Steam Bunny Bluff

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

James, I suspect I will want to arrange a further trackere loan soon. Will that be possible? Also, do you have any experience of sat phones?
My main concern is that I have to be 100% confident of being able to contact the safety refuges on the race. My worry is that it is unfeasible to test VHF performance ahead of the event so it would be a real gamble...admittedly the odds are favourable but I want to eradicate gamble in this one critical area. Essentially I am looking at a 4 node network...Race HQ and the 3 safety refuges....plus one mobile to the mobile search team.

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Yes you can borrow a tracker again (just need to get DW race out the way next weekend)
Radios - really appreciate what you are doing.. perhaps better for an email but I'll put it here as it seems to interest people. We have backpack repeater that will happily last for 4 days, just needs to be locked up to a fence post (I do sneak a tracker in the box in case someone try's to nick it as it is £2.5k worth).

Two options on my visits down south I drop it off for a few days and you try it out in situ - a reasonable amount of work to put it up and get radios to each of your key locations but if like me communications is serious then its worth doing. Fortunately for you you only have to do it the once. The other option is that I do have some software that does predict the coverage of the repeater. Its helpful for identifying the optimum location for the repeater, but its a bit of arse to use and nothing is better than doing it for real. Again for testing happy to lend this kit for free. Its not cheap stuff, but it is reliable.

I do like the trend of the thread and happy to help with my knowledge.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

James, I suspect I will want to arrange a further trackere loan soon. Will that be possible? Also, do you have any experience of sat phones?
My main concern is that I have to be 100% confident of being able to contact the safety refuges on the race. My worry is that it is unfeasible to test VHF performance ahead of the event so it would be a real gamble...admittedly the odds are favourable but I want to eradicate gamble in this one critical area. Essentially I am looking at a 4 node network...Race HQ and the 3 safety refuges....plus one mobile to the mobile search team.

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Oh and yes I do have experience of Sat phones, have hired a few for events and in a previous life use to buy them for International Aid Agencies. If you really must, Iridium not Thurya. And yes data is a reasonable cost but hiring a satphone is at least £150 without even using it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

James, I suspect I will want to arrange a further trackere loan soon. Will that be possible? Also, do you have any experience of sat phones?
My main concern is that I have to be 100% confident of being able to contact the safety refuges on the race. My worry is that it is unfeasible to test VHF performance ahead of the event so it would be a real gamble...admittedly the odds are favourable but I want to eradicate gamble in this one critical area. Essentially I am looking at a 4 node network...Race HQ and the 3 safety refuges....plus one mobile to the mobile search team.

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I have been looking at the networks:

iridium : the basis of those trackers, has the beneift of a whopping 66 satellites, but problems in that the satellites are relatively low to the horizon, and also not geostationary, so signals come and go: but they bill iridium as the military/mission critical solution. That may be because of the sheer number of satellites in that network. Iridium reception apparently sounds a bit stephen hawking/robotic ish. The fact that satellites drop in and out, could be the problem for continuous tracking which would end up hopping satellites.

inmarsat and thuraya
seem much of a muchness: both have several geostationary satellites much higher above the horizon - they are several tens of thousands miles up. SO presumably in areas there is contact ( no tall things between you and that specific sat), it is solid and reliable.Thuraya does not cover the US but covers the eurasia landmass.inmarsat claim to be the most reliable and have the best voice quality.

One problem of these networks is the fact that the satellites may be high - but they are also in essence equatorial, so the further north you go, the lower the satellites are in the sky. Where iridium are in essence polar. So in principle at least where we are in the UK...favours iridium - but satellites dropping in and out of view is inevitable because they are not geostationary.


Thuraya handhelds seem to be a bit lighter, indeed there is a product "sat sleeve" on thuraya which is in effect an outer cover for an iphone giving your iphone "sat" capability. But the price of that is not vastly different to a full blown thuraya phone.

Both inmarsat and thuraya have pay as you go cards - what I dislike about the inmarsat is the shortlifetime of credits which expire if not used after a couple of months, where thuraya credits seem to last longer. Cursory comparison of call rates hints inmarsat credits are worth more in call minutes.

Where iridium has both tracker and phone products, I can only see full blown phones on thuraya and inmarsat.

Of the inmarsat phones the isatphone2 is IP65 (waterproof) and is robust and shock rated = more so than its predecesso isat phone, which are variously £460 and £640 as we speak.

In thuraya the XT is only IP54 (splashproof) at £570 - interestingly there is an XT dualband for an eye watering £870 that doubles as sat phone and mobile - but that is the same functionality as a sat sleeve. But as we all know...iphones dont like water. I have a pain in my back pocket because of that!

Cutting to the chase, the only way of knowing whether the theory of clear line of site to satellites works in practice is to try them on location, and before use in a safety critical situation that should certainly be done.

For rental mobell.co.uk look a good place to start
Looks like the cost is £10 a day, minimum 7 day rental. Dont know if anywhere else is cheaper.

Here is their version of the thuraya vs inmarsat bs iridium argument...
http://www.mobell.co.uk/buyer-guides...m-vs-inmarsat/

Looking forward a bit - to the possibility of using sat more widely in "wild" races. Assuming these things are any good...then the cost of buying four of them, plus an assumption of running costs (so double it) amortized over 25 races a year for 3 years would be (say) £50 to an RO - so over a field of 100 people in effect adds 50p per person to the cost of a race - certainly less than £1p per person. That sounds acceptable to me..what do others think?

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Originally Posted by howfast

Oh and yes I do have experience of Sat phones, have hired a few for events and in a previous life use to buy them for International Aid Agencies. If you really must, Iridium not Thurya. And yes data is a reasonable cost but hiring a satphone is at least £150 without even using it.

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James -

Cutting to the chase.
If you had mission critical communications that HAD to work in the hills. - your life depended on it
What is the SINGLE piece of equipment YOU would personally choose to give the highest likelihood of comms in english/welsh mountain areas - are you saying it would be an iridium satphone or something else?

PS the sat hire websites seem to indicate that £70 a week with no hidden extras inc free delivery is the base price - an extra tenner for most risks insurance.

http://www.mobell.co.uk/satellite-phones/rent/
If the base price is 150 What are we not seeing here?

Not after an argument - just want to get the facts.

This probably needs its own thread. It is derailing SBB a bit, except in as far as Wheeze might decide these things have a role in the race.

The wider issue is less whether hire is economic for one race : rather it is whether the acquisition of a few to loan out to ROs in the difficult races/ comms areas makes economic sense when amortized over a couple of years, with a score of races each year: since the sums hint that can be a lot less than £1 per person per race is possible for fields of 100 or more . The hire of 3 for SBB (even on the assumption of £70 ea) is £2-3 per person which is too high on ongoing basis, except as one experiment to prove the technology works.

Globalstar phones are £33 per week. £1.50 per min outgoing, free incoming.
I will be trying one!

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Originally Posted by Wheeze

Globalstar phones are £33 per week. £1.50 per min outgoing, free incoming.
I will be trying one!

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The market is hotting up. The old players have had it too cosy.
Check out this a new constellation of 24 sats in the last year

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...ite-wi-fi.html

More importantly this..

"Lower Prices

Within two years, Sat-Fi should be less expensive than a conventional smartphone, Globalstar CEO James Monroe III said in an interview.

“You could take your Apple phone or your Windows computer or your Amazon Kindle or any device, and have instant access to medical help or education -- or have fun and call a friend,” Monroe said. “Since people want to stay connected, they are all potential customers of ours.” About 2 billion people worldwide don’t have access to normal wireless service, he said."

I think sat tracking by sat comm will become economic very shortly - and if so, may well become the standard for racing such as ours. FRA should be leading in testing such things. Certainly would if I was the safety officer.

AI, James et al. I'm more than happy for this discussion to continue on this thread since its an intrinsic reason for why I am creating the race.
Now, it would be great to arrange a competitive test.
James, are you going to use VHF to link organisers for Itera? If so, have you tested it in the Brecon Beacons? If not are you planning to? can we piggy back this race onto that testing programme? What do you think about bringing sat comms to your UK org if these new lower prices are coming in?

As you know, I will be inviting FRA to formally observe this race. So, perhaps they might like to think about opening a full discussion on race comms on the General sub section? I will plough on....my initiative etc etc!!!

Sat phones I stand corrected - I rented 2 for the TERREX in 2012 in Scotland but we had them for 10 days with Insurance and at the time they did lob a whack on for delivery. Prices have come down and they chuck in delivery. Still they didn't get used and I'm happy about that.

In answer to your question. what would I use, without question VHF. Thinking about the kind of incidents you need response on as well as the general management of an event. I want the ability to communicate with all people on the event not just one who happens to have a sat phone.

I also believe that you can do with less marshals if you have good communications. The ones you have are far more effective in their role if they understand the bigger picture of what is going on with the event. Adding trackers also takes that to a new level.

The only disadvantage is that communication is public so if it is a sensitive incident be it medical or race related (e.g think we need DQ x) then phone needs to be used.

Wheeze I'm not planning on testing in the brecons (can't even say if ITERA will got there). But I am travelling to cardiff a few times in the coming months and I'm happy to bring this kit down for you to try out.

I have handled 4 or 5 Thurya phones over the years.. never used one though as none of them worked! the do feel like a fisher price toy. That was a few years ago but as already said there is a reason why many companies / military use Iridium.

Feel free to email me if anyone has any specific questions. James(at)openadventure.com

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Originally Posted by howfast

In answer to your question. what would I use, without question VHF. Thinking about the kind of incidents you need response on as well as the general management of an event. I want the ability to communicate with all people on the event not just one who happens to have a sat phone.

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On this issue - I think you have it back to front.

VHF radios only communicate with other VHF radios - so therefore limited.

The sat phones can communicate with anyone with any kind of a phone that has a signal. (most people) and anyone with a phone with signal can ring the satphone.

Globalsat made that statement of intent. Within 2 years sat will be cheaper than smart phones (although - just like the early roll outs of such as ADSL expect that there will be a lot of traffic volume problems when use ramps up.

VHF are line of sight, and are subject to interference, thermoclines , humidity and so on: and because of weather influence, what works at time of testing, does not nececsarily at time of use. UHF and low frequency Microwaves are more vulnerable as per mobile phones, but that is only a matter of degree not principle. Actually for signals diffracting to bend around corners old fashioned CB radio frequencies had a bit of an advantage there - [joke] and to go all the way round the world, short waves are useful. So ask runners to carry a 100m bright yellow antenna with them. Then you could see them!!! [/joke]

One of the worst aspects of VHF radios is handling them in wind. If you cannot hear you shout and that makes the problem worse both ways. ie the conditions you really need them in is the most compromised, and such as the Yacht Association warn you of those limitations.


So I wonder whether safety is best handled by text message anyway - first because it can be read asynchronously if connection drops at time of typing - second because it can be read several times , not just heard once so there are no mishearing errors implicit. And on all networks texting is cheaper than talking!


So the ideal world for safety of competitors might be the sat tracker/sat communicator that has text provision. Which in time will be (a) cheap (b) easily hidden in the corner of a bumbag.

All I am suggesting is a trial. Not to base the future on them until they are proven, all good practice needs proving before dissemination to discover the limitations of use.

Guess its based on experience - we generally deal with incidents ourselves, be it lost runners / turned ankles / simple breaks or just logistics of the event. VHF with a repeater suitably located covers our events more than adequately and I'd argue gives significantly better response times than people with sat phones / mobiles. There is always someone with a handset and mobile that is in range who can call for outside assistance if it is required.

Only once I can think of where high winds and rain inhibited the use of a radio on Robinson but that would have been the same for a phone. I guess as you say text would help. For me the benefits of all event com's and response times to incidents far out way the issue of wind :-)

If I really thought this was an issue I'd buy a throat mic and ear piece. I used one in a very noisy environment once and it did a great job.