land of giants

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

Welcome to the thread Trimm.

Politics is not a primary, it's dependent on ethics(moral code).Ethics is dependent on philosophy(i.e a view of Mans nature).If a Man believes that humans are intrinsically evil, he will naturally support a political system that controls and regulates human behaviour.

The truth is, that Man by his nature is neither good or evil.This is because his consciousness is volitional(i.e choice).

I believe that given freedom (Freedom in a political context means-freedom from the initiation of physical force) Humans will pursue the right course.They will make mistakes on the way, but in the long term they'll succeed.This is because the capitalist system, punishes irrationality and evil.

We need to introduce a bill of rights, to protect the individual from the most dangerous criminal-the Government.(Today we hear all sorts of groups claiming all sorts of rights:Disabled rights,gay rights,Women's rights,racial rights,the right to free medical care,education etc).(Actually no such group rights exist.Only the rights of the individual exist).

Before we introduce the bill of rights, we'd have to start deregulating the economy.Next, reduce all social security payments month by month, very gradually.At the same time taxes should be lowered at the same rate as social payments.This together with deregulation will stimulate business activity and capital investment.New jobs will be created, not just by the indigenous business community, but by foreign investors, anticipating the bill of rights.

Once the constitution is in place, all property will be private.If you want medical care or education for your children, go onto the open market and compete for them, just as the doctors and teachers will compete for your business.

As I consider the initiation of physical force immoral, all taxes would be voluntary and only paid for proper government services.These services are the Police(selfdefence from criminals), the military(selfdefence from foreign threats) and the law courts(so people who disagree can settle their disputes peacefully).

People would be willing to finance these institutions voluntarily, because they would affect their interests directly.

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Christopher Leigh have you been watching "City of Vice" which concerns the foundation of England's first police force, The Bow Street Runners, in the eighteenth century. Your vision of a free society seems to fairly describe conditions in the country at that time. Rich men gave voluntarily in order to protect themselves from gangs of footpads who terrorised the community. The Sun Insurance symbols you sometimes see on the outside of old buildings similarly were there to indicate to private fire brigades which fires they should put out and which people were subscribers and therefore entitled to be rescued.
It didn't take long for a majority of the rich, who are people and therefore( I agree with you) capable of moral choice, to start thinking that these services should be available to the rest. Gradually the services evolved and eventually became in its various and changing forms a welfare state. The state is just another club (like the FRA) formed by free people for their mutual benefit. What's difficult about that?
If you want to go back to turnpikes and private militias you're going to have to use force because not many people are going to agree with you. Come to think of it somebody did try that in America, remember the Oklahoma bombing of a civic building devoted to welfare? Yeah come to think of it there are quite a few nutters over there who equate freedom with gun possession and not paying taxes. Do you realise who you're lining yourself up with? Scary!
I don't want to be fingerprinted and I'd rather keep the colour of my irises secret. I think government has got rather too much interest in my private business and I don't expect them to make quite as many cock ups as they have recently. But no government? No order? As I've said before I'm a teacher and in my experience when the adults move out the bullies move in.
You come over as if you speak from some sort of philosophical high ground but to me almost all of what you say sounds like a teenager who's just discovered argument.

Which bit of the 19th century was America almost free in - the bit when they were killing each other or the bit when they were killing the indigenous population?

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'free rider' problem - if it was only voluntary, there's nothing to stop somebody not paying their share and getting a free ride off of those that do

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That sounds familiar,where have i heard that before ?? Oh yeah its the welfare state again.Even the government admits that 2/3 of people on incapacity benefit could get to work ! We all know someone who takes the pi** and claims incredible sums off the back of other peoples hardwork.It is also reflected in business.The company i work for cut sick pay by half after 6 months.Its amazing how quick they return perfectly able days after the 6 months is up.

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Originally Posted by Trimm Trab

Christopher,

Thanks for the comprehensive reply to my last post, I've got to take you to task on a couple of points though...

Firstly, I can't agree with your contention that 'the capitalist system punishes irrationality and evil' - there are plenty of companies (and not a few British) that are doing very well from flogging arms and torture equipment to the more odious regimes we see in power.

Secondly, thinking that people would voluntarily pay taxes to support the police etc is, I think, rather naive, and flying in the face of basic economic theory. To have only voluntary taxation would present a classic 'free rider' problem - if it was only voluntary, there's nothing to stop somebody not paying their share and getting a free ride off of those that do. Since the most basic tenet of economics is that people act in their own self interests (sound familiar?), there will be plenty of people who don't pay their dues in the hope of getting a free ride and the system wouldn't get off the ground. This type of free rider problem can be observed in many different settings (the inactivity of companies' minority shareholders springs to mind), and the outcome is always the same - if you think someone else will make an effort or fork out cash, then you don't have to, but if you think they won't, then why should you be the mug to do it? You just couldn't have taxation without compulsion.

I can't believe that you seriously think that people can be organised in the way you suggest without the situation turning very ugly indeed.

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Trimm if a weapons manufacturer here, sells ammunitions etc to a country, that then drops those bombs on the same factories;I'd say that that was a punishment for being irrational!

In the system I described, the government would have the right to stop weapons manufacturers from selling to our enemies.That would be proper, because the sellers of these weapons would be aiding and abetting murder.No one has the right to murder.

There would be some in society that wouldn't pay voluntary taxes.The wealthiest people would pay the most, why?Because they have the most to lose, by not having adequate legal protection.Just look at the looting that goes on when a country turns to anarchy.

The other point is, funding proper government doesn't cost that much!It's a tiny fraction of the amount we're taxed today.There are many ways to implement voluntary taxation, without any problems whatsoever.

Regards

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Originally Posted by Guick Dotto

Christopher Leigh have you been watching "City of Vice" which concerns the foundation of England's first police force, The Bow Street Runners, in the eighteenth century. Your vision of a free society seems to fairly describe conditions in the country at that time. Rich men gave voluntarily in order to protect themselves from gangs of footpads who terrorised the community. The Sun Insurance symbols you sometimes see on the outside of old buildings similarly were there to indicate to private fire brigades which fires they should put out and which people were subscribers and therefore entitled to be rescued.
It didn't take long for a majority of the rich, who are people and therefore( I agree with you) capable of moral choice, to start thinking that these services should be available to the rest. Gradually the services evolved and eventually became in its various and changing forms a welfare state. The state is just another club (like the FRA) formed by free people for their mutual benefit. What's difficult about that?
If you want to go back to turnpikes and private militias you're going to have to use force because not many people are going to agree with you. Come to think of it somebody did try that in America, remember the Oklahoma bombing of a civic building devoted to welfare? Yeah come to think of it there are quite a few nutters over there who equate freedom with gun possession and not paying taxes. Do you realise who you're lining yourself up with? Scary!
I don't want to be fingerprinted and I'd rather keep the colour of my irises secret. I think government has got rather too much interest in my private business and I don't expect them to make quite as many cock ups as they have recently. But no government? No order? As I've said before I'm a teacher and in my experience when the adults move out the bullies move in.
You come over as if you speak from some sort of philosophical high ground but to me almost all of what you say sounds like a teenager who's just discovered argument.

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Guick if the FRA forced you to pay for other peoples race entry fees, would you still want to belong to it?And what if it wanted you to supply the plasters and bandages for peoples injuries?Or perhaps the food and drinks for after the race?Or even the transport to take everyone home again?

Guick you'd be out of the FRA in a second.Well what I described is the current state of the UK.If the FRA demanded all of the above you'd never join.Where there is no individual rights there is no(civillised) society.

One last point, I never said no government,no order.And yes it's about time someone took the philosophical high ground.

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Originally Posted by Grouse

Which bit of the 19th century was America almost free in - the bit when they were killing each other or the bit when they were killing the indigenous population?

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The bit where people could create and produce without repression!

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Originally Posted by Rodders rambler

That sounds familiar,where have i heard that before ?? Oh yeah its the welfare state again.Even the government admits that 2/3 of people on incapacity benefit could get to work ! We all know someone who takes the pi** and claims incredible sums off the back of other peoples hardwork.It is also reflected in business.The company i work for cut sick pay by half after 6 months.Its amazing how quick they return perfectly able days after the 6 months is up.

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Rodders I agree with you.And while they're off you're doing their share.Sounds like maternity leave!!

They never created and produced without repression. A system of slavery was in operation.

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Originally Posted by christopher leigh

Guick if the FRA forced you to pay for other peoples race entry fees, would you still want to belong to it?And what if it wanted you to supply the plasters and bandages for peoples injuries?Or perhaps the food and drinks for after the race?Or even the transport to take everyone home again?

Guick you'd be out of the FRA in a second.Well what I described is the current state of the UK.If the FRA demanded all of the above you'd never join.Where there is no individual rights there is no(civillised) society.

One last point, I never said no government,no order.And yes it's about time someone took the philosophical high ground.

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Christopher I don't mind if some of my subscription goes towards funding development and navigation courses (education) even though they are no use to me personally or insurance or this website where people can say things I disagree with. I have no problem with making a contribution towards the common good. I daresay people rip the FRA off, there's always somebody. But it doesn't mean I want to disband it and only have races with my friends. It infuriates me that people rip the welfare state off. What they do is after all against the law. But I don't want to set fire to the ship I'm sailing on to get rid of the rats in the hold.

another new one i got given yesterday and this is typical of the way we have gone.
yesterday the rates man came round to see our factory , we have built new offices as an add on but taken them out of the factory, and the offices are smaller. so in theory i said to the council rates man we should pay less.
yep your totally correct darren

yessssssssssssssss i thought 1-0 to daz , come on mr council man lets have a rebate

any way he gets his electronic laser tape out and has a measure up. he then comes back and says yes you get a rebate but have you ever paid rates on your overhead gantry cranes.
errrr no i reply , well they are rateable and your compressor also

FFs :confused: :confused: how the hell can an overhead crane be rateable????
anyway our rates are 12,000 per year to which they dont even collect the bins.

so basically my company have to pay the council 12,000 per annum and then £70 a week to a private contractor to take our waste away.

i just dont get the whole set up any more i really dont??

cmon guys lets not have a row about how the west was won , keep it simple