Coronavirus

Having read Brummievets post, I have long wondered why people are prepared to pay sometimes very large amounts of money to have private health care for their pet dogs, cats, hamsters etc. yet any mention of fees for their own health is met with horror.
Perhaps the government should slap another penny on income tax and then nationalise the veterinary business, be a vote winner ;)

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Originally Posted by Stagger

Shit happens. Been through it before.

Could not have been avoided.

Lessons may be learnt but all in all I respect what the government has done.

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Bang on Stagger been there done that and come through it more than once (often with the unions help).

Behind you on the Government as well, their handling of the situation is fine with me after all they are in a cleft stick and as I have said before whatever they do, they will be damned if they do and damned if they don`t.

History will revel the answers, in the meantime relax enjoy life and as BORIS says BE AWARE:cool:

As an example of the nonsense in circulation and not only posted on here by the usual culprits, a university professor, perhaps sulking because he isn't a member of SAGE, stated on radio last week that he translated 'Be aware' as meaning 'Be scared'. Not really helpful, but then those sniping from the sidelines rarely contribute anything constructive. Neither do they possess all the facts or have to make complex decisions.
Similarly, the interpretation of Johnson's statement by such factions seems to bear little relation to the words I listened to directly. My translation, fwiiw, is that businesses, institutions, public services were being asked to review in detail how they might start limited operation again within the 'rules'. No 'you will return to normal asap under threat of fines or imprisonment' as some are implying, just letting people organise according to their specific circumstances.
I have direct knowledge that a school, which remained open for key workers children and vulnerable pupils has been reviewing and modifying its arrangements on a daily basis due to the number of variables involved. However, their overriding goal is for everyone to remain as safe as practical.
I also know that hospital appointments have been re-organised; waiting room capacity halved, seats re-arranged to enforce social distancing, obsessive cleaning of surfaces. A lot more people making a contribution than some parts of the media would have us believe.
I'm probably not the only one sick and tired of listening to criticism based entirely on hindsight.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

Teachers have been advised not to engage with Schools.

A risk assessment doesn't mean ensure safe, you can only reduce the level of risk by implementing control measures not ensure there isn't any risk.

You didn't spot that straw man because there wasn't one.

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Hi WP, yes it does in that those involved know and are prepared to deal with the risks

I work at a college and even with 16year olds and older. The building is not structurally made for the current guidelines.

Corridors are not wide enough, the workshop spaces are too confined. PPE is currently available but shared. Tools and equipment are shared.

There are approximately 120 different students use just our welding facilities weekly.

I fail to see how staff and students can be keep to reccomended guidance.

Risk assessment is all well and good but unless you have a very good knowledge of the risks and hazards it would be extremely had to write an assessment.

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Originally Posted by brummievet

My Mother in Law has metastatic breast cancer. She has received excellent private care from the Yorkshire Clinic over the last 7 years. Due to to SARS Cov2 policies and a recent deterioration she has been admitted to Bradford Royal Infirmary this week. Yorkshire Clinic has been given over to COVID apparently, although I’m not sure they have seen any cases. Her care has been nothing short of shite at BRI. She is not the sort of woman to complain, but she was left sat on a chair for 12 hours with abdominal pain and difficulty breathing whilst FOUR nurses sat there talking about their holidays and fannying about on their phones despite her constantly asking when she could have a bed to get some rest. She was told it was because they had to wait for a COVID test result and that the person who runs the tests had gone home! wouldn’t you think someone would be running these tests 24/7? I have furloughed vet nurses who could be trained to run these tests and would be willing to do so on a voluntary basis. This is the problem with the NHS, management is poor and there is no joined up thinking. She had a chest scan today to check for blood clots ( why they are focusing on blood clots is beyond me and I have plenty of medical knowledge) and they didn’t include her liver in the scan despite her having metastatic cancer here and pain in this area. I appreciate it may not change the outcome, but patients need to have a plan and after four days this is not forthcoming. I guarantee you that my canine patients receive better care than this ( and have done even in ‘normal times’). It’s time we realised private medicine is the way forward to save the wastage and poor management in the NHS and hold people accountable for their work. SARS CoV2 is becoming an excuse for poor care and demands for wage increases. It is not acceptable.

And yes, it will be the private sector that pays for the country to get back on its feet and it will be the private sector that takes the biggest hit in having to pay off the debts. Public sector pay will be protected whilst the wages of private sector workers are not guaranteed.

My five year old son has a benign bone tumour in his humerus. He needed an MRI last year under general anaesthesia. I had the foresight to take medical insurance out for the family some time ago, but as he needed a GA he had to go to Sheffield children’s hospital. It led to some issues regarding costs with our insurer. The Private Liaison manager at Sheffield admitted that the NHS have no idea what an MRI and GA actually costs and that they just plucked it out of thin air! I nearly fell over when he said this. If I didn’t know what it cost me to anaesthetise a dog and perform an MRI scan on it I’d be a) out of business and b) in trouble with most pet insurance companies. The whole thing is utterly ridiculous. And so is the case with schools. The evidence from many countries and studies suggests that children are low risk for catching the virus and spreading it. It’s time schools started the process of getting back to work properly. My Mum is a primary school teacher and thinks children should be going back now. They’ve had plenty of time to risk assess. I had to risk assess my workplace in a night after lockdown was announced. I was expected to be open to provide emergency treatment for animal welfare reasons and to ensure food chain supply. I’d rather have shut for a bit to be honest to take stock of the situation. There was no room for a ‘consultative process’ that plagues public sector industries. We just had to bloody well get on with it and use our common sense.

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Brummievet, I agree the schools should go back and I feel the same frustration with the amount of time it appears to be taking but I don't think its a case of get on with it I think we need to let them get through the process and agree what works for them.

Brummievet, I’m sorry to hear about your Mother in Law’s experience. It must have been very worrying & frustrating. I hope she (and your son) are doing Ok.

It’s hard to respond to such a heartfelt post and disagree with your main point about privatising the NHS, I’ll no doubt be branded as uncaring and heartless. So again, you have my sympathies. I’ve lost 3 close family members to cancer and It’s a terrible thing to go through.

However, for every example of poor care, inefficiencies, poor management etc there will be one that shows the opposite. Anecdotal evidence can’t really cut it in a debate about privatising the NHS.

Lots of studies have produced evidence that show that the NHS has good outcomes relative to spending. This is despite receiving less funding, per capita, than most other European countries. The US system costs twice as much per head than the NHS, and if you are poor then the outcomes are not good (they have a child mortality rate similar to some 3rd world countries). That’s what a privatised health care system could be like, especially with the government cosying up to the US for a post Brexit trade deal – and I was hoping to avoid the ‘B’ word (still, in for a penny…..).

As for the private sector taking a bigger hit than the public sector post covid, you’re probably right (initially). The public sector is, to a degree, protected from the turbulence of capitalism at it’s most ruthless as we are essentially employed by the government who aren’t going to go bust (we hope).

When it really starts to bite, people employed by the private sector in low paid, zero hour, insecure jobs may well be amongst the first to suffer. Not to mention the redundancies from more secure employment as the economy falters. There are going to be lots of personal tragedies. But society and the economy needs both the public & private sector.
Both have their role and contribute together to making the country work. It’s not a case of public = bad / private = good which seems to be the tone of a lot of posts on here (and my reason for chipping in in the first place).

So no, I don’t agree that private medicine is the way forward. Proper funding, a reformed tax system (yes, I want to pay more tax – I’d prefer it to clapping my support), less government meddling for the sake of it (from governments of all colours). Something more akin to the Northern European countries. Their types of social democracy seem to serve most of them rather well. It has to be better than this current lot and their vision of some neo liberal fantasy island.

Yes, we need to get kids back to school and schools are preparing. The school I work in are going through the process that it takes to get nearly 1000 people back to some sort of normality. I’m sorry, but that can’t happen overnight. Schools are working towards it as best they can, not to mention all the hub schools that have been open for key workers kids / vulnerable pupils – they were up and running within a week.

And before somebody tells me to ‘go and live somewhere in Northern Europe then’, I quite like it here – I just think it could be a bit better for all of us.

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Originally Posted by Stagger

I work at a college and even with 16year olds and older. The building is not structurally made for the current guidelines.

Corridors are not wide enough, the workshop spaces are too confined. PPE is currently available but shared. Tools and equipment are shared.

There are approximately 120 different students use just our welding facilities weekly.

I fail to see how staff and students can be keep to reccomended guidance.

Risk assessment is all well and good but unless you have a very good knowledge of the risks and hazards it would be extremely had to write an assessment.

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The point I was trying to make is that lateral thinking is required, because it is clearly not possible to carry on as before, at least for the foreseeable future. See also JackD's post.
Your college may well have to reduce class sizes, rotate lessons, introduce one way systems, implement strict cleaning procedures, and consider dozens of other factors. If after an extensive review, the building, lesson content, social distancing problems, etc. cannot be overcome, then the college will be unable to open. Although unlikely, at least the possibilities have been explored.

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Originally Posted by Witton Park

I can't disagree with you on anything. Hope your mother-in-law is OK, Someone will probably find a straw man in there somewhere :rolleyes:

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Since you're interested WP, there wasn't a strawman in there. I think you'll find it's an example of an anecdotal appeal to emotion;)

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Originally Posted by jackd

Proper funding, a reformed tax system (yes, I want to pay more tax – I’d prefer it to clapping my support), less government meddling for the sake of it (from governments of all colours). Something more akin to the Northern European countries. Their types of social democracy seem to serve most of them rather well. It has to be better than this current lot and their vision of some neo liberal fantasy island.

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Many think we do properly fund, but I'd consider looking at some of these Northern European models if you would consider moving to their style of health system, which isn't based on the NHS.

The Northern European systems are all mixed. They don't get spooked by private healthcare, insurance based systems, and I know plenty of right of centre people politically that would welcome us considering a move to systems like German, Swiss, Swedish, Norwegian... healthcare funding and structure.

The constant resistance is mindboggling to me.

But anyone who discusses such a consideration gets the US system chucked back at them. I don't know anyone advocating it as an example for us to follow.