Can we trust the police?

https://www.bild.de/politik/inland/p...5486.bild.html

Point 11 on here might be debatable given the question posited by this thread, but I'm broadly in agreement with the rest of it, if it were to apply here too.

Obviously, these questions are now increasingly pertinent and are actively being reflected upon currently by many countries across Europe, Asia and the Americas given the October 7th atrocities and the rise of anti-semitism (racism)and vocal extremist support for neo-Nazi beliefs. Ironic when the Remembrance weekend was to remember those who gave their lives in actively fighting such evil.

What did the Police do in 1930s Germany when such marches occurred? If they and the population had been more resistant would WW2 been averted? What did the Police do in 1936 when the Black shirts and black flag wavers marched into Cable Street with Mosley and his supporters?

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Originally Posted by Mossdog

https://www.bild.de/politik/inland/p...5486.bild.html

Point 11 on here might be debatable given the question posited by this thread, but I'm broadly in agreement with the rest of it, if it were to apply here too.

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It may be a case of translation errors, but how Bild's manifesto reads is just going to pour petrol on the current situation

Point 4 is racist
Point 6 is offensive to some religions
Point 11 is highly debatable
Point 13 allows for police brutality
Point 15 goes against what is written in the bible
Point 31 discriminates against some religions
Point 42 is offensive to many religions
Point 43 is highly questionable

All in all, it's an offensive and pretty **** article, the sort of thing you'd expect the National Front to write

I don't agree with several points, but the message should be, these are our values, laws, ethics.....

I'd sum it up though as:

Don't like it? Don't come here to settle and then make demands that are not aligned with us here.

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Originally Posted by Marco

It may be a case of translation errors, but how Bild's manifesto reads is just going to pour petrol on the current situation

Point 4 is racist
Point 6 is offensive to some religions
Point 11 is highly debatable
Point 13 allows for police brutality
Point 15 goes against what is written in the bible
Point 31 discriminates against some religions
Point 42 is offensive to many religions
Point 43 is highly questionable

All in all, it's an offensive and pretty **** article, the sort of thing you'd expect the National Front to write

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I'm sorry you found the idea/manifesto offensive Marco, that wasn't the intention at all, and some of the objections you raised I think go to the heart of the matter about the nature of societies- everywhere on the planet.

I was listening to a debate recently, that looked at the topic of multiculturalism defined as:

"multiculturalism: The doctrine that several different cultures (rather than one national culture) can coexist peacefully and equitably in a single country."

I'd never considered the full implications of multiculturalism in detail before but saw it previously as having a strength based on diversity. Of course, that isn't what it means, and I think we're experiencing some of the problems when we have had (only recently) some large increases in immigration from very different, even contrasting cultural beliefs.

A point was made that what we might consider is 'multi-ethnicity (ism!!)" , where a country can be made up of lots of people from varying and diverse ethnic/cultural groups, but that there is an overarching, and inclusive culture to a country that people subscribe too. As such, the strength of diversity is valued but social cohesion and, importantly, the avoidance of 'ghettos'. Language learning is respectful to your host country as when people can communicate they can negotiate and understand each other better. I think that's what we've had for many hundreds of years in this country, with people settling from all over the world, but largely subscribing to and, significantly in turn, evolving the country's culture that people contribute too. I think that's what has been missing recently, as there has been such phenomenal changes with no time to evolve and has caused some of the issues we're seeing currently with marked divisions of ideas and beliefs, some of which are intolerant, even martial all in their foundation and proselytising. 'WE' have been a Judeo-Christian culture traditionally, and even though secularism seems to be widespread now, the echos of those underlying philosophies for understanding the world and the country remain. These are largely about tolerance for others.

As Karl Pepper posited:The paradox of tolerance - states that if a society's practice of tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that, in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.

"As Karl Pepper posited:The paradox of tolerance - states that if a society's practice of tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that, in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance."

It is a bit like fighting for peace - sometimes it is necessary.

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Originally Posted by Mike T

It is a bit like fighting for peace - sometimes it is necessary.

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Exactly.

Worth a read. Selling Illusions: The Cult Of Multiculturalism In Canada. Neil Bissoondath

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mossdog

Language learning is respectful to your host country as when people can communicate they can negotiate and understand each other better. I think that's what we've had for many hundreds of years in this country, with people settling from all over the world, but largely subscribing to and, significantly in turn, evolving the country's culture that people contribute too. I think that's what has been missing recently...

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Is that true? My perception is that recent immigration has been predominantly from Europe, and predominantly by people who share many aspects of "Judeo-Christian culture". This is in contrast to the immigration the UK experienced in the 1960s, which was largely from ex-empire countries.

I like your Karl Pepper reference. It's a good point. We shouldn't let intolerance drive the agenda.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mossdog

Language learning is respectful to your host country as when people can communicate they can negotiate and understand each other better. I think that's what we've had for many hundreds of years in this country, with people settling from all over the world, but largely subscribing to and, significantly in turn, evolving the country's culture that people contribute too. I think that's what has been missing recently, as there has been such phenomenal changes with no time to evolve and has caused some of the issues we're seeing currently with marked divisions of ideas and beliefs, some of which are intolerant, even martial all in their foundation and proselytising. 'WE' have been a Judeo-Christian culture traditionally, and even though secularism seems to be widespread now, the echos of those underlying philosophies for understanding the world and the country remain. These are largely about tolerance for others.

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According to the 2021 census, the Welsh speaking population in Wales, aged three or older, was 17.8 percent. Your logic implies that over 82 percent of the population is disrespectful.

Switzerland, a country that has been very successful at avoiding wars and conflict, has four official languages. It we want to find a model for peace, we should look at a country that is good at it rather than take a discriminatory/racist approach to it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marco

According to the 2021 census, the Welsh speaking population in Wales, aged three or older, was 17.8 percent. Your logic implies that over 82 percent of the population is disrespectful.

Switzerland, a country that has been very successful at avoiding wars and conflict, has four official languages. It we want to find a model for peace, we should look at a country that is good at it rather than take a discriminatory/racist approach to it.

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Mmmh. I've never regarded the Swiss as particularly admirable - although they do build good railways and make some fine watches.

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Originally Posted by noel

Is that true? My perception is that recent immigration has been predominantly from Europe, and predominantly by people who share many aspects of "Judeo-Christian culture". This is in contrast to the immigration the UK experienced in the 1960s, which was largely from ex-empire countries.

I like your Karl Pepper reference. It's a good point. We shouldn't let intolerance drive the agenda.

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I'm not sure what you question the truth of Noel.

On the immigration figures, recently, since covid, the non EU immigration has roughly trebled from it's pre pandemic level to Q4 2022. The highest are now from India.

Going back to 1991, non EU immigration has been higher ever year except 3.

I don't have the breakdown by country, but the 3 years 2013-15 where EU migration was higher were the first 3 years that Romania and Bulgaria were allowed fill access to the UK Labour market.