as i don't earn enough. Cushy. :)

But i am paying back my car loan and graduate loan. Not so cushy :(

You know this thing where you start paying back if you earn more than £15k. What happens if the student person never earns any money?

I only ask because my fella's ex went to uni for 4 years, racked up lots of debt (lots of which WE are now paying off :rolleyes: ) and rather than use her degree, she has turned into a baby making machine. (5 kids :eek::eek: ).

So what happens to her debts? I doubt she will ever work - well not a fully time job anyway.

To be honest - I feel quite nervous about Griffin being on Question Time - whilst the prospect of a baying audience tearing a strip off Griffin on prime-time TV might be an appealing one to some. What they are not taking into consideration is the fact that Griffin is thoroughly adept at rabble-rousing, and if he turns up banging a few of the party's populist drums - more jobs for british workers, extra funding for the army, etc - the whole thing could quite easily turn to his advantage.

If he voices these policies the loudest and mollifies the BNP's reprehensible social attitudes whilst doing so, before you know it you've got a chorus of spellbound ignorants giving him an ovation on national TV.:eek:

Interesting coverage of anti-fascist demonstrations on BBC teatime news. I don't think Griffin will get an easy ride from either the panel or audience this evening. Its one thing to give the odious bully a platform, its another allowing him to make the most of it

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Originally Posted by OneHillWonder

You know this thing where you start paying back if you earn more than £15k. What happens if the student person never earns any money?

I only ask because my fella's ex went to uni for 4 years, racked up lots of debt (lots of which WE are now paying off :rolleyes: ) and rather than use her degree, she has turned into a baby making machine. (5 kids :eek::eek: ).

So what happens to her debts? I doubt she will ever work - well not a fully time job anyway.

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You never pay it then i think, it just keeps accumulating interest.

In-fact it might get wiped eventually. There are ways and means of getting it wiped, such as leaving the country for 5 years etc etc...

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Originally Posted by Danbert

- more jobs for british workers, extra funding for the army, etc

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Has he nicked Gordon Brown's spiel then:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Rodders rambler

If i wanted a loan with no income i wouldn't get one....plus what rate of interest do they pay on the loan ? How much do they have to earn before they pay any of it back ?

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No income - no loan - so I take it that you would leave education at 18 - go get a job, save up for 15 years until you have enough money to go to Uni at the age of 33.......

18 years of age is the norm for kids to go to Uni. Hence they are likely to need a loan and have always had one.
I dare say Jack Straw did when he the NUS President.

Until 1997 that is when they brought in £3Kpa of tuition fees meaning that an extra 10K was added to the typical student debt.

That is unless Mum & Dad have deep pockets.

The loan interest is linked to the bank base rate - so if it goes up and down, so does the interest on the loan.

Even if you do not earn the 15K to trigger off repayments, the debt is still there.

As a taxpayer, I would rather fund a University Student through a successful degree / diploma course than fund a criminal to have a nice comfy cell.

Well i've just reached the end of this thread and what a marathon! Thanks to all participants it's been interesting. It's a shame people had to start falling out, but i really enjoyed Merry and Al's viagra break dealing with the War of the Roses. What was it all over anyway? was it a fight over who owned the Pennines? Tough, Cumbria's got them now :D we both lost :(

As for my opinion on the BNP, if Labour hadn't alienated so many of the people in this country then we probably wouldn't be typing now. Anyway when it comes to them ruling the country it's a bit of a storm in a teacup, they'll never get that far.

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Originally Posted by mr brightside

Well i've just reached the end of this thread and what a marathon! Thanks to all participants it's been interesting. It's a shame people had to start falling out, but i really enjoyed Merry and Al's viagra break dealing with the War of the Roses. What was it all over anyway? was it a fight over who owned the Pennines? Tough, Cumbria's got them now :D we both lost :(
As for my opinion on the BNP, if Labour hadn't alienated so many of the people in this country then we probably wouldn't be typing now. Anyway when it comes to them ruling the country it's a bit of a storm in a teacup, they'll never get that far.

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Haha i forgot about that....i'll have to flick back and find what we said.

Personally i think the war of the roses should be taught in school in yorkshire/lancashire....even if its only one lesson....because its a big thing in history and people are always going to remember it and bring it up. I bet 90% of the people in lancs/yorks dont even have a clue why there was a war...even i dont....but i have this idea in my head that it was about who got to have the red roses as their emblom....i guess lancashire won.:D

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No income - no loan - so I take it that you would leave education at 18 - go get a job, save up for 15 years until you have enough money to go to Uni at the age of 33.......

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Christ,if most people can pay off over half of there mortgage in that time i doubt they will need that much for 3 years of drinking !

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The loan interest is linked to the bank base rate - so if it goes up and down, so does the interest on the loan

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That is true,and some of the older loans that were linked to base rate are currently (due to the record low interest rates) shrinking without the person paying any of them off !

.....but of course these loans are not generous are they :eek:

I would like to see students save/work for 2 years then go to university.All out and done by 23.

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I only ask because my fella's ex went to uni for 4 years, racked up lots of debt (lots of which WE are now paying off ) and rather than use her degree, she has turned into a baby making machine. (5 kids ).

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Yep great isn't it !

Not everyone is in prison for biffing old ladies over the head.

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Originally Posted by Al Fowler

Haha i forgot about that....i'll have to flick back and find what we said.

Personally i think the war of the roses should be taught in school in yorkshire/lancashire....even if its only one lesson....because its a big thing in history and people are always going to remember it and bring it up. I bet 90% of the people in lancs/yorks dont even have a clue why there was a war...even i dont....but i have this idea in my head that it was about who got to have the red roses as their emblom....i guess lancashire won.:D

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As soon as i come along everyone disappears, perhaps they're frantically licking their wounds and preparing their lawsuits in readyness for the next installment after Question Time. Wonder if anyone's hired the legal team off The Simpsons?

Hey Al i'm off to the White Rose Centre in Leeds this weekend to drink some coffee and look at some clobber and rejoice in my Yorkshireness :p

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Originally Posted by mr brightside

As soon as i come along everyone disappears, perhaps they're frantically licking their wounds and preparing their lawsuits in readyness for the next installment after Question Time. Wonder if anyone's hired the legal team off The Simpsons?

Hey Al i'm off to the White Rose Centre in Leeds this weekend to drink some coffee and look at some clobber and rejoice in my Yorkshireness :p

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Oh no...not you as well.
Stay out'a my country then!:D

Hopefully it won't all kick off again after Question Time, it's dead sad when people resent eachothers opinions so much that they'll carry it on so far, especially when it's like minded people who should be mates.

F**k the BNP, they're entitle to their opinions but they'll never make it to government.

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Originally Posted by mr brightside

Hopefully it won't all kick off again after Question Time, it's dead sad when people resent eachothers opinions so much that they'll carry it on so far, especially when it's like minded people who should be mates.

F**k the BNP, they're entitle to their opinions but they'll never make it to government.

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Well said mr b;)

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Originally Posted by Grouse

Not everyone is in prison for biffing old ladies over the head.

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That's right.

I'm not, for a start.

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Originally Posted by Grouse

Not everyone is in prison for biffing old ladies over the head.

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Originally Posted by Tea

That's right.

I'm not, for a start.

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What are you in prison for then?:D

I thought I would go back to this thread as these issues are linked to it.

I found this first one very disappointing in the LET ysterday. It's the 2nd paragraph that does it for me really.
http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk...ashire_pupils/
"the Government’s 30 per cent target for five A*-C GCSEs including English and maths by 2011"

Can you really get much lower aspirations than this? Only 30% as a target!

then I read this today
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...lass-male.html

I can't argue with it very much.

The 2 articles are intrinsically linked. They demonstrate how current & previous Govts have devalued and destroyed our education to such an extent that it is now a Govt target for 70% of kids to be underperforming at the age of 16.
Also how much effort, mainly cosmetic, has been put in to helping the ethnic "communities" (I hate that term) whilst the white minimum wage/benefits class families are largely left to sink or swim.

Our Country is still a great country. Wherever I have been in the World, I am still glad to come back to the UK as I think we have the best deal.
But we are slipping slowly but surely and something has to be done before we slip too far.

My worry is, that I do not see anyone that is going to turn this slide in to a dip. The young need to aspire to something other than unemployment and an appearance on Jeremy Kyle.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

I thought I would go back to this thread as these issues are linked to it.

I found this first one very disappointing in the LET ysterday. It's the 2nd paragraph that does it for me really.
http://www.lancashiretelegraph.co.uk...ashire_pupils/
"the Government’s 30 per cent target for five A*-C GCSEs including English and maths by 2011"

Can you really get much lower aspirations than this? Only 30% as a target!

then I read this today
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/news...lass-male.html

I can't argue with it very much.

The 2 articles are intrinsically linked. They demonstrate how current & previous Govts have devalued and destroyed our education to such an extent that it is now a Govt target for 70% of kids to be underperforming at the age of 16.
Also how much effort, mainly cosmetic, has been put in to helping the ethnic "communities" (I hate that term) whilst the white minimum wage/benefits class families are largely left to sink or swim.

Our Country is still a great country. Wherever I have been in the World, I am still glad to come back to the UK as I think we have the best deal.
But we are slipping slowly but surely and something has to be done before we slip too far.

My worry is, that I do not see anyone that is going to turn this slide in to a dip. The young need to aspire to something other than unemployment and an appearance on Jeremy Kyle.

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Some of us do but others (more spoilt ones) expect it to be handed to them on a plate. For me the difference between working class british white males of the younger generation is that their parents have pushed to give them everything therefore the expect to be well kept thus they dont work hard and start to blame it on others...namely the government and then manage to scapegoat the ethnic minorities. The ethnic minorities have it hard but they appreciate the hard work and effort required to succeed, a lesson that could be taught to lots of these white working class males (only the young ones i hesistate to add). They are being made a scapegoat for the spoon feeding of the younger generation and thus the sample of ethnic minorities portrayed in the media is a select few who may be lazyor recieve incredible benefits that are stupidly high. But the fact remains that overall young people from ethnic minorities achieve higher (they are probably well within that 30%) than white working class children because they have a strong work ethic instilled from a young age.

I don't actually think it is a race issue - and never was - it's more of a class issue.

Take the Indian sub-continent. Amongst the lowest achievers are the Pakistani and Bangladeshi youth. But the Indian are amongst the highest achievers.
They are the same race.
The Indians are differing religions - so it's not linked to religion.

But the Indians are generally middle class business people. The Pakistani / Bangladeshi are working class. They came to work in the factories and those jobs are no longer there.

That's the same issue for the white working class.

The middle class in this country (generally) have a built in level of aspiration that is driven by parents, grandparents and taken up by the kids.

The working class - well there isn't really one anymore. It's really a benefits / low income / tax credits class.
What have they to aim for?

If they work and they try to earn more, they lose tax credits.

If they don't work, and take a job, they often lose out financially.

If they try hard to achieve at school, they often have no option other than a failing school.

The online LET article doesn't have the Stats but they are in the paper. They show that in 2009 Burnley and Padiham's best School achieved only 43% 5 A-C at GCSE with an average of 35%.
Blackburn had one school at 11% - that school doesn't even turn up for the Town Athletics or XC Champs - so not only are they failing at Academic subjects, they are failing in all areas.

If you end up at that 11% school, what are your chances?